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Dragon Ball: Finite Universe

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CloverDragon03 said:
Ngl I find myself on the disagreeing side of things. The GT "infinite galaxies" thing is iffy, yes, but everything else is pretty solid to me so my stance on believing Universe 7 is infinite in size remains unchanged
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Pretty sure the GT thing is the biggest thing since we can't use stuff from Guidebooks unless they're actually alluded in the original material
 
Nostredam said:
This is basically a repetition of what other users have said. I never claimed that the kanji does not mean infinite, but the context employed with this word doesn't assert a literal infinite-sized structure, or anything similar. That's why I put both Weblio and Linguee to demonstrate how the word is used in sentences, instead of just looking for it's definition.

Also, it's three dictionaries, not one.
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It appears that you are utilizing an unconventional interpretation of a particular term, although you have not explicitly claimed it. You seem to suggest that this interpretation represents the most precise "perspective," while other sources, such as the translator of wiki and various dictionaries, often use a more literal definition.

The context in question does not seem to be metaphorical, as evidenced by numerous supporting statements, with the exception of a single reference to infinite expansion.

Your only rebuttal to alternative interpretations of the context is to suggest that they are the result of mistranslation or misinterpretation, which seems like a selective approach to dismissing all other viewpoints.

Furthermore, it is unreasonable to assume that your interpretation is the only valid one, particularly since you have not provided a compelling argument to support this claim. As a result, your counter-argument appears weak and lacking in substance.
 
Kroneii1 said:
I disagree with this, basically this all boils down to "hateshinai =/= literally infinite", since one dictionary uses said kanji as an example in a figurative sentence (in other dictionaries the kanji literally means infinite), but that does not imply that it cannot be used to describe something literally, like the universe is infinite in size or that it contains boundless galaxies.
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this is not close to what all boils down to, there are several parts of the op covering contradictions to the infinite universe in the show, independently from the word used in the guides
 
Some people asked me, so just talking about this "endless" and "infinite" thing, it's the same thing.

The first kanji in Mugen is "lack of", "nothingness", "no-"

The second kanji is "limit", "boundary", "end"

Mugen is, extracting the entire meaning out of the word, "that which has no end/limit, endless/limitless".

It's true that it's often thought to be the most direct word to imply the meaning of "infinite" when wanting a direct parallel to our English usage of the word, but that doesn't mean all the uses of other words with the same definition are only "not literal" when mugen in itself can be also used in metaphorical situations (Thinking it's always literal gives those strange interpretations you might find in some places like calling the planet of Pokémon infinite because it says in some intros and endings)

About some words being more "poetic", it's very true, but that doesn't necessarily mean "not real" or "literal". If anything, some could say that addressing something like the full scope of the universe would immediately need some poetic language because it's something that is so detached from our lives. A lot of early works in regards to cosmology and the universe were very poetic in nature and if they can or not be understood as literal will depend on the interpretation, reason why there are so many religious and mythological branches out there is exactly because some people can't agree if some stuff is meant to be literal literal, or just a poetic description of something that doesn't represent the real thing.

In the end, what will really matter in any given work, more than the dictionary meaning of the words, is how it's used in that work. There are many cases like that even in English, and so it also is in Japanese. There are many usages of words that are basically nowhere to be found in dictionaries but are so common in Japanese fiction that you understand more of what it means by using examples from other fiction than by looking into an old dictionary description. I explained this before in those "space vs dimension" discussions in Japanese (Both Dragon Ball and Pokèmon), and that is a good example of something that just looking into a dictionary definition doesn't give the full scope of fictional usage. (Although I disagree with using Takao Koyama's commentaries as "WoG", the fact he gives that understanding in his answers shows that it's a valid interpretation of the text, which seems to be the discussion here in regards to Japanese).

Basically this "it depends" is the case for all the things here, both from different words used to mean "infinite", "endless", etc, and also "spread out, expanding". Looking into other examples, it could be perfectly fine to interpret something "spreading out infinitely" as being "something that has an end, but is in constant expansion" or just "it's infinite and always expanding". Both cases can be seen as valid interpretations of it, and I see no reason why one should be "the standard over the other". It all boils down to the interpretation of the work and how it's used (As there's no deep and perfect meaning that you can always extract out of something by knowing Japanese perfectly, uniqueness in the fictional work sometimes will bring out new meanings that can become so common that they sometimes become the new norm).

As such, the end of the thread already gives another reason to discuss it, as even if there were just uses of "mugen" isolated without any word about "expansion", it could still be something to be contested in regards to how the cosmology itself works in experience, and that seems to be the biggest reason why it might be better to not see the world of DB as being usable infinite.
 
