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Dragon Ball: Finite Universe
- Thread starter Nostredam
- Start date
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agree fra
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- #163
¯\(ツ)/¯
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Considering I fully expected this to be already at page 5 by the time I could comeback, this is completely tame. It isn't necessary (for now).
Da3ggman
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A shit ton of infinite statements that might not actually mean infinite
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No, this is the last thing to worry about, it's about inconsistencies.
Da3ggman
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My bad
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Endless denial, hyperbole, and poetry, that's all.
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Most agreeing with the topic.
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So staff consensus is all over the place, which makes sense as we currently have the OP properly organized and no concise counterargument has been provided.
I will state, again, for the disagreement side to organize all their thoughts into a single post, as the individual tackling of points already have certain staff on edge and want to move this to staff discussion.
I will say, am kinda proud you guys didn't completely spammed the thread, as I only deleted very few derailing comments.
Now then, I hope it doesn't come that I will have to move this to the staff board. Take a step back, breath, contact each other through PM or discord, write a conjoined rebuttal post, submit it.
Organization is key for such a big revision.
I will state, again, for the disagreement side to organize all their thoughts into a single post, as the individual tackling of points already have certain staff on edge and want to move this to staff discussion.
I will say, am kinda proud you guys didn't completely spammed the thread, as I only deleted very few derailing comments.
Now then, I hope it doesn't come that I will have to move this to the staff board. Take a step back, breath, contact each other through PM or discord, write a conjoined rebuttal post, submit it.
Organization is key for such a big revision.
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This is such a blatantly incorrect summary, I'm tempted to just delete it.
The actual summary: The counterarguments have lacked any sort of organization, are all over the place, some don't even address the proper problems as raised by the OP, which still proposes a reasonable take on the whole thing: While the translations may be correct, the portrayal overall is inconsistent, which coupled with the fact that the wordage used is more in support of hyperbolic descriptions, suggest they aren't meant to be taken literally.
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Ahem, we are waiting for @Executor_N0, after that we will give our opinion, maybe it may take a while.
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Then why respond to seemingly every small bit on top of taking jabs at the opposition? Simply don't comment until you have an actual meaningful thing to say. You're just wasting time.
Ringki_64
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i guess what he tried to say is
there are times poetic terms are used to define something and with op representation, i agree with this thread
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It's not "literally useless" because the point made here was not that King Piccolo had infinite power but that the term "infinite" was used in a nonliteral sense
Ah and the statement didn't come from Piccolo himself it's a narration from the manga. so it works as an example of the termology being used "villain hype" rather than a literal portray of infinity which strengthens the OP
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In light of all the evidence brought up concerning the hyperbolic and interchangeable nature of many of the infinite statements as well as many examples of earlier hyperbole in the series
I agree with OP
I agree with OP
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I swear, it's like this wiki has amnesia sometimes
Concerning all your translation nitpicks, here's what a native Japanese speaker has to say:
Concerning Dragon Ball GT statement:
Your 'argument' is that since the spaceship made a stop on a planet in the next episode, and the narrator said 'Goku, Trunks and Pan-- is the spaceship heading off to boundless galaxies-- ', then it was hyperbole. This is really dumb, to say the least.
If a car is heading off to the South and makes a stop at whatever location is in that direction, do you think that implies that the southern direction actually doesn't exist or is hyperbole?
Concerning the Inconsistencies:
-The Observable Universe:
But in DB, Earth isn't the point of reference.
You can even make that conclusion yourself, seeing at the first quote you provided has Earth at the edge of the universe, which is impossible since if it were it'd have to be at the center.
In real life we are still exploring and learning about what lies beyond space from Earth as our starting point and our center, in DB the Universe's structure is already fully known, set in stone, alongside Earth's position within it lying at the edge of the observable universe.
Concerning the Universe terminology:
This was just addressed by @SSJGeminiJJ in this well made thread, and approved in this wiki. Read it, it will clear up all of your misconceptions about the DB world's structure.
