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Dragon Ball Heroes: Cosmological Review

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It being a game doesn't justify things being this much incoherent.

Writers definitely know about the size of celestial/cosmic bodies, yet we get this cutscenes.

Not to mention that not even those on the background are portrayed as giants, they're still on comparable size as Demigra.
 
Doesn't matter, timelines are not supposed to fall like that and to be dodged like they're random objects.

If those were attacks used from a character who uses timelines as bullets/technique then okay, that could be ok. But here those crystals weren't manipulated from anything.
 
People aren't supposed to exceed the SoL (shouldn't even reach it btw, they have mass) either, yet they do.

These people shouldn't be able to wield that kind of power in their bodies, let alone High 3-A and above, yet they do.

That isn't an argument whatsoever.
 
Ottavio_Merluzzo said:
People aren't supposed to exceed the SoL (shouldn't even reach it btw, they have mass) either, yet they do.
Click to expand...
False equivalence to the maximum, we're not talking about speed omfg.

We're talking about size, something that was accurately portrayed before (and later) in the verse.

You're not supposed to literally dodge a timeline falling on you like is a regular object, this isn't just breaking the laws of physics but is literally saying that timelines can perfectly fall on people and be dodged as if they're common rocks. And you know that ain't really right.
 
StrymULTRA said:
You're not supposed to literally dodge a timeline falling on you like is a regular object
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You just can't apply that logic to a cartoon lol.

In fiction it happens more often than not.

In Instant Death there is a being called "Celestial fundation eater" a giant fish whose size dwarfs entire Timelines alone.

Or also beings holding an entire Space-time continoum in the palm of their hand
 
God900 said:
In Instant Death there is a being called "Celestial fundation eater" a giant fish whose size dwarfd entire Timelines alone.
Click to expand...
The fish uses Avatars to interact with what's inside the worlds and it being higher dimensional is not contradicted from anything, so that's not an argument.
God900 said:
Or also beings holding an entire Space-time continoum in the palm of their hand
Click to expand...
That is heavily context dependent. In the cases I know about this (like Doremy from Touhou) she straight up manipulates those universes.

But here we talk about timelines being forcefully portrayed as comparable in size to 3D humans with no logical explanation.
 
StrymULTRA said:
The fish uses Avatars to interact with what's inside the worlds and it being higher dimensional is not contradicted from anything, so that's not an argument.
Click to expand...
What do Avatars have to do with the fact that the true form of the fish transcends Timelines's size itself?

StrymULTRA said:
That is heavily context dependent. In the cases I know about this (like Doremy from Touhou) she straight up manipulates those universes.

But here we talk about timelines being forcefully portrayed as comparable in size to 3D humans with no logical explanation
Click to expand...
Again, those are just Game mechanics, you know they don't always have to make sense, right?
You know a player can just grab Krilin and beat up Whis in the Game.....

Or for example, when you travel to Planet Namek from Conton city, to do Nail's quests.

You clearly see the planet portrayed as a floating Island, does that mean Planet Namek is only 6-C?
 
God900 said:
What do Avatars have to do with the fact that the true form of the fish transcends Timelines's size itself?
Click to expand...
It just supports the fish being bigger, duh.
God900 said:
Again, those are just Game mechanics, you know they don't always have to make sense, right?
You know a player can just grab Krilin and beat up Whis in the Game.....

Or for example, when you travel to Planet Namek from Conton city, to do Nail's quests.

You clearly see the planet portrayed as a floating Island, does that mean Planet Namek is only 6-C?
Click to expand...
Are you seriously applying game mechanics to a cutscene? Game Mechanics is shit like HPs, taking turns or everyone having finite statistics. But this is a cutscene, game mechanics don't apply there.
 
God900 said:
It's more like the fish being Higher dimensional, since the "Sea" where he resides is. Rather than needing 3-D sockpuppets to interact with lower worlds.

Also the fact that he can interact with those Universes just fine, the dude literally eats Universes as breakfast
Click to expand...
That doesn't really address what I said. Stop understanding what you want to understand, I'm perfectly aware why the fish is Higher D, the fact it uses 3D avatars to interact with said worlds only supports that notion.

Besides it's completely irrelevant with the topic at hand anyway.
 
