Dragon Ball: 3-A Macrocosm

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Yeah that quote itself seems to be written by Herms in his old DB guide, please don't bring it up further.

The Hitchhiker's Guide to the DB Galaxy • Kanzenshuu

www.kanzenshuu.com

There's been an entire thread in the past week going over and accepting evidence for the Living World being Universe 7 and it's own universe anyway, it's completely unneeded

 

[Reiner04]

Hard Disagree, FRA.

 

[TiltedFN]

Dimensional/Space-Time Walls/Barriers​

The first argument is based on the idea that the realms contained within the Macrocosm are separated by dimensional walls, something that can also be expressed in the fact that they are separated by space-time (dimensional) barriers. In equivalence, separated by space-time. This argument is mostly used explaining the mechanic of Super Buu/Buuhan's feat and it's also used to proportionally scale the realms of the Macrocosm as having their individual space-time continuums.

What is wrong here is that being separated by dimensional walls is nowhere near close to prove that something automatically has a different space-time continuum. Most fictional feats that start in the Low 2-C ratings depends heavily on correctly interpretating Einstein's Theory of Relativity, and when we follow its postulates correctly, we find out that a singular space-time continuum can be separated by "walls" or "barriers" without needing another space-time continuum. Let's see:

Source #1:


Source #2:


Essentially, the idea of General Relativity refers that the "fabric" of the space-time continuum can curve upon itself due to the phenomenon of gravity. The more mass a object has, the deeper the curve. This explains why black holes can create distortions in the fabric of space-time, because their mass is high enough to do it, despite obviously not being Low 2-C phenomenons or whatsoever:

Throwing in theory's isn't going to get you far here, you would have to prove that is how it actually works in dragon ball and prove that it discredits different spacetimes which were accepted many times over. We know the fabric of spacetime is literally just dimensional walls that separate all time and space of each dimension in the macrocosm, not some theory of relativity shit, it plays no factor here.

Basically, having a space-time (dimensional) boundary/limit/wall/barrier does not prove a different continuum, but rather a different state in the fabric of space-time due to the massive quantities of mass in certain regions. Indeed, that's the reason why Buuhan breaking through the dimensional walls would lead alternate dimensions to crash onto the Living World, because the wall is a boundary to their mass and the upper limit to not crash down. In short, any standard mention asserting a boundary in space-time can't be used to prove a 2-C structure, as it still falls under the same singular space-time continuum, which is precisely why 3D phenomenons/objects can distort space-time in the first place.

Again, you're just relying on theories without proving that is what's actually going on here, read the tiering system for more information on spacetime and when it is actually being affected, buuhan's vice shout wasn't breaking down some 3 dimensional spatial barrier, it was literally affecting all of space and time in the macrocosm which was already accepted in ultima's crt, and it's not a singular spacetime, thats like saying you cant have multiple spacetimes because they are all under the same timeline, or that each spacetime isnt actually separated by spacetime because its under a bigger one, it doesn't work like that, we have proof of the macrocosms holding their own spacetimes, because it was literally stated for the dimensions to be separated by space and time, and the existence of spatialtemporal barriers that can be broken. It happened in the buu saga, and the broly arc, with numerous statements from GT. All the spacetimes are literally just under a bigger spacetime (the timeline) its the same concept for ROSAT, it being contained within a bigger spacetime does not disprove 2-C.

Room of Spirit and Time & Sugoroku Space​

I'm not entirely sure if this wiki uses the RoSaT as a supporting evidence for 2-C Macrocosm, but regardless, I'll address it as well. The RoSaT is an another dimension outside the Universe 7 where the flow of time is different. As far as I know, having a "different flow of time" is not enough in the standards of this wiki to be considered another space-time continuum (which is true), so I'll skip explaining that. The interesting part comes from the Chozenshu 4, in The World of Dragon Ball section:

On this wiki, spacetimes are determined by having a different time axis, and being separated by a physical 3d volume, and its already accepted that the ROSAT does reside in the macrocosm as a subspace with the suguroku space as well, it seems you are lacking some knowledge on the tiering system, which makes your argument not make any sense.

People get from this quote the idea that both RoSaT and Sugoroku Space are different space-time continuums, because they "lack" a "concept" of time and space. People also get from it the idea that while the RoSaT is stated to exist outside the Universe 7, it can be applied to the general structure of the Macrocosm as it exists as a Subspace within it.

Regardless of it existing within the Macrocosm or not, the first part is wrong. "Lacking a concept of time and space" is a non-literal speech of the guide to emphasize the fact that the RoSaT lacks a conventional flow of time, as we can see in the exact same section of the Chozenshu 4:



Not only that, but this same guide explains that those Subspaces are Earth-sized, as we can see in another passage of the RoSaT (which is coherent from the manga were Goku says it is as big as the Earth, anyway):



What is important with that information is that "earth-sized space-time continuums" are not a thing, or at least, not something that guarantees a Low 2-C size, basing off the aforementioned Theory of Relativity, which asserts that a 4D Space-Time Continuum is only possible in universal models, something that the Tiering System perfectly recognizes:

Earth-sized spacetime continuums are a thing, it is just a pocket dimension, a spacetime being less than universal in size does not disprove being a spacetime, it just won't qualify as low 2-C. And this just means that you can have different spacetimes in another, which is part of the reason why the macrocosm is 2-C.