Concerning all your translation nitpicks, here's what a native Japanese speaker has to say:
Concerning Dragon Ball GT statement:
Your 'argument' is that since the spaceship made a stop on a planet in the next episode, and the narrator said 'Goku, Trunks and Pan-- is the spaceship heading off to boundless galaxies-- ', then it was hyperbole. This is really dumb, to say the least.
If a car is heading off to the South and makes a stop at whatever location is in that direction, do you think that implies that the southern direction actually doesn't exist or is hyperbole?
Concerning the Inconsistencies:
-The Observable Universe:
Off from the very start and by your sources, your argument has a glaring contradiction. In real life, we refer to Earth as being at the center of the Universe due to the observable universe being the region of space that is visible to us. Earth is our point of reference
But in DB, Earth isn't the point of reference.
You can even make that conclusion yourself, seeing at the first quote you provided has Earth at the edge of the universe, which is impossible since if it were it'd have to be at the center.
In real life we are still exploring and learning about what lies beyond space from Earth as our starting point and our center, in DB the Universe's structure is already fully known, set in stone, alongside Earth's position within it lying at the edge of the observable universe.
Concerning the Universe terminology:
This was just addressed by @SSJGeminiJJ in this well made thread, and approved in this wiki. Read it, it will clear up all of your misconceptions about the DB world's structure.
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- #181
Which doesn't adress anything relevant with the OP. The translations are not wrong; the interpretation with certain words is. Your post does not contest the direct mentions of three scans using a word that is figuratively talking about something infinite. In fact, it also doesn't adress the part of said Cover Art having almost no credibility at all.
My secondary argument (you, again, never adress the part that in this same scan the Hateshinai word is being used) is that one cannot take the citation literally as it would be implying that Bulma's spaceship can head off to infinite galaxies. Not just some galaxies, but an infinite number of them. And that cannot be true, because we see that the narration from EP2 is pretty much contradicted with the fact that in EP3 they initially don't get out of an single galaxy.
Which is the exact reason why calling it "observable universe" is wrong, as the context of the scene implies that Earth is on the edge of said "observable" universe; adding the two quotes from OP and it's a straightforward notion.
I fail to see how the thread you linked is relevant here, as the proposal was this:
Yet, the OP is covering arguments about the Universe 7 itself not being infinite in size; it never addresses Afterlife or Kaioshin Realm.
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So let me get this straight. The translations are accurate, the words and phrases are accurate, it's just that you have a different interpretation of them?
Your interpretation of the words 'infinite' and 'endless' are different to what the literal meaning of the words are, even though they make perfect sense in their contextualized phrases?
Sorry but, who are you to make to make such a point? This isn't a philosophical thing where it's up to interpretation, if a guidebook that was made for the exact purpose of telling information about something says that 'The Universe is endless' and you have a baseless different interpretation saying that it isn't endless, your argument has no merit.
I speak four languages, I'm well aware that words of grandiose stature can be used figuratively. But just because they can be, doesn't mean they are. Just because some can say 'this endless sea' in a figurative and fashion, doesn't mean that the phrase 'this endless universe' is also figurative, especially when coming out of a guidebook.
I didn't address your cover art point because I didn't find it worth addressing. The Chozenshuu are condensed versions of a plethora of other guidebooks including the Daizenshuu, they're not a reprint for the same pages to appear twice. And you stating that it's reviewed by Akira Toriyama to strengthen that point doesn't make sense, since the same goes for the Daizenshuu.
No, you're wrong. It absolutely can be true. A spaceship can head off to infinite galaxies, without reaching it. If X is an infinite distance away from me, and I start heading towards the direction of X then yes, the phrase 'Pineapple is heading to the infinitely far away X!' is a logical phrase.