StrymULTRA said:
the fact it uses 3D avatars to interact with said worlds only supports that notion.
Click to expand...
He literally can eat those lower worlds lol. So interacts with Low D just fine.

Anyways, yep. Dropping this, just addresing the point that "is impossible to dodge" timelines tho.

Also, the fact there are beings in fiction Who can throw entire multiverses at will 💀
 
God900 said:
He literally can eat those lower worlds lol.

Anyways, yep. Just addresing the point that "is impossible to dodge" timelines tho.
Click to expand...
That is because the fish is bigger than those timelines. FW has 0 proofs of that. You're climbing on mirrors now lol.
God900 said:
Also, the fact there are beings in fiction Who can throw entire multiverses at will 💀
Click to expand...
Again, context dependent. Most of the time these characters can manipulate said structures, so that's a reasoning, but in this case it lacks a reasoning.
 
StrymULTRA said:
That is because the fish is bigger than those timelines. FW has 0 proofs of that. You're climbing on mirrors now lol.

Again, context dependent. Most of the time these characters can manipulate said structures, so that's a reasoning, but in this case it lacks a reasoning.
Click to expand...
Yeah, just wanted to address the part about "being imposible to dodge timelines", becouse it can certainly happen in fiction

Anyways, I remain neutral for now, will wait for more arguments.
 
I don’t like double standards so if being a timeline (you can see a fight happening inside the crystal) or universe/space time is invalidated because when people are in the Crack of Time look small even though when Fu held the universe in the CoT you could see Goku in it then you might as well downgrade Fu’s LS too and any verse that does anything similar but whatever this logic apparently makes sense
 
godofice said:
even though when Fu held the universe in the CoT you could see Goku in it then you might as well downgrade Fu’s LS too and any verse that does anything similar but whatever this logic apparently makes sense
Click to expand...
This is so random lmao.

Seeds are very different from the crystals, and the tree explicitly is not universe sized, but galaxy sized. So at best the Seeds work like Alien X, who is technically a living universe with lots of galaxies inside, but is not that big in the actual universe.

If anything the Universe tree size should be downgraded to Type 7 from Type 9.
 
StrymULTRA said:
This is so random lmao.

Seeds are very different from the crystals, and the tree explicitly is not universe sized, but galaxy sized. So at best the Seeds work like Alien X, who is technically a living universe with lots of galaxies inside, but is not that big in the actual universe.

If anything the Universe tree size should be downgraded to Type 7 from Type 9.
Click to expand...
Didn’t even realize but the op addressed this point there’s the Universe Tree and the Copy Universe I’ll quote the op word for word “Perhaps some argue that this is actually the seed of the universe, not the universe itself. But this is actually wrong, as this was actually the universe after the universe tree hatched. When he hatched from the tree, a light sucked the warriors out of the time rift and sent them into this universe.
In addition to the tree seed being different visually when we see it in the universal conflict saga. ” but yeah Fu never held the Universe Tree in his hand
 
The Universe 3 is stated in the manga that it'll reach the size of a galaxy, as said in manga and arcade. Which honestly just contradicts those small spheres being literal universes, but rather "portals" for it.

But is not done yet, as people using portals to it do not increase their size as well. Why would Towa use the CoT to trap people there if they become literally bigger than said timelines? Again, contraddictions.

If anything those seeds should be treated as the crystals, which are only things which reflect the timelines, and are not literally those. It's like saying that a TV is 4-A because it displays the sky, and it ain't it chief.
Click to expand...
The hole anology here seems bad because The stuff that is acquired to make the tree grow is not based on the size, it's solely vitality we literally see vegeta make a blast just as big as the universe tree yet when it absorbs the energy it does not grow further Even here we see the universe tree is not as big as a galaxy which utterly decimates the idea that the energy inputted = size output as well.
 
