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Dragon Ball Heroes Infinite Speed Revision Part 2

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Kepekley23 said:
Your argument, no matter what path you take or retake, leads into:
1. The deletion of the Cinematic Time page, since it'd be near worthless

2. The downgrade of all characters to subsonic or supersonic, with some exceptions here and there.

And before yelling "Strawmaan!!", elaborate.
Click to expand...
It is an absolute, ridiculous strawman. And I think you need to calm down, maybe breathe, and look into the thread again.

1. This is laughable considering the core of my argument involves the existence of Cinematic Timing, something which I agree exists and should be used.

2. Also wrong considering I outright stated that there's a difference between movement not being slowed down accurately, and not being slowed down at all to an infinite degree.
 
Bluetrekking said:
Downgrading the speeds of characters because "muh fiction does not depicts them a certain way" is overly strict and mostly comes from people overthinking things, and this would eventually restrict Infinite speeds to characters that display extremely specific showings of velocity that aren't found in many fictional verses.
Click to expand...
I agree. However, and this is just my opinion here, even when taking that out of the equation, we are left with three statements that aren't backed up by anything else in the verse. I believe that is what Matt and Assalt has been trying to say, which is something I, personally, agree with.
 
This thread is wild.

I agree with Kep. He can handle himself; i'm Not just saying I agree because i'm a wanking sheep. I legit think that using "portrayals" as arguments is horrible. What Matt seems to want is pure feats, I guess.

Which means no Infinite Digimon, if they have mostly statements. Which I believe is enough— statements that aren't contradictory should at least get a POSSIBLY.
 
"2. Also wrong considering I outright stated that there's a difference between movement not being slowed down accurately, and not being slowed down at all to an infinite degree."

Or, How about, Animators DO NOT KNOW THE DIFFERENCE!? A Simple thing for you or me might not be simple for them. Not to insult their intelligence, but it's like saying "It's only basic Algebra!" to people in the 17th/18th century
 
@Dragonmasterxyz

I do not mind our current infinite speed standards. The question is if this case is qualified for such a rating according to them.

Anyway, what do the rest of you think about closing this thread until Dragonmasterxyz and most of the rest of you have had a good night's sleep to calm down and think about this?
 
"What Matt seems to want is pure feats, I guess."

Yes. Along with consistent, accurate statements.

"Which means no Infinite Digimon, if they have mostly statements."

Can we please drop the Digimon false-equivalency? That's the sixth time its being brought up.

@Akreious

I couldn't care less about what the animators know or don't know. I'm going by what's on screen.
 
I agree with Ant and Julian.

I am incredibly stressed because of it, and I know Ever and Assalt are too. Others likely are as well.

Give this a day to breathe.
 
Sure, there can be inaccuracies, but nothing so discrepant as there being movement when there should be none.

You're acting like two wrongs make a right. No, they don't.

> Except... When we get microsecond statements for an attack / dodge / movement. Which is the reason behind half the MHS+ ratings.

No. Our current system for calculations already takes into account the scenes being slowed down for the viewer, which is why we divide the distance by the REAL speed of a projectile in order to find the timeframe for a dodge. 95% of all calculations do. Only 5% of the ratings use stated micrsecond timeframes.

> Legit why is this an argument?

Your argument relies on that assumption, so.

> I didn't. I am arguing their Cinematic Timing should portray something specific, though.

Which is wrong and uses a Tu quoque fallacy as an argument.

> In this very post and the later which you responded to.

Gonna need be more specific than that.
 
Kep has been consistently calm. Like, he's only sounding snarky because of almost 1,000 posts of someone else's snark, and honestly, it's unjustified to ask him to calm down when he's been on the receiving end of all this and been completely calm.
 
Okay. I will close this then. Try to give it at least a day to calm down. Most of the staff usually either like or at least get along with each other after all.
 