With that said, the RoSaT definitely is irrelevant here, and so is the Sugoroku Space if we folow the above analogy of the subspaces (what the Sugoroku Space is along with the RoSaT) being earth-sized. However, to not make this look unfair, let's address the Sugoroku Space separately:

The Sugoroku Space is argued to be a different space-time continuum by having the description of being an area between dimensions (space and time). That, as you people can tell, falls under the same argument of the Dimensional/Space-Time Walls/Barriers, literally. Let's take for example a real life idea about the phenomenon called Wormhole:



Basically, a wormhole acts as a structure that can connect different points/locations/areas of the same space-time continuum, for example, other regions of the universe (what the Sugoroku Space is). If we follow the definition we have of the Sugoroku Space, which is a world where people are sent when they are sucked into a wormhole or otherwise slip between dimensions, it's very clear cut that said space is only a subset region between two points of space and time of the universe, and not a full independent 4D continuum. While in some sci-fi verses an wormhole can connect to parallel universes (or timelines), there's no evidence for that in Dragon Ball and, as such, we have to use the standard definition of a wormhole, which doesn't prove the existence of more than one space-time continuum.

Why are you using the dragon ball wiki? Its fan made and only tells us the definition based on their perspective, we know that I.T or Kai kai can teleport between dimensions, and goku fell mid teleportation, which is when he fell into it, there is not wormhole mentioned at all, and your logic is flawed here, because "slipping between dimensions" in and of itself proves its not apart of any of the realms in the macrocosm and exist as its own spacetime continuum between dimensions.

Afterlife​

Perhaps the most tricky of all. The Afterlife is argued to be a separate space-time continuum because of the narration at the end of episode 8 from Dragon Ball Z:



Firstly, this will be the only thing that I'll respond in this section. Other mentions like the Afterlife supposedly having no time (more exactly, a different flow of time) or it being impossible to travel to it by normal means are gonna be ignored, since those things are irrelevant to argue about a different space-time continuum (especially because they refer to the astral nature of the place, which is why it's not accessible normally); at best, they can be used as supporting evidence, and not concrete evidence. With that said, while the quote seems straightforward, a little deep context is not mentioned:

Um no, it is concrete evidence that its only accessible by dying, or teleportation there I.E (dimensional travel) which teleportation techniques have been shown to do.

Um no, it is concrete evidence that its only accessible by dying, or teleportation there I.E (dimensional travel) which teleportation techniques have been shown to do.

• Space: The reason why they're on a separate space is because Goku and Gohan are essentially in different zones of the Macrocosm. Gohan in the Living World and Goku in the Afterlife.

This is your headcanon and misinterpretation of the statement entirely, they are on a separate space completely, theres no arguing semantics in this, the afterlife and living realm are spatially disconnected from each other, hence the different "space" part.

• 
  
• Time: The reason why they're on separate times is because both Goku and Gohan need to endure the harsh trials that awaits both of them; with Gohan, the sixth months of time training with Piccolo, and with Goku the time he passed on the Afterlife crossing the Snake Way and training with Kaiosama.

• What are you talking about? They are separated by "space and time" meaning goku and gohan are on completely different time axis and physical spaces entirely. 6 months in the afterlife is still 6 months on earth, just because time flows at the same rate, doesn't mean they are on the same time axis entirely.

Essentially, the narrator is not talking about (or insinuating) the Afterlife being a space-time continuum, but rather the situation both Goku and Gohan are, making a parallel as they are in different places and times. People would say that the narrator is indeed talking about a 4D Space-Time Continuum for the Afterlife, because he mentions Jikū, which relates to four dimensional continuum. While that is true, this is not the only definition of Jikū:

This sentence is just littered with head canon and more misinterpretation to the statement.

There are two definitions: one explaining a 4D continuum (the topic of this thread) and other explaining space and time as separate elements (i.e not a continuum). The one the narrator uses is obviously both elements separately. Not only the very sub makes it clear that the quote is "Separated by time and space" instead of "Separated by spacetime", but there's also the fact that narration has no reason to talk about a 4D continuum in the scene; in turn, it has reasons to talk about both elements as a parallel to Goku and Gohan's trials, which I explained above. If people somehow are still not convinced with that, I suggest skipping through the Inconsistencies section, which is right below.

What do you mean it has no reason? Its purpose is to literally tell us they are on different dimensions entirely, it is very specific that the narrator is literally talking about separated by time and space, as in different dimensions, goku is literally on another plane of reality, you are just saying stuff to suit YOUR narrative and how you choose to see it except for accepting it for what it really is, especially when we have multiple statements of separation of space and time. The narrator is obviously making it clear that they are in two very different places of reality entirely and they have to both endure harsh trials without each other, you saying it has no reason to is just your narrative. Also why would space and time be referred to separately? When the narrator could have just said something else, like how the are just in a different place? The show went out of its way to be super specific and tell us the afterlife and world of the living are separated by time and space, literally. These aren't convincing arguments.

Inconsistencies​

Physical Distance​

The realms within the Macrocosm are clearly noted to be separeted physically (a.k.a by standard three-dimensional space) from each other. I'll put the quotes in order:



The reason why the Other World (Afterlife) is said to be beyond the universe is because its stands literally above it:



Because both are in the same (3D) space, separated only by a wall with stamps:

This doesn't mean anything, two 4d spaces can still be on top of each other, what does this prove?

Additional evidence, which is even more clear:



So we can have in mind that the realms of the Macrocosm share the same space and the only limits/borders between them are literally spatially based (their position in space, like the Afterlife being above the universe), with some of those limits being even poorly defined. Indeed, nothing even close to be a uncountable infinity gap, which is the distance between two 4D space-time continuums.

Your arguments fall apart when you realize that being above, below, or beside something doesn't prove different spacetimes. And this has been proven wrong already since we know theres the existence of spatialtemporal barriers that separate the realms, so this argument is invalid.