CraigTucker said:
The hole anology here seems bad because The stuff that is acquired to make the tree grow is not based on the size, it's solely vitality we literally see vegeta make a blast just as big as the universe tree yet when it absorbs the energy it does not grow further Even here we see the universe tree is not as big as a galaxy which utterly decimates the idea that the energy inputted = size output as well.
Click to expand...

why same thumbnail
 
I'd so I read through the basis of this thread and I see it's at kinda an impasse

So this is my view as a person who does not care whether the verse gets Upgraded or Downgraded

From what I can see the Crack of Time portrays entire 4D Infinite Universes as finite in size

The main argument against this is that since they're small in comparison to other regular sized people that inhabit that space

Them suddenly growing bigger than an infinite sized universe obviously makes no sense (but could be the case idn)

HOWEVER

That really doesn't even matter if the Infinite Universe in question is of a certain size, fiction does this all the time

What matters in my opinion is if these Universes in question still take the same amount of energy to destroy in the crack of time and are equivalent to there normal universe selves

What I mean by this is if a normal human was somehow transferred to the crack of time would they be able to say destroy a crystal and the universe itself?

Or is this only treated as something that can be done by characters hat have already been established as Universal in tier?

If the later is the case and they still retain there properties of requiring infinite energy to create or destroy then this would be a case of a 4 dimensional multiverse being dwarfed infinitely by a larger space

Which is literally the definition of Low 1-C
"Characters or objects that can affect, create and/or destroy the entirety of spaces whose size corresponds to one to two higher levels of infinity greater than a standard universal model (Low 2-C structures, in plain English.)"

This is assuming that there are characters the have destroyed the Crack of Time as well and not just the universes in it

If this is the case then put me down for Agree
 
Shmeatywerbenmanjenson said:
I'd so I read through the basis of this thread and I see it's at kinda an impasse

So this is my view as a person who does not care whether the verse gets Upgraded or Downgraded

From what I can see the Crack of Time portrays entire 4D Infinite Universes as finite in size

The main argument against this is that since they're small in comparison to other regular sized people that inhabit that space

Them suddenly growing bigger than an infinite sized universe obviously makes no sense (but could be the case idn)

HOWEVER

That really doesn't even matter if the Infinite Universe in question is of a certain size, fiction does this all the time

What matters in my opinion is if these Universes in question still take the same amount of energy to destroy in the crack of time and are equivalent to there normal universe selves

What I mean by this is if a normal human was somehow transferred to the crack of time would they be able to say destroy a crystal and the universe itself?

Or is this only treated as something that can be done by characters hat have already been established as Universal in tier?

If the later is the case and they still retain there properties of requiring infinite energy to create or destroy then this would be a case of a 4 dimensional multiverse being dwarfed infinitely by a larger space

Which is literally the definition of Low 1-C
"Characters or objects that can affect, create and/or destroy the entirety of spaces whose size corresponds to one to two higher levels of infinity greater than a standard universal model (Low 2-C structures, in plain English.)"

This is assuming that there are characters the have destroyed the Crack of Time as well and not just the universes in it

If this is the case then put me down for Agree
Click to expand...
No people are small when they’re in the actual timelines or universes and they’re only comparable to size to the universe/timeline when they‘re not in the actual universe or timeline which now makes me wonder doesn’t that just mean when someone is in the perspective of the crack of time they become comparable to universes/timelines in size since even someone like Goku was literally in one of the universes Fu

To put this in simple terms ”humans” are small when they‘re actually inside the universe or timeline and should be that small comparable to the space time which makes sense ofc but they’re only comparable when they’re outside of said space time and seems like its similar to a boomtube affect since Fu literally holds a universe with Goku inside of it and we’ve been shown fights of events occurring inside a crystal timeline
 
Firestorm808 said:
Can someone reiterate the proposal of qualitative superiority?
Click to expand...
godofice said:
Existing/Being Superior/Beyond Space-Time Super Space-Time 超時空 Super Dimensional you can say these statements don’t mean anything but they do with supporting evidence they’re shown to trivialize 4-dimensional space time there being an infinite amount of them and interconnecting them
Click to expand...
vsbattles.fandom.com

XV2

vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

Short Summary: CoT is a Space stated to be a “Super Space-Time” and “Beyond Space-Time” which mean nothing by itself but this makes sense when you realize its a space that dwarfs and is outside of infinite histories but interconnecting and housing these timelines and universes


Counterargument for this so far: Crystals seem too small and why are humans comparable to a timeline in size?