And you keep saying that they didn't even get out of a single galaxy. Not that this matters in the grand scheme of things, but what even is your proof of this? I don't recall it being mentioned that they were still in the same galaxy, I only remember it being stated that it had been a week since they flew off. Is this another case of your 'interpretations'?
..Yeah?
I mean it came out of your own mouth, 'the context of the scene implies that Earth is on the edge of said "observable" universe". Yep, that's what I'm arguing for. Did you accidentally end up on the same page as me or?
The OP is covering arguments about how all of them are seperate, and individually infinite. The Living World aka 'the Universe' is what all of the scans in this thread refer to, which is in itself split into an observable infinitely expanding section of light (the Observable Universe), and an actually infinite section of dark (The Unobservable Universe)
I was hoping to make this structure more clearer to you.
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I suggest you interpret better the reasoning from the OP. It's not a subjective matter like me having a different interpretation, but rather an objective matter like the words having a deep context that no one here mentions. I backed up my claims with a highlight on the scans pointing out the words (example) and explaining their meaning with several sources. You should read the OP first.
I will repeat: the specific word used (Hateshinai) is only used in figurative sentences, not literal ones. That's it.
Quoting:
The fact that the cover art was discarded from it is already enough proof to not take that with an so high credibility people wants it to be. It wasn't considered an relevant information to appear again in Chozenshu. It's also worth mentioning that Herms himself stated this is simply an poetic statement of the universe and in the next "page" (left middle section of the cover art) it is said that the universe is infinitely expanding, not infinite in size. Also, I never claimed that it being reviewed by Akira supports that in contrast with Daizenshuu, I was explaining what the Chozenshu is in the first place.
Can't agree. One cannot head off to something infinitely far as this would be pointless in the first place, unless argued that said someone has Infinite Speed. Implying that Bulma's spaceship can head off to infinite galaxies is not just implying that it can travel through some galaxies, but an infinite number of them, since the metric being used is an infinite value rather than a finite one, which precisely discards the citation being literal.
Read the OP:
They are inside a cluster of stars, meaning they are not passing through galaxies or getting out one of them.
Good we can agree that it's not referring to the "observable universe", but rather its full scope (Universe 7), then.
That seems like headcanon, to the say the least. Not only the quotes from Daizenshuu 4 were already contested, but the universe having an edge/center is referring to the actual Universe 7 Macrocosm. Again, read the OP:
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You are not understanding the point at all, it is not his interpretation, it is very way the word used is used in japanese language, it means infinite, but it is literal infinite, that is how the word used in japanese is used
it would when that is the the way the very word used is used
if it is the "observable" universe then Earth can't be on the edge of it, the center of the observable universe is Earth since thar is thr middle from which we see arround
If you want to use this argument then you must also not use the infinite galaxies statements, since that would contradict either way
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OP Summary
#1 Argument – "Hateshinai" is a figurative term that does not assert an literal infinite measure, which is required for arguing about an High 3-A Universe.
#1 Rebutal Attempt – "Hateshinai can be used literally since Mugen also uses it figuratively, while also being literal in some contexts."
My Counter Argument – While Mugen can be used with both meanings, Hateshinai specifically can't, as all the usages of this word are figuratively talking about something endless/infinite, like an conversation, an sea, etc. The Linguee Dictionary demonstrates that directly through several metaphorical/non-literal phrases were Hateshinai is present, and the other two dictionaries (Weblio and Collins) supports said notion.
#2 Argument – "Hirogaru" is a term that, by being converted from Japanese to English, form a gerund phrase, which in turns means that the universe is not infinite in size, but it's expanding infinitely.
No Rebuttal Attempts (So Far).
#3.1 Argument – "An infinite space of light and darkness" is a poetic description of the Universe Chapter Cover Art from Daizenshuu 4. It is not to be taken literally.
#1 Rebutal Attempt – "Calling something poetic doesn't necessarily invalidates what it says."