Challengeday


"I have watched and listened from the mountains. I have watched with disgust as your Dragon Ball verse upgrades have been overseen by threads full with' statements and scaling. This scoffs at 'tradition' of 'Vsbattle', where feats and consistency 'is always considered primary."

No, but serious I'm in disagreement on this issue. I'm with Matthew Schroeder. Overall this has been lasting far too long. I know everyone is a little hot-headed, but if a thread like this gets passed due to the fact that statements and scaling is once again overriding feats and consistency. This will bring more proof that there is a major bias in this community in favor for Dragon Ball franchise as a whole.

No other series on this site will dare get an upgrade if it was soley from the bases of statements and scaling, but here we are again with another Dragon Ball issues on our hands. So, Antvasima after this thread is locked and finished. You may need to look into this community and change things that heavily concerns bias threads getting passed due to favoritism especially when all other were directed due to having zero feats or consistency. Dragon Ball verse should not have special priority over all others.
 
Seeing as I only got so much time on Sunday mornings, I woke up early in order to get this done quickly.

So, to start this was the main proposal made by Assalt in that thread.

"A character should only receive infinite speed if it is mentioned or backed up by other feats or statements. For characters who were spawned in a timeless void but then show no sign of retaining such speeds, in either scaling or narrative, they should not have this speed rating."

Now, going through the thread we see Ever, Kep and Matt along with many other agree that this is too strict and would limit Infinite Speed to no one. This was also Kep opinion on the matter which many people were in agreement with.

"Or maybe we just consider Void feats valid, while noting that if it contradicts the rest of the verse's speed feats (tl;dr: it is an outlier) and is a PIS, it shouldn't be used. There."

^This seems to be a major point of contention here. I will stay out of that issue as it's too early in the morning for me to deal with that.

So skipping ahead past the walls of text full of back and forth arguments, this is a comment made by Assalt.

"Any infinite speed character that isn't consistent in showing said infinite speed."

To which I replied;

"Define consistent showing. Almost no series shows "consistent infinite speed"."

This was something many people earlier in the thread agreed upon as this was brought up by Ever and approved of by Matt, Kep and other users.

Assalt's comments here is mainly what people seem to accept as the standards.

"I'd like some citation of it being truly timeless and functioning as timeless. Sorry if this sounds demanding, but this is a significant rating that is literally an infinite amount above all other speed ratings, so I'd like there to be ample proof. Consistent showing: The infinite speed has multiple statements/feats and/or functions like infinite speed should, and doesn't contradict more substantial or more consistent showings."

As much as I am sick of them being brought up, Digimon I guess is by far the best example, because as Cal said, they likely have the most non-Tier 2 Infinite Speed characters. I should also note that in this thread, said Dark Area Digimon were going to be downgraded. However, after I posted these scans, everything was fine and as such this would likely prove to be sufficient for Infinite (and Immeasurable) Speed.


SAuquOQ

Born from the Dark Area, which exists in a spatial distortio, it is a wicked Ghost Digimon.

OKOxwfI

Time stops, complete darkness and Dark Energy surrounds all of you now! It looks like everyone was somehow transported to the Dark Area.
"

The intersection of its lightning-speed attacks blows the opponent right out of the flow of time!
~ Re-101​
Ripped directly from our blogs on this.

LNAjfNq

This is a world that can go beyond time by moving between layers!
~ [1]​
During Period X Yggdrasil created a Digital World divided into three terminals that would represent the past, present and future. According to the official Digimon Chronicle website to move between the terminals you need to move beyond the time itself.

RK Travel
The Royal Knights constantly travel through the three terminals because of the orders of Yggdrasil to exterminate the Digimon with the X-Antibody.


VhPf2WP

This illusory holy knight transcended space-time to save the world!
~ Bx-144​

OsQUlRe

Chapter Twenty: The heroes advance through space-time, putting their lives and the future on the line!
~ Bx-133​
To top it all off. https://imgur.com/a/iJSLI"

Before I continue, I will just say that seeing as this was accepted and is the main topic brought up, we should use these scans as an example to what we want.

