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Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 100

Supposedly a rough translation of the Jiren statement:

“If you hadn't noticed, during that tournament, Jiren wasn't all that much stronger than us in the traditional sense. He mastered the use of his energy, he was able to fight without wasting any movement. Starting an attack from zero not only makes it harder for your opponent to read, but the explosiveness increases the power of your strike exponentially. Unlike us, this comes to Jiren naturally, so I'll start by meditating and figuring it out in my head.”
 
Maverick_Zero_X said:
Supposedly a rough translation of the Jiren statement:

“If you hadn't noticed, during that tournament, Jiren wasn't all that much stronger than us in the traditional sense. He mastered the use of his energy, he was able to fight without wasting any movement. Starting an attack from zero not only makes it harder for your opponent to read, but the explosiveness increases the power of your strike exponentially. Unlike us, this comes to Jiren naturally, so I'll start by meditating and figuring it out in my head.”
Click to expand...
The good thing is that at least this won't change the ratings significantly to the point of reaching downgrades tho.
 
Maverick_Zero_X said:
Supposedly a rough translation of the Jiren statement:

“If you hadn't noticed, during that tournament, Jiren wasn't all that much stronger than us in the traditional sense. He mastered the use of his energy, he was able to fight without wasting any movement. Starting an attack from zero not only makes it harder for your opponent to read, but the explosiveness increases the power of your strike exponentially. Unlike us, this comes to Jiren naturally, so I'll start by meditating and figuring it out in my head.”
Click to expand...
That sounds kinda like what Full Power Super Saiyan was about
 
Eseseso said:
I wonder how strong Final Gohan is, relative to other people who are >= SSJ Blue?
Click to expand...
Basically the spoilers says that Gohan wonders if Goku and Vegeta could have defeated Cell Max, which means he isn't completely certain they could have. The last time we know for certain that Gohan is aware of their power and witnessed it first hand is back on the ToP with MUI Goku vs FP Jiren. So the fact that Gohan witnessed thoroughly ToP MUI Goku's power yet still isn't completely certain that Goku and Vegeta could have beaten Cell Max implies that Cell Max is possibly relative to ToP MUI Goku. The only other two stuff that vaguely supports this is a promotional material saying Gohan's the strongest, and an interview where Toriyama says Gohan's the strongest. Both of them are super vague though.

So basically if this is accepted: Final Gohan >>> Cell Max ~ ToP MUI Goku = Low 2-C

The movie scaling chain is basically: Final Gohan (Wrecked Cell Max and shot right through Cell Max's full power attack and through his head with a special beam cannon)> Gamma 2 Overload(beyond Max Power/suicide attack. Was able to severely injure Cell Max and overpowered his guard.) > Cell Max > Orange Piccolo (weaker, but still relative to Cell Max)

Orange Piccolo (Can knock out a Gamma for a moment with one hit and completely tank hits from them) > Ultimate Gohan (stronger than a Gamma, but not to the point of one shotting them) >> Gamma 1 (nothing we know of implies that they aren't equal) = Gamma 2 (Matched and eventually overpowered Ultimate/Potential Unleashed Piccolo) ~> Ultimate/Potential Unleashed Piccolo (went toe to toe with Gamma 2 and performed mutch better than Super Saiyan Gohan did against Gamma 1 but ultimately lost) > Super Saiyan Gohan (much stronger than Base Gohan, but far weaker than Gamma 1) > Base Gohan (blocked a blow from base Piccolo and took a hit to the gut from him. Performed better against Gamma 1 than Base Piccolo did against Gamma 2) ~> Base Piccolo = 3-A.

Fat Gotenks (was able to crack Cell Max's head dome when he was kicked into it, where as Ultimate/Potential Unleashed Piccolo couldn't do anything to it even when he shot at it point blank) ~> Ultimate/Potential Unleashed Piccolo.

Oh yeah there's that statement that says that Gamma 1 and 2 are the mightiest Androids, which would put them above A17. So more support for 3-A, and if their above his barriers, then Low 2-C.
 
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  • Gamma 2 tried dive-kicking Cell Max, and Cell Max effortlessly blocked the strike before knocking him away.
  • Super Saiyan Gohan managed to cancel out Cell Max's nearly fully charged mouth beam by shooting it in the face, staggering it.
  • Ultimate Piccolo took Cell Max off-guard and dropped-kicked it in its neck, staggering it and causing it visible pain.
  • Goten and Trunks managed to push Cell Max through the air and into the ground with their combined attacks, but Cell was not harmed.
  • Gamma 1 and Gamma 2 both shot at Cell Max with their plasma pistols, but it was only momentarily staggered and unharmed.
  • Super Saiyan Gohan, Ultimate Piccolo, Goten, and Trunks all blasted Cell Max, and the blasts brushed off it like a water hose hitting a tree.
  • Cell Max managed to knock Super Saiyan Gohan to the ground with a single strike.
  • Gamma 2 charged up a massive shot, larger than himself, and tried catching Call Max off-guard, but it simply ran through the blast.
  • Goten, Trunks, and Super Saiyan Gohan all attacked Cell Max and did minimal damage, only staggering it.
  • Ultimate Piccolo shot Cell Max in its weak point, causing it break pain and nearly shattering it only. It recovered shortly after.
  • After being ping-ponged by Cell Max, 18, and the Gammas, Fat Gotenks managed to crack Cell Max's shiny dome, its weak point.
  • Super Saiyan Gohan, Ultimate Piccolo, Gamma 1, and 18's combined forces did little to Cell Max.
  • Krillin needed to protect 18, which did so by launching a Destructo Disk at Cell Max's face, which did zero meaningful damage.
  • Gamma 2 shattering his limits and crashing down from the stratosphere managed obliterate Cell Max's arm and leave it exhausted.
  • Super Saiyan Gohan shot at Cell Max multiple times and do little meaningful damage.
  • Krillin and Gotenks both kicked Cell Max and only briefly staggered it.
  • Orange Piccolo held Cell Max's foot up for a prolonged period of time and, upon becoming Giant, managed to deal blows.
  • Ultimate Gohan managed to knock Cell Max into the air with a single strike and then push it further into a chasm with his blasts.
  • After getting furious, Cell Max came back and ragdolled everybody, including Giant Orange Piccolo.