The counter arguments for the counter arguments is that it’s a perspective thing
godofice said:
No people are small when they’re in the actual timelines or universes and they’re only comparable to size to the universe/timeline when they‘re not in the actual universe or timeline which now makes me wonder doesn’t that just mean when someone is in the perspective of the crack of time they become comparable to universes/timelines in size since even someone like Goku was literally in one of the universes Fu

To put this in simple terms ”humans” are small when they‘re actually inside the universe or timeline and should be that small comparable to the space time which makes sense ofc but they’re only comparable when they’re outside of said space time and seems like its similar to a boomtube affect since Fu literally holds a universe with Goku inside of it and we’ve been shown fights of events occurring inside a crystal timeline
Click to expand...
My scans justifying this we see events happening inside the crystals and they’re called histories we also see Fu holding a universe which is stated to be a space-time many times and we actually see things within this universe and Goku is inside a universe Fu is holding further justifying that this is a perspective thing like how The Writer views the Monitor Overvoid as a sheet of paper which doenst mean that monitor a HDB is only as big as a sheet of paper
 
I agree, maybe the people who enter that higher dimensional space gain a higher dimensional existence of some sort in conjunction with the space they are in, which explains why they are comparable in size with the entire timeline.
 
Can someone clarify if the time crystal shards are entire universes/timelines?

In order to enter them, there is some form of shrinking from the Crack of Time to the Time Shard?
 
Alright, I'm in break time, so here's the thing.

godofice said:
Didn’t even realize but the op addressed this point there’s the Universe Tree and the Copy Universe I’ll quote the op word for word “Perhaps some argue that this is actually the seed of the universe, not the universe itself. But this is actually wrong, as this was actually the universe after the universe tree hatched. When he hatched from the tree, a light sucked the warriors out of the time rift and sent them into this universe.
In addition to the tree seed being different visually when we see it in the universal conflict saga. ” but yeah Fu never held the Universe Tree in his hand
Click to expand...

Strawman af, I never said that is not an universe, just that it works like Alien X who is not universe sized on the outside but only inside. A bit like Mechikabura in his TPU as well.
godofice said:
like how The Writer views the Monitor Overvoid as a sheet of paper which doenst mean that monitor a HDB is only as big as a sheet of paper
Click to expand...
Another false equivalence. It's a feat for the Writer in this case.
TiltedFN said:
I agree, maybe the people who enter that higher dimensional space gain a higher dimensional existence of some sort in conjunction with the space they are in, which explains why they are comparable in size with the entire timeline.
Click to expand...
This ain't Gurren Lagann chief. You need explicit statements about this, not "maybe is like this".

CraigTucker said:
The hole anology here seems bad because The stuff that is acquired to make the tree grow is not based on the size
Click to expand...
Fuu literally says it.
CraigTucker said:
yet when it absorbs the energy it does not grow further Even here we see the universe tree is not as big as a galaxy which utterly decimates the idea that the energy inputted = size output as well.
Click to expand...
This thing you said just damages your point. Fuu said that the tree will eventually reach galaxy size, meaning that it is not of that size yet. Aka your argument is literally saying that the tree is still much smaller than a galaxy.
 
Fuu literally says it.
Click to expand...
Fuu said this but the context and narritive disapprove this, I don't see why would x character say something with the context dismissed it.




This thing you said just damages your point. Fuu said that the tree will eventually reach galaxy size, meaning that it is not of that size yet. Aka your argument is literally saying that the tree is still much smaller than a galaxy.
Click to expand...

That's completely assuming things and no fuu verbatemly said the tree was already complete, your going against your hole source and I already explain how the tree isn't really the size of a galaxy no refute here. The fact it’s supposed to be an object of absorption-> creation, the size has no intent on the use of said object, no one is arguing that it should be the size of a universe, no one is saying it should be 6-D physically, they are saying it has the power to create a new universe which in itself is already several galaxies and on multiple occasions was called infinite. You’re using an arbitrary format of words to try to say it’s only the size of a galaxy when the living world on its own was confirmed to be separated in 4, which innumerable galaxies and nebulae that exist in an endlessly expansive universe. Even if I agreed to saying it was an endlessly expanding 3-D space, it’s still bigger than a galaxy such as the milky way. Honestly i find you dishonest here and was referring to the tree without root, thus it doesn't damage any points of mine
 
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