Teleportation Technique​

The Instant Transmission technique is based on feeling the ki and moving to where it is. As seen and stated, this ability depends on how far the user can feel:



We know that this technique has been shown several times to travel from earth to the Afterlife. Goku can sense ki from the earth, but even so, he was unable to sense Gohan's ki while being on Beerus's planet, which is located within the Mortal Universe. What that means is that the distance between the Afterlife and the Living World is finite, as Goku is capable of reaching the Afterlife with IT by sensing ki from the earth, but it's unable to do so in Beerus' planet, meaning the distance between the latter and the Afterlife is greater than the distance between the Afterlife and our planet earth, despite Beerus' planet still being on the Mortal Universe.

Furthermore, Shin can't travel through space-time without the Time Ring, but he can use the TP technique to go from the Kaioshin Realm to earth:

What are you talking about? He did sense gohan's ki, not only that but the show, the dub of all things contradicted you, goku said it was to faint to sense, and once he powered up, the ki signature got stronger so he could teleport. The distance between realms is unquantifiable which is why we have stomp matches in tier 2 btw. And this proves nothing for distance at all, he has sensed ki from the afterlife and from beerus planet, so no this proves nothing and you contradicted yourself lmao. And shin not being able to travel through spacetime without the time ring is flat out wrong. He needs the time ring to travel to different timelines and time periods, he can travel through spacetime just fine, because he was able to travel from the afterlife to the living world.

Time Axis​

All the realms within the Macrocosm share the same temporal axis (some of them have variations as we have seen above, but it's fundamentally the same axis of time in the timeline), as proven by Dragon Ball Super:

This proves nothing that the macrocosms share the same temporal axis, them sharing the same timeline does not equal being the same spacetime, as i already discussed that you can have a spacetime inside of a bigger spacetime.

In this scene, Goku is directly addressing to Zamasu the fact that when the latter traveled through time, he could kill all the Gods of Destruction by killing their Supreme Kais, which means that a time travel, idependently to the plane where you realize it, simultaneasly affect the temporal axis of all the given structures of the Macrocosm, which includes the Kaioshin Realm where the Supreme Kais live. It's directly showed that the 12 Universes have their own version of the Macrocosm plus the Kaioshin Realm, so Zamasu being able to kill all of them basing off a single time travel means that all given structures in the Macrocosm obey to the same space-time continuum, including the Kaioshin Realm. In equivalence, one space-time continuum.

Conclusions​

The realms are spatially separated by a finite distance within a singular four dimensional continuum that covers the entire Macrocosm. That's it.

Why Not Low 2-C?​

With that said, the Macrocosm is not 2-C, and neither is High 3-A. We have options of it being either 3-A or Low 2-C. By the title of this CRT, it's very clear in which one I belive.

Why not Low 2-C then? It's because Low 2-C only goes to the entirety of the space-time continuum. As seen above, the space-time continuum encompasses the Macrocosm, not the other way around; hence, it's Tier 3 only, as any Tier 2 structure in Dragon Ball would go to the Timelines themselves, or simply the entire scope of the universe regarding its dimensions (three spatial and one temporal). Arguing that the Macrocosm itself is Low 2-C is flawed because it would be the equivalent of saying something like:

What? Universe 7 is the macrocosm, it is everything encompassed within that spacetime continuum, it would not be tier 3 because it is already proven that the entirety of spacetime already exist beyond all the matter than holds it.

Obviously, that's not how it works. Destroying the Macrocosm is 3-A, while destroying the Macrocosm plus the four dimensional continuum in which it resides is Low 2-C.

The "2-B" Cosmology​

As I said in the beginning, this was a note in the blog were I mainly contested the arguments for 2-C Macrocosm, so I decided to put it here also. The DB cosmology is argued to be 2-B due to two scans.

Trunks' Statement​

The first one is Trunks' statement about each action creating a new timeline, which people associate with the many-worlds interpretation. Despite being something clearly contradictory with Dragon Ball Super (we'll see that soon), this is actually a mistranslation from the Kanzenban edition of the original Dragon Ball manga. The VIZ translation states this:



And here's the Japanese one:



Essentially, neither of them is saying that each action creates branching timelines or anything like that, but rather that each action in the past can create different futures/timelines. That's the very reason why there's only 6 Time Rings in Super; the sixth one was created because Beerus killed Zamasu in the past and that lead to a different timeline where Zamasu no longer existed. If any action creates branching timelines, there wouldn't be only 6 Time Rings. Speaking of that ...

See luffys thread on why DB follows many worlds interpretation, there are the gray time rings which are the possible timelines that have already existed, and then the time rings in the box that are created every time somebody time travels, that is why parallel worlds are created.

Gowasu's Boxes​

People would try to cover the above mentioned by saying there's much more than just six time rings, as they're only a fraction of the total amount of "timelines" in many other boxes. This argument is even worse than the previous one.

For starters, it was never said that those boxes also have time rings in it. The fact that one box has doesn't necessarily mean that the others have too, especially considering that Gowasu himself states that it was strictly forbidden to travel to the past, since that would create another timeline:

Doesn't matter if it wasn't specifically said, we narrowed it down and came to the conclusion that it can heavily be implied that they are separate time rings.

 

[Kroneii1]

Thay seems to be kazenshu only thing, aka fan site

indeed, it seems to be written by herms Idk.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

Who is herms, is something like Official translator?

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

He's not an official one, just widely considered as one of the more reliable ones in the online DB community, but still just another fan nonetheless.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

He's not an official one, just widely considered as one of the more reliable ones in the online DB community, but still just another fan nonetheless.

Ok

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

He's not an official one, just widely considered as one of the more reliable ones in the online DB community, but still just another fan nonetheless.

yeah, it's not a scan, it's a fan paragraph. I would delete the message, to unclutter the thread.

 

[Aachintya31]

Hard Disagree, FRA.

Don't be so hard.

 

[Reiner04]

Don't be so hard.

