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Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 100

Broly is "probably" stronger, so it's more like a =< Beerus.

Belmond being stronger than Beerus was in reference to an arm wrestle (and since the anime and manga share notes, it was probably a reference to Quitela). Whis was saying that in a teasing tone regardless.
 
Greenshifter said:
Should we argue SSJBE is a 1000 times multiplier?
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In the anime? Pretty sure that's already accepted. It's been stated to equal X20 Blue which is 1000x SSG. In the manga? Good luck with that.

Honestly, I think the scaling with multipliers is a bit off anyways. Say it's accepted that SS3 is an at least 200x multiplier. SSG is obviously stronger than that. We have multiple statements that SSB is just Super Saiyan on top of God. 50 x 200 = 10,000.

So, at minimum SSB should be treated as a 10,000x multiplier. That's just using what the wiki already accepts.
 
Tyranno223 said:
Broly is "probably" stronger, so it's more like a =< Beerus.

Belmond being stronger than Beerus was in reference to an arm wrestle (and since the anime and manga share notes, it was probably a reference to Quitela). Whis was saying that in a teasing tone regardless.
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Who do you trust more? Whis or the guy who has bullshitted about his power level before?
 
Greenshifter said:
Vegeta Blue was portrayed as equal to SSJG Goku (not Blue) in the fight against Agnilasa.
Click to expand...
And that is immediately disputed by their performance against Jiren. Plus being in the same form to fight the same foe does not mean they are =. Unless you posit that Final Form Frieza = SSJ God Goku (which is certainly a no).
 
Sir_Marvulous said:
Because his fight with Saigo Gohan is stated to be the strongest battle in history, with the latter being stated the strongest warrior, and other promotional material calling him the strongest. And Cell Max was so powerful that Gohan decided to target his weak point with a fully charged Special Beam Cannon (something that is stronger than one's normal maximum ki output), which supports him being the second strongest

Base Gohan fought on par with a casual Gamma 1 who is already Broly Saga SSB level while holding back a massive extent of his power as stated by Piccolo, and the Namekian is equal to Gohan for making him reel with a punch. Super Saiyan Gohan fought on par with a Gamma 1 who using more of his power but was still holding back
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Aint questioning anything bc it looks pretty much straightforward but damn base saiyans and piccolo being on broly arc ssb level is just💀💀💀💀
 
Omegas03 said:
Aint questioning anything bc it looks pretty much straightforward but damn base saiyans and piccolo being on broly arc ssb level is just💀💀💀💀
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Piccolo being that strong isn't weird considering he's usually portrayed as comparable to Saiyan transformations

Base Gohan being that strong IS weird but literally his only feats are against other Broly Movie SSB level characters so it has to be that way
 
Tyranno223 said:
And that is immediately disputed by their performance against Jiren. Plus being in the same form to fight the same foe does not mean they are =. Unless you posit that Final Form Frieza = SSJ God Goku (which is certainly a no).
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How does their performance against Jiren contradict it? They should be comparable as either Goku or Vegeta participating in the shared ki blast would be pointless otherwise. Frieza gets random power-ups all the time and the same reasoning applies to him yeah. Funnily enough I was wrong (and nobody pointed this out in the past year or so) and Goku actually powered up to blue which gives a big jump in power for everyone else, though I guess you could make the argument that Goku was still recovering his stamina at this point.
 
Greenshifter said:
How does their performance against Jiren contradict it? They should be comparable as either Goku or Vegeta participating in the shared ki blast would be pointless otherwise. Frieza gets random power-ups all the time and the same reasoning applies to him yeah. Funnily enough I was wrong (and nobody pointed this out in the past year or so) and Goku actually powered up to blue which gives a big jump in power for everyone else, though I guess you could make the argument that Goku was still recovering his stamina at this point.
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Wait, you were comparing their performance against Anilaza? I was giving the benefit of the doubt and assuming Vegeta transformed into Blue earlier than the beam clash. In that case then there's not even a difference, so they're flat out comparable in Blue. Goku's stamina was already recovered (somehow) at this point.
 
Tyranno223 said:
Wait, you were comparing their performance against Anilaza? I was giving the benefit of the doubt and assuming Vegeta transformed into Blue earlier than the beam clash. In that case then there's not even a difference, so they're flat out comparable in Blue. Goku's stamina was already recovered (somehow) at this point.
Click to expand...
Yeah and everyone somehow caught up to 2 UI amps in a matter of minutes lol.
 
Omegas03 said:
Aint questioning anything bc it looks pretty much straightforward but damn base saiyans and piccolo being on broly arc ssb level is just💀💀💀💀
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Manga-wise it's sort of reasonable for Piccolo. Ultimate Gohan was CSSB-level or higher in USS and Piccolo trained 3 months with Gohan and was shown to be relative to him and OG-73 who should both be Blue-level. Goku and Vegeta growing that much is nutty but they have been training insanely hard and Ultra Ego presumably gives Vegeta permanent power increases.

The one that really annoys me is Base/SS1 Gohan somehow scaling to SSB-level Gammas. And then Failed Gotenks scales far above that since his body could crack Cell Max when Ultimate Piccolo couldn't.
 
