• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Dragon Ball Heroes: Cosmological Review

Status
Not open for further replies.
segetero said:
If low 2-c is considered infinite 4-d space then there should be no difference between any Tier 2 ap or range wise as there is not an infinity larger than a countable infinity but smaller than an uncountable infinity
Click to expand...
I did not make the tiering here.

I am against this notion myself lmao.
 
StrymULTRA said:
You missed the entire point. I mean that being between two things =/= being bigger than those.

Already countered. Stop vomiting the same points.

That's because is outside the multiverse, aka needs a higher range.

And yes, you can still be outside a multiverse without transcending it.

Because is something between all timelines, so ofc it'd be different than that. But it does not mean it transcends those.

Read this, carefully.
Click to expand...
If you contain something at the absolute bare minimum you’re equal to size to it and that’s if everything is filled

It joins the timelines together you agreed with that point

the difference is a road doesn’t house cities the CoT is seperated but houses it as something embedded into itself

That’d still be countable infinite if it’s uncountably infinite it’s automatically Low 1-C
godofice said:
Also I keep seeing beyond baseline 2-A AP and range so I’m gonna quote this from the FAQ

Q: Is destroying multiple infinite multiverses a better feat than destroying a single one?​

​

​

A: In spite of what our intuitions may tell us, destroying or fully affecting multiple infinite-sized multiverses is in fact not better than doing the same to a single infinite multiverse, and thus, not above the "baseline" for 2-A

The reason is that the total amount of universes contained in a collection of multiple infinitely-sized multiverses (even one consisting of infinitely many of them) is in fact equal to the amount of universes contained in a single one of the multiverses that form this ensemble: It is countably infinite, as the union of countably-many countable sets is itself countable, and thus does not differ in size from its components. The only general difference between multiple infinitely-sized multiverses and a single one is representation. What is considered to be multiple multiverses in one fiction could be considered a single multiverse in another, and vice versa, without the objective properties of those collections of universes changing. The only difference is where an author decided to draw the line between what belongs to the same multiverse and not. Thus, only an uncountably infinite number of universes actually makes any difference in terms of Attack Potency, at this scale.

This illustrates some of the more unintuitive properties of sets with infinite elements: Namely, given a set X, it being a subset of another set Y does not imply that Y > X in terms of size. An example of this is how the set of all natural numbers contains both the odd numbers and even numbers, yet all of these sets in fact have the same number of elements.

Similar to Attack Potency, affecting multiple multiverses by default can not be considered a feat of superior Range to affecting a single one. As mentioned before there is no real difference between the size or properties of one or multiple multiverses. Hence there can be no objective difference in range either. This is made even worse by the fact that what we considered multiversal range, as the distance between universes or the distances between things in or between multiverses, is usually not directly stated or quantifiable in fiction, but instead is approximated by the number of universes. That idea becomes meaningless if we try to quantify different ranges within sets of universes of equal numbers. As a consequence, even if one verse gave an indirect indicator of different ranges in its multiverse it would be impossible to compare to a different fiction where such a quantification doesn't exist.
For example, if travelling to another multiverse is said to take longer than travelling within the same one, that would seem to be an indication of different ranges, but at the same time one can not compare those informations to another fiction, as there is no way to tell how travelling within the same multiverse in another fiction compares range wise to either of those distances.

However, feats regarding affecting multiple multiverses may indeed qualify as higher range if the verse itself treats it as such. Those feats need to be relatively explicit and objective. For example, one multiverse being outside of the range of an effect or of the power of a character that can affect one infinite multiverse doesn't necessarily mean the multiverse is further away. Other factors such as differences in nature and domain of the multiverses or characters could, amongst other many other factors, also be the reason.
Click to expand...
That’s possible but it’s legit referred to as a Super Space Time and Super Dimensional so with those 2 statements as well it’s clear Beyond Space Time means superiority over space time as well if “Super Space Time” doesn’t spell that out already but just in case it’s brought up I want to mention these statements mean nothing alone but with the nature of the CoT and how it operates this is clear superiority over space time aligns with the part of the faq you sent
 
godofice said:
If you contain something at the absolute bare minimum you’re equal to size to it and that’s if everything is filled