 

[K_o_Karlyn]

Hard disagree. Every db supporter have demolished the op.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

What do you mean it has no reason? Its purpose is to literally tell us they are on different dimensions entirely, it is very specific that the narrator is literally talking about separated by time and space, as in different dimensions, goku is literally on another plane of reality, you are just saying stuff to suit YOUR narrative and how you choose to see it except for accepting it for what it really is, especially when we have multiple statements of separation of space and time. The narrator is obviously making it clear that they are in two very different places of reality entirely and they have to both endure harsh trials without each other, you saying it has no reason to is just your narrative. Also why would space and time be referred to separately? When the narrator could have just said something else, like how the are just in a different place? The show went out of its way to be super specific and tell us the afterlife and world of the living are separated by time and space, literally. These aren't convincing arguments.

Yeah like, the thing with this whole argument is that they're asserting that this very hyper-specific statement with physics terminology is being made for this flowery purpose.

Who ever uses the word "spacetime" to say something poetic? like that makes no sense, whatsoever. No one does this.

I feel like you'd need way more evidence (like someone saying "we exist within the same 3d space as the afterlife and kaioshin realm") to say it's a hyperbolic statement here, because both sides (literal vs hyperbolic) CLEARLY do not hold equal weight here.

 

[KLOL506]

Count me as disagreeing with OP. Guac and SSJGemini summed it up perfectly.

 

[TiltedFN]

Yeah like, the thing with this whole argument is that they're asserting that this very hyper-specific statement with physics terminology is being made for this flowery purpose.

Who ever uses the word "spacetime" to say something poetic? like that makes no sense, whatsoever. No one does this.

literally, we have been over this time and time again, it just keeps being brought up

 

[K_o_Karlyn]

Count me as disagreeing with OP. Guac and SSJGemini summed it up perfectly.

Fr fr. Like deadass reject nd close this thread omg

 

[Kroneii1]

Be respectful guys.

 

[KLOL506]

There are two definitions: one explaining a 4D continuum (the topic of this thread) and other explaining space and time as separate elements (i.e not a continuum). The one the narrator uses is obviously both elements separately. Not only the very sub makes it clear that the quote is "Separated by time and space" instead of "Separated by spacetime", but there's also the fact that narration has no reason to talk about a 4D continuum in the scene; in turn, it has reasons to talk about both elements as a parallel to Goku and Gohan's trials, which I explained above. If people somehow are still not convinced with that, I suggest skipping through the Inconsistencies section, which is right below.

This is where I deal the death blow:

NO, you do not need "space-time continuum" stated specifically to qualify for Tier 2. Blatant mentions of "separate space and time" or similar, or mentions of "separate pasts, presents and futures" along side proof of spatial separation where physical travel is more or less impossible is more than enough to qualify for Tier 2 as per our standards.

This is the one single reason where I have to disagree with your entire CRT.

 

[K_o_Karlyn]

Be respectful guys.

Everybody else has. I'm just keeping it a buck fr lbvs. I'll stop tho. Cus guac, godofdice,ssjgemini debunked nd smashed this ish harder than hulk being mad at toaa.

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

Everybody else has. I'm just keeping it a buck fr lbvs. I'll stop tho. Cus guac, godofdice,ssjgemini debunked nd smashed this ish harder than hulk being mad at toaa.

I have no idea what this means but let's keep it civil.

 

[Planck69]

I knew y'all wouldn't disappoint me. Yeah, the arguments sum up my thoughts well. Full disagree based on that reasoning.

 

[omegabronic]

Remember when i said to be polite guys? That attitude helps not, tone it down please, let us wait for the op to give his response

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

So we can have in mind that the realms of the Macrocosm share the same space and the only limits/borders between them are literally spatially based (their position in space, like the Afterlife being above the universe), with some of those limits being even poorly defined. Indeed, nothing even close to be a uncountable infinity gap, which is the distance between two 4D space-time continuums.

Forgot to respond to this, there doesn't need to be an uncountably infinite distance between 2 spacetime continuums? They can be aligned in a 4th axis of space, and have a finite distance bewtween them.

If this was the case, then they'd be part of the same space, and just a really big 3 dimensional one of equivalent size to a 3d object. This would make sense considering they're inaccessible via normal movement, except for special methods of travel and teleportation.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Introduction​

One of the most controversial Fictional Discussion topics in recent years is the question that Son Goku and other Dragon Ball characters are either Universe busters (be it 3-A, High 3-A or Low 2-C) or Multiverse busters (be it 2-C, in this case). There are several arguments for each side, and the most prominent when talking about Low Multiversal levels of power is the idea of the Macrocosm (a.k.a the Universe 7 and others) being a small multiverse (i.e small set of space-time continuums). That leads to major arguments involving that all Universal feats in Toei/Super affecting the entire structure of the Universe should be considered 2-C feats, as we can see below:



In this Content Revision Thread, however, I will explain my point of view on why the above reasoning is wrong, countering most of the arguments used by people and explaining the inconsistencies presented in the series about the idea of the Macrocosm being a 2-C structure. I'll use as a reference the blog highlighted above in bold and underline, and also other arguments that I've encountered that supposedly support this idea. Also, in the last section of the aforementioned blog, there's a note explaining that the full cosmology of Dragon Ball is 2-B, which I also disagree with and which I'll also explain why I consider it totally wrong. Without further ado, let's begin.

Dimensional/Space-Time Walls/Barriers​

The first argument is based on the idea that the realms contained within the Macrocosm are separated by dimensional walls, something that can also be expressed in the fact that they are separated by space-time (dimensional) barriers. In equivalence, separated by space-time. This argument is mostly used explaining the mechanic of Super Buu/Buuhan's feat and it's also used to proportionally scale the realms of the Macrocosm as having their individual space-time continuums.