My Counter Argument – Although that's half true, the full context is what makes it not literal. Herms' poetic statement is not only about the "Infinitely expanding and galaxy illuminations", but also to the "An infinite space of light and darkness where the unknown lives", as they are in the same section. And, because of that, this section is not to be taken literally as an infinite universe since the description is that of the space being infinitely expanding (stretching to galaxies and millions of light years), not actually infinite in size.
#2 Rebutal Attempt – "Herms is just stating his opinion about it being poetic."
My Counter Argument – Herms is the very translator of the Daizenshuu 4 (and other ones). He's a reliable source about translations regarding Dragon Ball, therefore it's not merely his opinion, is an objective answer were he says it's poetic, as this is what the text gave him to interpret.
#3.2 Argument – The canocity/credibility of said Cover Art is heavily dubious, as this page section of Daizenshuu 4 was considered so irrelevant that it wasn't even included in Chozenshu, which is the remake of Daizenshuu.
No Rebuttal Attempts (So Far).
#4 Argument (SECONDARY) – GT episode 2's statement is hyperbolic, as Bulma's spaceship can't get through an infinite number of galaxies taking the wording literally and basing off episode 3 premisse.
#1 Rebutal Attempt – "They're heading off to boundless galaxies to travel through them, not actually go to every single one."
My Counter Argument – Implying that Bulma's spaceship can head off to infinite galaxies is not just implying that it can travel through some galaxies, but an infinite number of them, since the metric being used is an infinite value rather than a finite one, which precisely discards the citation being literal, since on episode 3 they initially didn't even pass through multiple galaxies.
#5.1 Argument – The universe can't be infinite-sized as it has an center and edge.
#1 Rebutal Attempt – "Infinity can have an edge and center in fiction."
My Counter Argument – Standardly, infinity does not have an edge and center in three-dimensional spaces (a.k.a normal measure of distance/space). All given examples on this thread are not related to that topic.
#5.2 Argument – Inconsistent rantings through finite power-level measures.
No Rebuttal Attempts (only examples that don't fit in the OP proposal).
Overall
I think this scheme should work.
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Even the narrator panel uses the word "infinite". i am just showing how DB tends to use the word in a flowery manner. Show has literally zero scans of infinite universe from primary canon and the has literally anti-feats like bulma calculating the radius of the universe and having centre and edge. The arguments of infinity having edge only makes sense from a higher dimensional perspective which DB doesn't have.
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I literally see no proof here.
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literally half of your OP is dedicated to how Hateshinai is only used figuratively lmao
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Yet no one has provided arguments for the otherwise, while I provided three dictionaries for it. Throwing a Discord screenshot without any back up is a baseless claim, dude.
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So a closer comparison would be like instead of "everywhere" a person would instead use "ubiquitous"? If it is fancy speak.
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I am the person who actually trust a japanese native speaker than a dictionary because he would figure out what it means in its context.
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And in context we know without a doubt it was nothing but hype text which is obvious in King Piccolo case. Meanwhile, the quotes in the OP could have been misinterpreted which is why this thread is happening, which are clear differences.
Anywho, if the OP has the more clearer interpretation of the wording in the scans used not the OP then I agree with the it. I've already brought up the issue with the edge in the orginal thread so I'm not going to argue that.
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Ya, as Milly pointed out, I would prefer:
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It was not even an argument, so try better
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Bruh executor already translated these scans and said the context can refer to an infinite universe can we get him in here? We literally went through translations when this first got accepted and if translations and context is the main argument we can get Executor to reconfirm plain and simple can any staff ping executor or ask him on his message wall?
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So it CAN be used literally which is what this OP is heavily reliant on, having multiple actual Japanese speakers say it doesn't have to be figurative, but also can be used literally. Not saying that's the end all be all, but it can be used literally, and these sites you linked not saying anything directly that infinite can't be used literally within the context of "Hateshinai"
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The word has multiple meanings, and attempting to refute this by using a dictionary is a weak counter-argument because the meaning of the word is context-dependent.
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