Sir_Marvulous said:
Failed Gotenks harming Cell Max is considered an outlier
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Yeah except for the part where they do absolutely nothing in the entire movie to contradict the feat, hell them fighting in base form and keeping up with SS1 Gohan and Ultimate Piccolo would actually support it. And even if we argued it using the SH prequel (which still wouldn't make it an outlier lol try scaling how strong that dinosaur should be) the Cell Max fight is nearly a year later.

You can't just say 'Oh it's an outlier' and neatly hide it under the rug. You gotta prove it's actually outside the norm for the characters. We have no basis for Teen Goten and Trunks or Teen Gotenks besides them fighting Cell Max in base form and their failed fusion being superior to Ultimate Piccolo.
 
CryoTheMayo said:
Yeah except for the part where they do absolutely nothing in the entire movie to contradict the feat, hell them fighting in base form and keeping up with SS1 Gohan and Ultimate Piccolo would actually support it. And even if we argued it using the SH prequel (which still wouldn't make it an outlier lol try scaling how strong that dinosaur should be) the Cell Max fight is nearly a year later.

You can't just say 'Oh it's an outlier' and neatly hide it under the rug. You gotta prove it's actually outside the norm for the characters. We have no basis for Teen Goten and Trunks or Teen Gotenks besides them fighting Cell Max in base form and their failed fusion being superior to Ultimate Piccolo.
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Well then, have fun trying to get Goten and Trunks to 2-C (I implore you to make this happen)
 
Sir_Marvulous said:
Well then, have fun trying to get Goten and Trunks to 2-C (I implore you to make this happen)
Click to expand...
I honestly don't care about the anime canon because it's a massive mess so I'm waiting to see how they scale in the manga. Right now all they have are anime profiles so someone else can feel free to do a revision for that. Would be nice if they had manga profiles though, they have some different scaling, feats and techniques that the anime versions don't have.
 
CryoTheMayo said:
Manga-wise it's sort of reasonable for Piccolo. Ultimate Gohan was CSSB-level or higher in USS and Piccolo trained 3 months with Gohan and was shown to be relative to him and OG-73 who should both be Blue-level. Goku and Vegeta growing that much is nutty but they have been training insanely hard and Ultra Ego presumably gives Vegeta permanent power increases.

The one that really annoys me is Base/SS1 Gohan somehow scaling to SSB-level Gammas. And then Failed Gotenks scales far above that since his body could crack Cell Max when Ultimate Piccolo couldn't.
Click to expand...
Goku ssjb saga moro humiliated saganbo who alone was soloing all the Z warriors on earth. Already in the power tournament something happened that I can't even explain, gohan draws with kefla. Since kale alone was already trampling on golden freeza. Gohan has some scary power ups.
 
Gohanblanco217 said:
There is still no proof that he was using SSJB level of power against SSJ gohan like at all
Click to expand...
Gamma 2 far below his full power was already called SSB level by Piccolo

Piccolo had confidence that Gohan could fight against Gamma 1 while knowing he's SSB level at the very least

Base Gohan was already contending him before he started using more of his power, prompting him to transform into a Super Saiyan

We're already given a floor for the Gammas by Piccolo, whom fought Gamma 2 and has sensed the power level of those he was comparing them to. You have to prove that they weren't using that level of power when its outright stated that's their weakest
 
Quasar002 said:
Goku ssjb saga moro humiliated saganbo who alone was soloing all the Z warriors on earth. Already in the power tournament something happened that I can't even explain, gohan draws with kefla. Since kale alone was already trampling on golden freeza. Gohan has some scary power ups.
Click to expand...
Freeza stated he was holding back and I believe Vegeta and Goku also had similar statements.

As for fusion, it isn't anywhere as big of a boost as you might think. I'll break it down for you:
  • SS Kale is SSB-level while SS2 Caulifla is just SS-level
  • SSR Black is SSB-level while Zamasu scales to SS-level in the manga
  • Merged Zamasu is equal to CSSB Goku and two copies of himself are vaporised by SSB Vegeta's Gamma Burst Flash.
  • Earlier in the manga it's stated SSB becomes 1/10th of its power after being used beforehand, meaning CSSB Goku is only 10x stronger than SSB Goku
  • So a fusion of an SSB-level fighter and a SS-level fighter is around a 10x boost at most
  • So Kefla is at most 10x stronger than Kale
From there we can't really scale how much Goku, Vegeta and Freeza were holding back relative to Kale but it's worth noting that both Freeza and Vegeta think they could deal with her if they went full power.

Would that still make Gohan and Kefla significantly stronger? Probably but it would be a <10x gap in power.
 
Omegas03 said:
Mfw base saiyans > ft arc Vegito blue
Click to expand...
Well currently the Saiyan Duo in base don't scale to 6 universes but I personally think they should. Maybe someone can try making a case for that. I mean, if Base Gohan after training is Broly Movie SSB level, I don't see why the Saiyan Duo shouldn't be the same. Its been three years, after all
 
Umm now that I think about it shouldn't ultimate Gohan after eating the senzu bean be more powerful than Orange Piccolo? Since orange Piccolo believed that a full powered ultimate Gohan will stand more chance against Cell max than him
 
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