It joins the timelines together you agreed with that point
Click to expand...
So you concede thar CoT is not bigger than the multiverse?
godofice said:
the difference is a road doesn’t house cities the CoT is seperated but houses it as something embedded into itself
Click to expand...
That's the funny thing, the CoT had 0 proofs of it housing timelines without weird ass interpretations.
godofice said:
That’d still be countable infinite if it’s uncountably infinite it’s automatically Low 1-C
Click to expand...
Clearly not the case here.
godofice said:
That’s possible but it’s legit referred to as a Super Space Time and Super Dimensional so with those 2 statements as well it’s clear Beyond Space Time means superiority over space time as well if “Super Space Time” doesn’t spell that out already but just in case it’s brought up I want to mention these statements mean nothing alone but with the nature of the CoT and how it operates this is clear superiority over space time aligns with the part of the faq you sent
Click to expand...
It doesn't for the reasons I've already told. You're not addressing my points, you're saying just "it qualifies because it does" and nothing else.

Gonna wait an answer from @DarkDragonMedeus and @LordGriffin1000 here anyway because this is getting ridiculous.
 
StrymULTRA said:
It's more something among the likes of the Nightmare Realm of Gravity Falls, which is a place which between the dimensions while also being outside of them.



But of course we do not make it Low 1-C on wiki, otherwise it would have happened eons ago trust me.

But besides, being between does not make a thing bigger. A bridge that is between two cities is not necessairly bigger than the cities themselves.
Click to expand...

35c.jpg
 
StrymULTRA said:
So you concede thar CoT is not bigger than the multiverse?

That's the funny thing, the CoT had 0 proofs of it housing timelines without weird ass interpretations.

Clearly not the case here.

It doesn't for the reasons I've already told. You're not addressing my points, you're saying just "it qualifies because it does" and nothing else.

Gonna wait an answer from @DarkDragonMedeus and @LordGriffin1000 here anyway because this is getting ridiculous.
Click to expand...
No if it was the same exact size there would be no spaces as it’d just be filled with timelines

there’s no weird intepretations universes and timelines looking small doesn’t mean anything

You saying clearly not the case here when everything makes it seem like it’s the case isn’t really a counter

No it just shows clear superiority and qualitative superiority that you were looking for and that beyond space and time can sometimes only be referring to being outside of space time but here it’s outside but superior to you’re ignoring the rest of us the stuff
 
godofice said:
No if it was the same exact size there would be no spaces as it’d just be filled with timelines
Click to expand...
Not necessarily there are as many odd (counting set) numbers as there are counting set numbers in total yet there are still numbers in between odd integers. Is it possible that the multiverse is an infinite subset of the COT.
as in the crack of time contains the multiverse but still has bijection with the infinite timelines, meaning it is still countably infinite.
Of course none of what I said matters if you can get low 1-c by being infinitely larger than a low 2-c structure
 
Last edited:
No it's a heros thread this needs to be at least 10 pages long that ends in someone trying to downgrade something due to some very dumb reasons
 
Planck69 said:
This feels like a whataboutism. Physically holding up a space-time continuum is a plain Immeasurable feat. Idk what issues Alien X has though.
Click to expand...
Uh I am having exams tho but Alien X lifting strength was needed to be updated to immeasurable, I've already told many friends of mine Off site, so whataboutism is not really a right thing here.
 
segetero said:
If low 2-c is considered infinite 4-d space then there should be no difference between any Tier 2 ap or range wise as there is not an infinity larger than a countable infinity but smaller than an uncountable infinity
Click to expand...
Apparently Ultima is preparing a thread to address that. It will be called "Tier 2: The Unfuckening." Tier 2 in general is pretty weird in this site compared to the rules for the other tiers.

For example, Low 1-C is just have 5D-6D power. 1-C is just have 7D-9D power. High 1-C is just have 10D-11D power. 1-B means having 12D and any other finite dimensional power. Tier 11 also works like that, from 2-D, to 1-D. to 0-D. Tier 10-3 is just having a certain amount of 3D power, anything from infinitesimal to infinite 3D. Tier 2 is the only one where you have to be on a specific dimensional level (4D), but also have a certain degree of them, even though Tier 2 are all infinite by default which means the "value" for Low 2-C and 2-A is pretty much the same. Or am I missing something here.
 