What is wrong here is that being separated by dimensional walls is nowhere near close to prove that something automatically has a different space-time continuum. Most fictional feats that start in the Low 2-C ratings depends heavily on correctly interpretating Einstein's Theory of Relativity, and when we follow its postulates correctly, we find out that a singular space-time continuum can be separated by "walls" or "barriers" without needing another space-time continuum. Let's see:

Source #1:


Source #2:


Essentially, the idea of General Relativity refers that the "fabric" of the space-time continuum can curve upon itself due to the phenomenon of gravity. The more mass a object has, the deeper the curve. This explains why black holes can create distortions in the fabric of space-time, because their mass is high enough to do it, despite obviously not being Low 2-C phenomenons or whatsoever:



Basically, having a space-time (dimensional) boundary/limit/wall/barrier does not prove a different continuum, but rather a different state in the fabric of space-time due to the massive quantities of mass in certain regions. Indeed, that's the reason why Buuhan breaking through the dimensional walls would lead alternate dimensions to crash onto the Living World, because the wall is a boundary to their mass and the upper limit to not crash down. In short, any standard mention asserting a boundary in space-time can't be used to prove a 2-C structure, as it still falls under the same singular space-time continuum, which is precisely why 3D phenomenons/objects can distort space-time in the first place.

Room of Spirit and Time & Sugoroku Space​

I'm not entirely sure if this wiki uses the RoSaT as a supporting evidence for 2-C Macrocosm, but regardless, I'll address it as well. The RoSaT is an another dimension outside the Universe 7 where the flow of time is different. As far as I know, having a "different flow of time" is not enough in the standards of this wiki to be considered another space-time continuum (which is true), so I'll skip explaining that. The interesting part comes from the Chozenshu 4, in The World of Dragon Ball section:



People get from this quote the idea that both RoSaT and Sugoroku Space are different space-time continuums, because they "lack" a "concept" of time and space. People also get from it the idea that while the RoSaT is stated to exist outside the Universe 7, it can be applied to the general structure of the Macrocosm as it exists as a Subspace within it.

Regardless of it existing within the Macrocosm or not, the first part is wrong. "Lacking a concept of time and space" is a non-literal speech of the guide to emphasize the fact that the RoSaT lacks a conventional flow of time, as we can see in the exact same section of the Chozenshu 4:



Not only that, but this same guide explains that those Subspaces are Earth-sized, as we can see in another passage of the RoSaT (which is coherent from the manga were Goku says it is as big as the Earth, anyway):



What is important with that information is that "earth-sized space-time continuums" are not a thing, or at least, not something that guarantees a Low 2-C size, basing off the aforementioned Theory of Relativity, which asserts that a 4D Space-Time Continuum is only possible in universal models, something that the Tiering System perfectly recognizes:



With that said, the RoSaT definitely is irrelevant here, and so is the Sugoroku Space if we folow the above analogy of the subspaces (what the Sugoroku Space is along with the RoSaT) being earth-sized. However, to not make this look unfair, let's address the Sugoroku Space separately:

The Sugoroku Space is argued to be a different space-time continuum by having the description of being an area between dimensions (space and time). That, as you people can tell, falls under the same argument of the Dimensional/Space-Time Walls/Barriers, literally. Let's take for example a real life idea about the phenomenon called Wormhole:



Basically, a wormhole acts as a structure that can connect different points/locations/areas of the same space-time continuum, for example, other regions of the universe (what the Sugoroku Space is). If we follow the definition we have of the Sugoroku Space, which is a world where people are sent when they are sucked into a wormhole or otherwise slip between dimensions, it's very clear cut that said space is only a subset region between two points of space and time of the universe, and not a full independent 4D continuum. While in some sci-fi verses an wormhole can connect to parallel universes (or timelines), there's no evidence for that in Dragon Ball and, as such, we have to use the standard definition of a wormhole, which doesn't prove the existence of more than one space-time continuum.

Afterlife​

Perhaps the most tricky of all. The Afterlife is argued to be a separate space-time continuum because of the narration at the end of episode 8 from Dragon Ball Z:



Firstly, this will be the only thing that I'll respond in this section. Other mentions like the Afterlife supposedly having no time (more exactly, a different flow of time) or it being impossible to travel to it by normal means are gonna be ignored, since those things are irrelevant to argue about a different space-time continuum (especially because they refer to the astral nature of the place, which is why it's not accessible normally); at best, they can be used as supporting evidence, and not concrete evidence. With that said, while the quote seems straightforward, a little deep context is not mentioned:

• Space: The reason why they're on a separate space is because Goku and Gohan are essentially in different zones of the Macrocosm. Gohan in the Living World and Goku in the Afterlife.
• Time: The reason why they're on separate times is because both Goku and Gohan need to endure the harsh trials that awaits both of them; with Gohan, the sixth months of time training with Piccolo, and with Goku the time he passed on the Afterlife crossing the Snake Way and training with Kaiosama.

Essentially, the narrator is not talking about (or insinuating) the Afterlife being a space-time continuum, but rather the situation both Goku and Gohan are, making a parallel as they are in different places and times. People would say that the narrator is indeed talking about a 4D Space-Time Continuum for the Afterlife, because he mentions Jikū, which relates to four dimensional continuum. While that is true, this is not the only definition of Jikū:



There are two definitions: one explaining a 4D continuum (the topic of this thread) and other explaining space and time as separate elements (i.e not a continuum). The one the narrator uses is obviously both elements separately. Not only the very sub makes it clear that the quote is "Separated by time and space" instead of "Separated by spacetime", but there's also the fact that narration has no reason to talk about a 4D continuum in the scene; in turn, it has reasons to talk about both elements as a parallel to Goku and Gohan's trials, which I explained above. If people somehow are still not convinced with that, I suggest skipping through the Inconsistencies section, which is right below.