ImmortalDread said:
It appears that you are utilizing an unconventional interpretation of a particular term, although you have not explicitly claimed it. You seem to suggest that this interpretation represents the most precise "perspective," while other sources, such as the translator of wiki and various dictionaries, often use a more literal definition.

The context in question does not seem to be metaphorical, as evidenced by numerous supporting statements, with the exception of a single reference to infinite expansion.

Your only rebuttal to alternative interpretations of the context is to suggest that they are the result of mistranslation or misinterpretation, which seems like a selective approach to dismissing all other viewpoints.

Furthermore, it is unreasonable to assume that your interpretation is the only valid one, particularly since you have not provided a compelling argument to support this claim. As a result, your counter-argument appears weak and lacking in substance.
Click to expand...

I'll refrain to run over the general, same disagreements we have so far. Instead, I'll point out my point of view from what you message implies regarding of my counter argument appearing "weak" or "lacking in substance".

Firstly, the reason why the context is metaphorical is because the usage of the word is referring to that. Quoting myself:

Also, I don't know why a sentence being used two times only (with a little change of the last kanji) somehow proves that it doesn't sound like a metaphor, considering that if it were indeed infinite, terms like 無限 (Mugen) and similars would have been used instead.
Click to expand...

I backed up my claims by using examples of how Hateshinai is used within sentences. So far, I haven't seen anyone arguing (with proof) the otherwise, hence why I consider the interpretation of not being literal the only appropriate in this CRT.

Secondly, this is not "evidenced by numerous supporting statements". In fact, the Hateshinai word only appears in three scans:

1. Daizenshuu 7
2. Chozenshu 4
3. DBGT EP2

The Chozenshu 4 is basically repeating the context of the Daizenshuu 7's scan. Quoting myself again:

Because the messages are not in the same guide, they are separated. The first one is Daizenshuu 7, and the second one is Chozenshu 4, which is a remake of Daizenshuu and covers the content from Daizenshuu 7.
Click to expand...

As such, you cannot say it is evidenced by numerous statements, as it's only one statement being cited again in its remake and updated version (the Chozenshu). The GT one shouldn't even have any more doubts, as it's clearly hyperbolic.

Thirdly, there is no "mistranslation" (again), only misinterpreted things about the usage of the word in question.

For that reasons, I pretty much keep my position in regards of this argument, regardless if anyone disagree with the same reasoning that I've tried to explain with detail.
 
I will address them tomorrow as it became late, but one thing I would like to address, you are linking evidences does not make your stance stronger.

And specially when it comes to "dependent-context" terms. Because as the translator said above, you are simply arguing way deep while the terms very much are literal in many sense and can be used as well metaphorical.

You also said this before but I forget to address it. You said why author did not use mugan term instead? You are aware that even this term can be used metaphorical?

This is not much rebuttal.

As for now good night.
 
Currently we have agrees from myself, Damage, and Maverick. Three is enough votes

Griffin said he sort of conditionally agrees but I'm not sure if he answered concretely. DDM said he was mostly neutral leaning towards keeping things as they are.

Tracer said he'd comment later.

@LordTracer @LordGrffin1000 @DarkDragonMedeus

Would you guys like to give a concrete vote Agree/Disagree/Neutral?
 
ImmortalDread said:
I will address them tomorrow as it became late, but one thing I would like to address, you are linking evidences does not make your stance stronger.

And specially when it comes to "dependent-context" terms. Because as the translator said above, you are simply arguing way deep while the terms very much are literal in many sense and can be used as well metaphorical.

You also said this before but I forget to address it. You said why author did not use mugan term instead? You are aware that even this term can be used metaphorical?

This is not much rebuttal.

As for now good night.
Click to expand...

It's fine by me. However, I "asked" why the author didn't use Mugen instead because this one is probably the most used to refer to something actually infinite in size (literally), rather than figuratively.

In this thread, the only scan that uses Mugen is the right middle Universe Chapter Cover Art from Daizenshuu 4, which I discarded because of:

  • Its full context (in the left middle part).
  • Having almost 0 credibility to say the least.
  • The Contradictions.

Anyway, good night.
 
Kroneii1 said:
I read the whole op, I thought that in this site accepts that an infinite size universe can have edges.
Click to expand...

An infinite universe in some contexts can indeed have an edge (like in an higher-dimensional perspective), but that's not the case here, as we are talking standard three-dimensional space (Tier 3).

I suggest you watching this video, which explains that a boundary in an infinite universe can be defined mathematically (not geometrically).

Ped2018 said:
Eh, i don't think Ant has strong thoughts about this topic.
Click to expand...

Shame.
 
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