Anyway, towards the end of the thread, this was what everyone agreed upon.

"Originating from the void can be used to support the rating. However, this does not automatically makes the character infinite in speed. In addition, lacking such an origin is not a justification to disqualify a character from the rating. Official statements can also be applied as long the description is clear or clarified."

And as a bonus, Ultima's post that people agreed with (the part that seems to be important here).

"I honestly think that downgrading the speeds of these kind of characters because "muh fiction does not depicts them a certain way" is overly strict and is mostly a product of people overthinking things, and this would eventually restrict Infinite and Immeasurable speeds to characters such as cosmic entities that display extremely specific showings of velocity that aren't found in many fictional verses aside from some stories that focus of Hard Sci-Fi or Cosmic Horror. And thinking that an entity unbound by time would suddently become restrained by it when entering a continuum is ridiculous, when they can inhabit a realm where it is nonexistent, while beings from a continuum would most likely stand still and remain completely paralyzed due to lack of causality (Well... Unless the power of PIS interferes, but i think i already exposed my point here)"

Either way, after seeing all this, I hope it is clear to what we want. I posted the exact details of the verse that is used as a major comparison (Digimon) and what was used to justify Infinite Speed Dark Area Digimon. Hopefully now things can go smoothly and swiftly.
 
I have no problem with Dragonball's speed. My issue has always been with the standards of infinite speed and how it relates to a void. I guess it's because I come from a different place. I talked for hours with people from all over offsite while trying to calm down (which helped a bit). People here have always say things like "everyone is infinite in speed via a void feat" or "that's how we treat infinite speed". Unfortunately it doesn't work like that. I was in no way trying to make infinite speed stricter.

If you remember, there was a thread in the past. Myself, Matthew, DontTalk, TheLivingTribunal1, Antvasima, and Ven had all discussed the blurred line between infinite and immeasurable speed. It was eventually argued by Ven that we have made Infinite speed "Immeasurable for Lower-Dimensional characters". This however should not be the case. If a 1-C being comes from a timeless realm it's automatically treated as being transcendent beyond all time and equally as such would warrant immeasurable speed. But even a 1-C can have infinite or MFTL speed.

The definition and explanations for these speeds state the our standards for infinite and immeasurable speeds are:

Infinite: Everywhere instantly

Immeasurable: Everywhere and everywhen.

That is what we've decided. Not to appeal to authority but many of you staff didn't even participate in that thread. In my personal expert opinion every other infinite speed revision after that one in early-mid 2017 should NOT have even happened. Why? Because all it did was retread the same problem of infinite speed and come to a different conclusion because some of the people who participated in the last discussion are either on long hiatuses or are no longer with us. I.e. TLT1 and Ven.

A true timeless realm lacks the concept of time and thus should not be treated as zero time. or 0:00:000. Timelessness in the abstract sense always means transcendence over time. A timeless realm doesn't mean everything there is at a standstill or 0:00:000 a.k.a zero time while moving. Instead, it means something we cannot truly percieve because we humans percieve and have a sense of time. Not all timeless voids are even transcendent. Some may be outside the linear flow of time. Non-linear time is just as equally a thing as non-Euclidean space.

Again, if infinite speed is go anywhere instantly, then how is moving in a realm with an undefined size infinite just because of the claims of it being timeless?

I know a character that can move as fast as he wants and move anywhere instantly regardless of distance just by moving. He always reaches his destination at 0:00:000 regardless of the distance. He isnt using teleportation. That's infinite speed. Why? He's consistently moving anywhere instantly without teleportation. The Longinus lance bypassing the concept of distance is infinite speed. It's all about distance. Time is being divided, but it must be divided by distance traveled but even still if a void is timeless then it is not saying time is zero, its saying time is nonexistent there.