Inconsistencies​

Physical Distance​

The realms within the Macrocosm are clearly noted to be separeted physically (a.k.a by standard three-dimensional space) from each other. I'll put the quotes in order:



The reason why the Other World (Afterlife) is said to be beyond the universe is because its stands literally above it:



Because both are in the same (3D) space, separated only by a wall with stamps:



Additional evidence, which is even more clear:



So we can have in mind that the realms of the Macrocosm share the same space and the only limits/borders between them are literally spatially based (their position in space, like the Afterlife being above the universe), with some of those limits being even poorly defined. Indeed, nothing even close to be a uncountable infinity gap, which is the distance between two 4D space-time continuums.

Teleportation Technique​

The Instant Transmission technique is based on feeling the ki and moving to where it is. As seen and stated, this ability depends on how far the user can feel:



We know that this technique has been shown several times to travel from earth to the Afterlife. Goku can sense ki from the earth, but even so, he was unable to sense Gohan's ki while being on Beerus's planet, which is located within the Mortal Universe. What that means is that the distance between the Afterlife and the Living World is finite, as Goku is capable of reaching the Afterlife with IT by sensing ki from the earth, but it's unable to do so in Beerus' planet, meaning the distance between the latter and the Afterlife is greater than the distance between the Afterlife and our planet earth, despite Beerus' planet still being on the Mortal Universe.

Furthermore, Shin can't travel through space-time without the Time Ring, but he can use the TP technique to go from the Kaioshin Realm to earth:

Time Axis​

All the realms within the Macrocosm share the same temporal axis (some of them have variations as we have seen above, but it's fundamentally the same axis of time in the timeline), as proven by Dragon Ball Super:



In this scene, Goku is directly addressing to Zamasu the fact that when the latter traveled through time, he could kill all the Gods of Destruction by killing their Supreme Kais, which means that a time travel, idependently to the plane where you realize it, simultaneasly affect the temporal axis of all the given structures of the Macrocosm, which includes the Kaioshin Realm where the Supreme Kais live. It's directly showed that the 12 Universes have their own version of the Macrocosm plus the Kaioshin Realm, so Zamasu being able to kill all of them basing off a single time travel means that all given structures in the Macrocosm obey to the same space-time continuum, including the Kaioshin Realm. In equivalence, one space-time continuum.

Conclusions​

The realms are spatially separated by a finite distance within a singular four dimensional continuum that covers the entire Macrocosm. That's it.

Why Not Low 2-C?​

With that said, the Macrocosm is not 2-C, and neither is High 3-A. We have options of it being either 3-A or Low 2-C. By the title of this CRT, it's very clear in which one I belive.

Why not Low 2-C then? It's because Low 2-C only goes to the entirety of the space-time continuum. As seen above, the space-time continuum encompasses the Macrocosm, not the other way around; hence, it's Tier 3 only, as any Tier 2 structure in Dragon Ball would go to the Timelines themselves, or simply the entire scope of the universe regarding its dimensions (three spatial and one temporal). Arguing that the Macrocosm itself is Low 2-C is flawed because it would be the equivalent of saying something like:



Obviously, that's not how it works. Destroying the Macrocosm is 3-A, while destroying the Macrocosm plus the four dimensional continuum in which it resides is Low 2-C.

The "2-B" Cosmology​

As I said in the beginning, this was a note in the blog were I mainly contested the arguments for 2-C Macrocosm, so I decided to put it here also. The DB cosmology is argued to be 2-B due to two scans.

Trunks' Statement​

The first one is Trunks' statement about each action creating a new timeline, which people associate with the many-worlds interpretation. Despite being something clearly contradictory with Dragon Ball Super (we'll see that soon), this is actually a mistranslation from the Kanzenban edition of the original Dragon Ball manga. The VIZ translation states this:



And here's the Japanese one:



Essentially, neither of them is saying that each action creates branching timelines or anything like that, but rather that each action in the past can create different futures/timelines. That's the very reason why there's only 6 Time Rings in Super; the sixth one was created because Beerus killed Zamasu in the past and that lead to a different timeline where Zamasu no longer existed. If any action creates branching timelines, there wouldn't be only 6 Time Rings. Speaking of that ...

Gowasu's Boxes​

People would try to cover the above mentioned by saying there's much more than just six time rings, as they're only a fraction of the total amount of "timelines" in many other boxes. This argument is even worse than the previous one.

For starters, it was never said that those boxes also have time rings in it. The fact that one box has doesn't necessarily mean that the others have too, especially considering that Gowasu himself states that it was strictly forbidden to travel to the past, since that would create another timeline:



It would be pretty much nonsensical that timelines were being created constantly if it is forbidden to do so. In fact, Gowasu also indirectly states that those boxes are not filled with Time Rings:



Basically, Gowasu asserts that the time rings are for the new parallel worlds that emerged from changing the past. In the same scan above, he literally gets surprised by the existence of an fourth time ring, saying that its number increased since he last cheked. This obviously means that there are not "countless timelines" in those boxes, since the creation of said timelines not only is restricted, but it's also showed to be only a very few of them, and Gowasu, who is responsable to verify said timelines, quite literally gets surprised by the amount of only four of them (because it's forbidden to create new ones). Nothing more to say here.

Conclusions​

Dragon Ball only has a 2-C cosmology and its Macrocosms are 3-A, above the baseline though. For now, nearly all the profiles that have a 2-C key should be changed either with 3-A or Low 2-C.

This is a proper and undefiable debunk! That's what I like to see, the fact that time travel effects ripples across the entire "Multiverse" of Dragon Ball has always been something that made disagree with these 2-C ratings!