Comparing the performance of Krillin and Goten and Trunks and 18, even Gotenks, to the performance of the Super Saiyan Gohan and Ultimate Piccolo and the Gammas means little to nothing in terms of scaling, considering the only ones to do any meaningful damage where those who caught Cell Max off-guard and attacked its weak point and the god-tiers (i.e., Giant Orange Piccolo, Ultimate Gohan, and Gamma 2 with his limits shattered). That would be like saying "These ants all managed to do zero damage to this beetle, so the ants should all scale to each other". X and Y are not comparable because X and Y did equal amounts of nothing to Z.

Besides, I had to fight to get Ribrianne, who has more solid grounds to scale from than the aforementioned supporting cast, to "possibly 3-A". I will not allow Krillin and 18, the guys who do not train, to suddenly jump up like this.
 
Ok.

I don't really care much if Goten, Trunks, A18, and Krillin get 3-A or not, either all of them get it, or they don't.
 
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Pan, a quarter-Saiyan, ran towards Gohan and hugged him fast enough to create a vapor cone, an indication of transonic speeds. Her effortlessly evading bullets also supports this.

Glad to see the next generation is balling.

Now, let's see Bra's card.
 
I'm still of the opinion that Fat Gotenks could possibly be upgraded to 3-A. IIRC, Potential Unlocked Piccolo couldn't do much damage to Cell Max's head when he tried shooting a beam at it, which made Cell Max pissed tf off, but when Fat Gotenks hit it, he caused a large crack in it to form, which caused Cell Max some pain. Hell, you could even give him "possibly 3-A" too, but he still has that feat.
 
Apparently Piccolo said in the movie that both Gamma'S full power are potentially on Vegeta and Goku's level ( according to Dragonball wikia)

And concerning the Jiren statement: That statement is contradicted by Jiren overpowering them in beam struggles and taking their attacks like nothing. The explaination doesn't explain anything. Toriyama's word isn't WoG for the Anime either. (Toei owns the Anime while Toriyama shares ownership for the manga with Shueisha. ) Keep in mind that Broly and Super hero are made so that they fit both Manga and Anime ( which is why we don't see completed SSJB or Kaioken x20) and in the manga they are all power scaling wise much closer. If anything these statements apply more to the Manga.
 
Okay now it's a total scaling mess:

Goku apparently says that he and Vegeta need to train in order to surpass Jiren, GoD and Broly implying that Granolah Arc Goku hasn't surpassed Broly even with Mui.


WTF is wrong with those people at Toei and Toriyama ?? XDD
 
Simple.
  1. Broly has been training alongside Goku and Vegeta for the past three years. His strength has been increasing as steadily as theirs have, possibly even more quickly.
  2. Super Hero takes place in the anime continuity, just as the movie preceding did, meaning Granolah doesn't exist.
 
Wait, if now Gohan Blanco and Piccolo Naranja are somehow equal to MUI Goku, would that mean that, if Anime adapts the scene where Gohan and Piccolo together both at full power couldn't restrict a Moro powered Saganbo, we'll get 2-C MUI Goku, Merus, Moro, etc.?
 
Completely disregarding the fact that this movie takes three years after the events of the battle with Broly — for reference, the Granolah the Survivor Saga takes place a few months afterward — the manga continuity does not house the Super Hero movie.
 
Maverick_Zero_X said:
“If you hadn't noticed, during that tournament, Jiren wasn't all that much stronger than us in the traditional sense. He mastered the use of his energy, he was able to fight without wasting any movement. Starting an attack from zero not only makes it harder for your opponent to read, but the explosiveness increases the power of your strike exponentially. Unlike us, this comes to Jiren naturally, so I'll start by meditating and figuring it out in my head.”
Click to expand...
For the majority of the Tournament, this sentiment held true. Jiren meditated, steadied himself, and dominated his own Ki. All of his strikes were decisive, and every one of his strikes skyrocketed from an ordinary blow to an explosive energy punch, greatly amplifying their destructiveness, as Vegeta claims here. Of course, his take on the gap between the two of them can be disregarded with other tangible evidence, such as Jiren overpowering Goku, Vegeta, and Android 17 with his aura alone. But, ultimately, the validity of any of this all comes down to Whis' reaction. Summaries of the story mentioned that Whis cosigned his statement, but this mean a number of things; was Whis agreeing that Goku and Vegeta should try mastering their Ki further? Was Whis agreeing that the gap between Goku and Vegeta and Jiren was not that massive as shown? Was Whis proud of Vegeta taking the initiative? We would have to see the movie, and potentially a translation of Whis' dialogue if any, to understand the entire picture.

Also, Jiren only does the meditating thing in the anime, IIRC.
 
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