Even if yes, timelessness = zero time, it does not prove that they can move anywhere instantly, which is what our standards for infinite speed are. Maybe the fault is that "moving in still time" was never removed from the definition when it was supposed to be last I recall. Or maybe there were more revisions to defend keeping it even though it borderlines the territory of immeasurable speed. This is why TLT1 and DontTalk were smart enough to suggest we instead make immeasurable speed even stricter via limiting it to multiple temporalities, because the line between infinite and immeasurable is supposed to be great but instead is blurred and undefined in its own right and has become a matter of tier or dimensional standing.

This is NOT downplaying. If anything this would upgrade some infinite speeds to low level immeasurables. But if you lot are hellbent on keeping infinite speed the way it is, fine. Not wasting anymore energy on this. Talked with some guys on Discord and they all agreed it's not gopd for my health or anyone else's. It's just vs debating. Not politics. At the end it comes from us having two different interperetations, I have no qualms with that, just do not play hypocrite and call me objectively wrong agai, because that is (forgive my French) bullshit. I hope you consider that at least, I'm talking to people, I'm not claiming I'm right or you're wrong, NEVER did.
 
Also to clear up confusion on the second scan, the quote below it is actually the third scan. The second scan is from Re Digitize when in the Dark Area, the timer that usually shows up, is no longer functioning and has disappeared, showing that there is no longer any time.

Here is what it looks like outside the Dark Area.

Digi-Re Clock
 
I personally think that Sera makes sense, but I am too busy and distracted to get into a long argument.
 
@Peach

And granting everyone infinite speed just because they originate/operate freely in a timeless void is the same as giving every fifth-dimensional being and above immeasurable speed because time is often portrayed as the fourth dimension. It's just not right because fiction does not treat all timeless places the same. The realm described in DB is not a realm constantly at 0:00:000 because Demon Gods have ages. It's a realm beyond conventional time.
 
> is the same as giving every fifth-dimensional being and above immeasurable speed because time is often portrayed as the fourth dimension

We already do that widely here.

> The realm described in DB is not a realm constantly at 0:00:000 because Demon Gods have ages. It's a realm beyond conventional time.

They have ages from the point of view of someone like Chronoa.
 
And that's wrong as already didiscussed. What the hell happened to that discussion? We dropped needing multiple temporal dimensions but we all agreed that 5-D and above does NOT automatically grant immeasurable speed. Who's the wise guy that keeps meddling with things? That was already exposed as being wrong....

And from the point of view of Chronoa? Does she not scale?
 
If that's been discussed, it doesn't seem like it was ever applied. Plenty of characters who only have their speeds because of dimensionality still retain it, IIRRC.

We're not sure if she scales or not, but people like Trunks are the ones who state Demigra's age.
 
Then that's wrong. She has a sense of time. The Demon Gods have listed ages whereas in every other instance if it was a true timeless realm they would have their ages listed as timeless or if it's at 0:00:000 it would warrant the age being infinite. You see why feats are more important than statements now, yes?
 
False, and yet again trying to apply to fiction a standard it doesn't have.

Characters from To Aru like the Egyptian Gods are Immeasurable and they all exist inside their own realms, where the very concepts of Time and Distance don't exist and are irrelevant, and are still only 4,000 years old
 
Seems like my post was a waste of time if we are just going to talk of revising our standard regardless without even addressing the post. Nice to know.
 
I thought we already agreed that bare minimum, only the Demon Gods become infinite in speed. What the hell is happening?

Why are we going in circles?
 
I asked you stop doing that. Go back to when I said that timeless =/= zero time because all fictions do not treat timelessness the same. Unlike you guys who went to sleep, I've been up this entire time, talking about this same shit with people from various places because varying opinions and interpretations matter. I'm not applying standards here, I'm making one observation of many I have.

>Applying standards to fiction it doesn't have.

But we have to do that in most cases. Otherwise everyone that transcends space and time would be 1-A. Applying standards is to prevent excessive wank and downplay and even then I'm not even doing that as I just said.
 
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