I wholeheartedly agree!

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

This is a proper and undefiable debunk! That's what I like to see, the fact that time travel effects ripples across the entire "Multiverse" of Dragon Ball has always been something that made disagree with these 2-C ratings!

This isn't actually a debunk, because they can all be a part of a 2-C structure, which gets affected via time travel. Examples include hypertime in DC Comics. This point has been sufficiently refuted.

Also as more proof it's not "undefiable," a lot of people have disagreed with it and given valid rebuttals.

Finally, regardless of the 2-C macrocosm stuff, each timeline contains separate dimensions, like the ROSAT. This means that even if you take the uber-conservative scaling route, you'd still end up with 'time ripples' affecting multiple dimensions / space-times. Even if the ROSAT isn't a low 2-C one, via not being universe sized, it'd still matter for this specific point.

 

[TiltedFN]

This isn't actually a debunk, because they can all be a part of a 2-C structure, which gets affected via time travel. Examples include hypertime in DC Comics. This point has been sufficiently refuted.

Exactly, they think spacetimes can't be under a bigger timeline

 

[Aachintya31]

Let's call Antvasima.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Chances are he's too busy

 

[PrinceofPein]

along side proof of spatial separation where physical travel is more or less impossible is more than enough to qualify for Tier 2 as per our standards.

physical travel is possible in DB between the universes

 

[CloverDragon03]

physical travel is possible in DB between the universes

We only see travel between universes via the Angels, which indicates its a special ability for them, rather than actual physical travel

There are also things like the Cosmic Cube, which even Hit was after for its universe-traveling capabilities. This wouldn't be an issue if you could physically travel between universes, since Hit for instance can survive in a vacuum

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

physical travel is possible in DB between the universes

Only via special movement. It's specifically impossible unless you have special teleportation or whis' staff.



The universes aren't just like "really far away in a spaceship," which is the implication of this CRT. There isn't like a glass window thing separating the dimensions that is just so durable no one can cross it. They are literally unreachable between each other via what we know in the series and what's stated in the Daizenshuu.

Let's steelman the 3-A arguments that are being presented, whis' teleportation still isn't regular movement, because according to OP:

Because both are in the same (3D) space, separated only by a wall with stamps:

it would still be special movement.

 

[MrHazama]

If I had a quarter for every time there is a "CRT" about Dragon Ball's cosmology, I be a rich man right now

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Throwing in theory's isn't going to get you far here-

Again, you're just relying on theories-

Scientific theories are just the written form of factual or most-likely factual verifiable events. They have nearly the same weight as a fact.

Relativity is verifiable.
Theory of Gravity is a theory, and it has more importance than the fact of gravity, which is a different thing.

Fact: Gravity exists (If I throw something, it falls)
Theory: Explains why it happens

A Scientific Theory isn't "just a theory", it's a written explanation of the verifiable reality, and if accepted by the scientific community, it has the same value as a fact.

All the spacetimes are literally just under a bigger spacetime (the timeline) its the same concept for ROSAT, it being contained within a bigger spacetime does not disprove 2-C.

If they were encompassed in a singular Universe, the effects of time-travel on a single minor space-time would not ripple to the entire multiverse. It having a bigger spacetime encompassing all of it doesn't refute that contradiction. Time Travel made on a smaller and independent space-time still would have no effect on the greater multiverse if your model was right.

A true multi-layered multiverse would function as such:

All 12 Universes have an all-encompassing temporal dimension.
Still, all of them are given their own temporal dimension.

Changes affecting their smaller and individual temporal dimension should not ripple through the larger, all-encompassing temporal dimension. Rather, it would just change the universe they are in.

The fact the smaller temporal dimensions do not affect the bigger ones are the only form of proving they are different in the first place.

Yet we know this isn't the case.

On this wiki, spacetimes are determined by having a different time axis

I read the entire wiki and tiering system.

This is just a lie. Spacetimes need to be separated by an extra-dimensional layer, a physical separation would not have any effect on the temporal dimension.

a spacetime being less than universal in size does not disprove being a spacetime

What is important with that information is that "earth-sized space-time continuums" are not a thing, or at least, not something that guarantees a Low 2-C size, basing off the aforementioned Theory of Relativity.

Um no, it is concrete evidence that its only accessible by dying, or teleportation there I.E (dimensional travel) which teleportation techniques have been shown to do.

Astral Plane requires dying to be accessible. This is not evidence it's a separate dimension.

It needs I.T because it's separated by a physical/magical wall given how it has markings on it, meaning it's likely made deliberately by whoever create these universes.

• What are you talking about? They are separated by "space and time" meaning goku and gohan are on completely different time axis and physical spaces entirely. 6 months in the afterlife is still 6 months on earth, just because time flows at the same rate, doesn't mean they are on the same time axis entirely.

It doesn't, and OP was not arguing that it does. Re-read their point.

This doesn't mean anything, two 4d spaces can still be on top of each other, what does this prove?

They fundamentally cannot.

When we transcend the 3D dimensional, physical axis such as "above" and "under" doesn't make any sense.

What are you talking about? He did sense gohan's ki, not only that but the show, the dub of all things contradicted you-

Dub ain't canon chief.

The distance between realms is unquantifiable which is why we have stomp matches in tier 2 btw.

Therefore the I.T being limited is a contradiction?....

And shin not being able to travel through spacetime without the time ring is flat out wrong. He needs the time ring to travel to different timelines and time periods, he can travel through spacetime just fine, because he was able to travel from the afterlife to the living world.

The afterlife can't be on the same spacetime, because Shin can travel to different timespaces like the afterlife?
Circular.

In this debate, the afterlife being a separate spacetime is a topic of discussion, not a fact. You just contradicted yourself.