Last edited:
Regardless in all of this I still don't see anything which hints at CoT being bigger.

An analogy I can make is that the CoT is a series of roads and the cities are the timelines. The system of roads is both outside those cities, but also between them.

"But it cannot be reached from normal 2-A stuff!"

No shit, it's still outside said cosmology, given that is sealed off the flow of time while also being close to it.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I was apparently not receiving messages from this thread despite following it. What is going on here now?
Click to expand...
Think we’ll need Ultima tbh
StrymULTRA said:
Regardless in all of this I still don't see anything which hints at CoT being bigger.

An analogy I can make is that the CoT is a series of roads and the cities are the timelines. The system of roads is both outside those cities, but also between them.

"But it cannot be reached from normal 2-A stuff!"

No shit, it's still outside said cosmology, given that is sealed off the flow of time while also being close to it.
Click to expand...
it houses it though roads don’t contain cities inside of them they just lead to them the CoT houses and connects all infinite timelines and has statements of being Superior to Space Time and Beyond Space Time also regarding range
godofice said:
Also I keep seeing beyond baseline 2-A AP and range so I’m gonna quote this from the FAQ

Q: Is destroying multiple infinite multiverses a better feat than destroying a single one?​

​

​

A: In spite of what our intuitions may tell us, destroying or fully affecting multiple infinite-sized multiverses is in fact not better than doing the same to a single infinite multiverse, and thus, not above the "baseline" for 2-A

The reason is that the total amount of universes contained in a collection of multiple infinitely-sized multiverses (even one consisting of infinitely many of them) is in fact equal to the amount of universes contained in a single one of the multiverses that form this ensemble: It is countably infinite, as the union of countably-many countable sets is itself countable, and thus does not differ in size from its components. The only general difference between multiple infinitely-sized multiverses and a single one is representation. What is considered to be multiple multiverses in one fiction could be considered a single multiverse in another, and vice versa, without the objective properties of those collections of universes changing. The only difference is where an author decided to draw the line between what belongs to the same multiverse and not. Thus, only an uncountably infinite number of universes actually makes any difference in terms of Attack Potency, at this scale.

This illustrates some of the more unintuitive properties of sets with infinite elements: Namely, given a set X, it being a subset of another set Y does not imply that Y > X in terms of size. An example of this is how the set of all natural numbers contains both the odd numbers and even numbers, yet all of these sets in fact have the same number of elements.

Similar to Attack Potency, affecting multiple multiverses by default can not be considered a feat of superior Range to affecting a single one. As mentioned before there is no real difference between the size or properties of one or multiple multiverses. Hence there can be no objective difference in range either. This is made even worse by the fact that what we considered multiversal range, as the distance between universes or the distances between things in or between multiverses, is usually not directly stated or quantifiable in fiction, but instead is approximated by the number of universes. That idea becomes meaningless if we try to quantify different ranges within sets of universes of equal numbers. As a consequence, even if one verse gave an indirect indicator of different ranges in its multiverse it would be impossible to compare to a different fiction where such a quantification doesn't exist.
For example, if travelling to another multiverse is said to take longer than travelling within the same one, that would seem to be an indication of different ranges, but at the same time one can not compare those informations to another fiction, as there is no way to tell how travelling within the same multiverse in another fiction compares range wise to either of those distances.

However, feats regarding affecting multiple multiverses may indeed qualify as higher range if the verse itself treats it as such. Those feats need to be relatively explicit and objective. For example, one multiverse being outside of the range of an effect or of the power of a character that can affect one infinite multiverse doesn't necessarily mean the multiverse is further away. Other factors such as differences in nature and domain of the multiverses or characters could, amongst other many other factors, also be the reason.
Click to expand...
 
You do realize that "Super Space Time" does not mean Higher Dimensional from its own, right?

From the FAQ that you love to copypaste so much...

Transcend space and time can also refer to a spacetime continuum being different to a "regular" spacetime continuum (Say, a strange-looking reality that may hold a few different physical laws, for example) or slightly do be more complex than a regular universe, even significantly so, but not qualitatively superior.