"He can travel through space-time, but needs a time ring to be able to travel to different timelines (A.K.A Space-times) and time periods."

This proves nothing that the macrocosms share the same temporal axis, them sharing the same timeline does not equal being the same spacetime, as i already discussed that you can have a spacetime inside of a bigger spacetime.

And I already refuted it, go on.

What? Universe 7 is the macrocosm, it is everything encompassed within that spacetime continuum, it would not be tier 3 because it is already proven that the entirety of spacetime already exist beyond all the matter than holds it.

The Universe 7 is encompassed on the space-time, not the other way around.

See luffys thread on why DB follows many worlds interpretation, there are the gray time rings which are the possible timelines that have already existed, and then the time rings in the box that are created every time somebody time travels, that is why parallel worlds are created.

Luffy never provided any evidence on these alternate gray time rings existing, and relied only on Trunks' statement.

 

[PrinceofPein]

We only see travel between universes via the Angels, which indicates its a special ability for them, rather than actual physical travel

There are also things like the Cosmic Cube, which even Hit was after for its universe-traveling capabilities. This wouldn't be an issue if you could physically travel between universes, since Hit for instance can survive in a vacuum

I am talking more about the The super balls also travelled between universes, which was the basis for immeasurable speed, since it also traveled into the past of other universes.

@Guacamolefletcher a barrier is not a basis for them being separate space-time

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

Can we not use terminology like 'undefiable debunk' because the CRT hasn't been accepted yet, so 2C isnt debunked yet. And DB supporters, keep it civil.

Also no 'that's what I like to see' either, there is no need for personal bias to be a factor here.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I am talking more about the The super balls also travelled between universes, which was the basis for immeasurable speed, since it also traveled into the past of other universes.

Wouldn't that say more about the Super Dragon Balls than anything? Nothing scales to them anyway so what's the point here?

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

This isn't actually a debunk, because they can all be a part of a 2-C structure, which gets affected via time travel. Examples include hypertime in DC Comics.

This example does not apply, hypertime in DC Comics have a load of statements and indications that it works in a non-linear or unconventional way when using regular logic. DB has none of that. Not an ounce of a statement that we have a big wide-spread space-time continuum and smaller ones.

A 2-C structure, with each Universe having individual space-times, would not affect the other, individual space-times, much less the wide-spread multiverse, including all the deities that live outside all these universes. Unless contradicted by statements that directly prove that it works like that because fiction.

We currently have no evidence that says the Hyperbolic Time Chamber dimension has been affected by timelines.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Wouldn't that say more about the Super Dragon Balls than anything? Nothing scales to them anyway so what's the point here?

The point is the balls travelled physically across the universes, and that is something that makes the notion of separate space-times untrue, since physical travel of any kind should not be possible

 

[CloverDragon03]

The point is the balls travelled physically across the universes, and that is something that makes the notion of separate space-times untrue, since physical travel of any kind should not be possible

That says more about the Super Dragon Balls' speed than it does about the universes' separation. One "anti-feat" that can be easily explained as a feat for the Super Dragon Balls is nowhere near a debunk

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

Scientific theories are just the written form of factual or most-likely factual verifiable events. They have nearly the same weight as a fact.

Relativity is verifiable.
Theory of Gravity is a theory, and it has more importance than the fact of gravity, which is a different thing.

Fact: Gravity exists (If I throw something, it falls)
Theory: Explains why it happens

A Scientific Theory isn't "just a theory", it's a written explanation of the verifiable reality, and if accepted by the scientific community, it has the same value as a fact.

Ok, well the theory had nothing to do with anything, and didn't debunk anything.

If they were encompassed in a singular Universe, the effects of time-travel on a single minor space-time would not ripple to the entire multiverse. It having a bigger spacetime encompassing all of it doesn't refute that contradiction. Time Travel made on a smaller and independent space-time still would have no effect on the greater multiverse if your model was right.

A true multi-layered multiverse would function as such:

All 12 Universes have an all-encompassing temporal dimension.
Still, all of them are given their own temporal dimension.

Changes affecting their smaller and individual temporal dimension should not ripple through the larger, all-encompassing temporal dimension. Rather, it would just change the universe they are in.

The fact the smaller temporal dimensions do not affect the bigger ones are the only form of proving they are different in the first place.

Yet we know this isn't the case.

Not really, it's literally just a trait they can have. You're asserting this based on nothing, ignoring counter-examples.

read the entire wiki and tiering system.

This is just a lie. Spacetimes need to be separated by an extra-dimensional layer, a physical separation would not have any effect on the temporal dimension.

this wasn't the main point for the 2-C macrocosm, so not a valid debunk.

Astral Plane requires dying to be accessible. This is not evidence it's a separate dimension.

It needs I.T because it's separated by a physical/magical wall given how it has markings on it, meaning it's likely made deliberately by whoever create these universes.

Physical or magical wall, yet the limits are poorly defined, so which is it? according to the op both, when they're contradictory. Also, we've never seen such an "edge" that literally blocks people off.

"He can travel through space-time, but needs a time ring to be able to travel to different timelines (A.K.A Space-times) and time periods."

Again, this isn't a real contradiction. Nothing suggests he can only travel to different spacetimes only with a time ring.

The Universe 7 is encompassed on the space-time, not the other way around.

contradicted by the statements!

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

I am talking more about the The super balls also travelled between universes, which was the basis for immeasurable speed, since it also traveled into the past of other universes.

@Guacamolefletcher a barrier is not a basis for them being separate space-time

What? Complete straw man of all our arguments.

Also the super dragon balls aren't doing it through normal movement, as they're being moved by shenron. It's contradicting of 3-A too, since according to the CRT, there is a barrier separating them. Your own words too. This is a "problem" to yours too.