And you have no proofs of it being superior, it's just outside said universes.
 
StrymULTRA said:
You do realize that "Super Space Time" does not mean Higher Dimensional from its own, right?

From the FAQ that you love to copypaste so much...

Transcend space and time can also refer to a spacetime continuum being different to a "regular" spacetime continuum (Say, a strange-looking reality that may hold a few different physical laws, for example) or slightly do be more complex than a regular universe, even significantly so, but not qualitatively superior.

And you have no proofs of it being superior, it's just outside said universes.
Click to expand...
I know it doesn’t but it can be supporting evidence

The CoT isn’t a space time continumm it transcends time there’s no time it contains timelines though

Statements plus the nature of it and how it views 4D things as dots
StrymULTRA said:
About Ultima, he himself said that according to the rules he has only 2 weeks of time to answer. Otherwise we can just ignore him.

And is since this February since he said that he'll comment.

So y'all can stop begging him because we do not need him.
Click to expand...
Ultima said he’d evaluate this crt but that he’s busy over discord to god we do need him because it’s a staff that’s thread locked and he can give his thoughts that align with the how tier 1 works if he thinks or doesn’t think this qualifies
 
godofice said:
The CoT isn’t a space time continumm it transcends time there’s no time it contains timelines though

Statements plus the nature of it and how it views 4D things as dots
Click to expand...
I already did debunk this whole premise.
godofice said:
Ultima said he’d evaluate this crt but that he’s busy over discord to god we do need him because it’s a staff that’s thread locked and he can give his thoughts that align with the how tier 1 works if he thinks or doesn’t think this qualifies
Click to expand...
He said that more than a month ago. He had two weeks of time, and holding on a CRT because of a single staff member is ridiculous.

You can call other staff to evalutate the issue at hand though, just not Ultima.
 
StrymULTRA said:
I already did debunk this whole premise.

He said that more than a month ago. He had two weeks of time, and holding on a CRT because of a single staff member is ridiculous.

You can call other staff to evalutate the issue at hand though, just not Ultima.
Click to expand...
What debunk? The CoT has no time but holds an infinite amount of timelines in it? Are you saying the CoT has time in it or are you saying it doesn’t have timelines in it? Either one is wrong

It’s not ridiculous since he said he’d evaluate this crt and this crt was reopened for that and plus the staff in here are fine with that

Luffy already did that so now we’re waiting for Ultima I think DontTalkDT would be fine too but I’m not sure
 
godofice said:
What debunk? The CoT has no time but holds an infinite amount of timelines in it? Are you saying the CoT has time in it or are you saying it doesn’t have timelines in it? Either one is wrong
Click to expand...
Latter, and I already showcased how is the case.
godofice said:
It’s not ridiculous since he said he’d evaluate this crt and this crt was reopened for that and plus the staff in here are fine with that
Click to expand...
I don't give a ****, rules are rules.
 
godofice said:
What debunk? The CoT has no time but holds an infinite amount of timelines in it? Are you saying the CoT has time in it or are you saying it doesn’t have timelines in it? Either one is wrong

It’s not ridiculous since he said he’d evaluate this crt and this crt was reopened for that and plus the staff in here are fine with that

Luffy already did that so now we’re waiting for Ultima I think DontTalkDT would be fine too but I’m not sure
Click to expand...
I will do it now
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
Dragon My Balls Through Broken Glass [DBH Downgrades, Continued]
2 3
Replies
95
Views
13K
GarrixianXD
GarrixianXD
Ednaxel2
  • Locked
Toeiverse Cell Upgrade (3-A)
Replies
15
Views
1K
Damage3245
Damage3245
omegabronic
Dragon Ball's Main Cannon Timeline number downgrade
4 5 6
Replies
229
Views
12K
omegabronic
omegabronic
LuffyRuffy46307
  • Locked
Back to the beginning
Replies
9
Views
667
Hasty12345
Hasty12345
Vietthai96
  • Locked
DBH Additions 2024 Edition
Replies
18
Views
3K
Vietthai96
Vietthai96
Back
Top