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Is The First Firmament Existing Before All Multiverses Should It Not Be Adimensional 1-A?
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Doubt about The First Firmament
- Thread starter The_Omnipotente
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Existing before the multiverse =/= being beyond infinite dimensions.
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I agree with you.(lets just wait till next chapter)
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But it also contains a space outside Time and a time outside space.(since he embodies nonexistences)Antvasima said:
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http://imgur.com/a/5uCp5 Outside of Eternity
http://imgur.com/a/bCHs0 Which is Nonexistences
http://imgur.com/a/2X8EV
Deadpool Stated this: It's big. The big nothing. A nothing of forever. A place God's hands have never touched. Outside of space. Outside of the universe.. outside of Eternity
http://imgur.com/a/W9xFK
http://imgur.com/a/JfDE0 When the first Firmament appears everything turned into space.
http://imgur.com/a/bCHs0 Which is Nonexistences
http://imgur.com/a/2X8EV
Deadpool Stated this: It's big. The big nothing. A nothing of forever. A place God's hands have never touched. Outside of space. Outside of the universe.. outside of Eternity
http://imgur.com/a/W9xFK
http://imgur.com/a/JfDE0 When the first Firmament appears everything turned into space.
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The First Firmament is heavily implied to not be just a multiverse. He embodies everything. It was shown that all of the multiverse and its beings are within a structure and he is outside it.
If he was just the embodiment of the First Multiverse, he wouldn't be vastly superior to everyone.
Look at this trio of pages:
One.
Two.
Three.
"And in the darkness outside... Something laughs. At the dead Celestials. At the corpse of Cosmic Justice. At life corrupted into death. It laughs. And it wills its helpers on."
"It's coming back. Taking everything back into it. Taking everything."
We are shown everything from the Ultimates on Earth, to the dead Celestials, the Tribunal, Galactus and Logos as being tiny cosmic spheres floating in an immense nothingness. The First Firmament was taking back everything that exists, that has been created, into itself.
And he will return everything into a primal state of oneness.
If he was just the embodiment of the First Multiverse, he wouldn't be vastly superior to everyone.
Look at this trio of pages:
One.
Two.
Three.
"And in the darkness outside... Something laughs. At the dead Celestials. At the corpse of Cosmic Justice. At life corrupted into death. It laughs. And it wills its helpers on."
"It's coming back. Taking everything back into it. Taking everything."
We are shown everything from the Ultimates on Earth, to the dead Celestials, the Tribunal, Galactus and Logos as being tiny cosmic spheres floating in an immense nothingness. The First Firmament was taking back everything that exists, that has been created, into itself.
And he will return everything into a primal state of oneness.
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Well, let's wait for more information before we exaggerate his tier. As I have mentioned previously, even if a character is infinity^infinity times more powerful than another High 1-B character, it still just means a higher degree of High 1-B. Being outside of Eternity does not mean that the First Firmament is not a multiverse himself.
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I agree we need to wait more.
But First Firmament isn't outside of Eternity, it's outside the Tribunal, the Beyonders, basically everything.
The current profile isn't very good. It's made with 1 issue with basis. I'd rather wait more.
But First Firmament isn't outside of Eternity, it's outside the Tribunal, the Beyonders, basically everything.
The current profile isn't very good. It's made with 1 issue with basis. I'd rather wait more.
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toaa's page says that marvel has realms/locations beyond all dimensional space, and the first firmament exists beyond that. shouldnt that be 1-A?
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Existing outside of Multi-Eternity is not proof of 1-A, and being a previous iteration of the multiverse does point towards High 1-B.
Again, let's wait for more information. It may be best to close this thread.
Again, let's wait for more information. It may be best to close this thread.
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http://***************.to/Comic/The-Ultimates-2/Issue-6?id=110699
so..., this is now, good feats to take TFF at 1-A or still High 1-B and wait for more feats?
so..., this is now, good feats to take TFF at 1-A or still High 1-B and wait for more feats?
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Guys. Let me read the issues first. My internet is barely returned.
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Btw writer stated that those where omniverse (omniverse < megaverse< multiverse< universe) He call it cosmo or reality
And the 2nd thing is the writer stated The first firmament gave Lord chaos and master order power to destroy Living tribunal.
And the 2nd thing is the writer stated The first firmament gave Lord chaos and master order power to destroy Living tribunal.
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Link?
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To the writer or chapter?
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Writer statements, yes.
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I have read the story. The First Firmament was the first cosmos, which the Celestials partially split into smaller universal pieces, a multiverse, which coalesced into the first iteration of Eternity.
As such, it is nearly identical in nature to Eternity himself, and should not have a 1-A rating.
As such, it is nearly identical in nature to Eternity himself, and should not have a 1-A rating.
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@Antvasima
Let me read it.
Let me read it.
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@Lucky
Lol, Beyondergod.
Anyway, I agree with Al Ewing. It is much more elegant to use words like "Cosmos", "Reality", "Creation" to refer to the entirety of everything, rather than to use random terms.
Also, Al Ewing just said that that's a reading of the text.
Okay, what issues do I need to read? Fantastic Four and The Ultimates?
Lol, Beyondergod.
Anyway, I agree with Al Ewing. It is much more elegant to use words like "Cosmos", "Reality", "Creation" to refer to the entirety of everything, rather than to use random terms.
Also, Al Ewing just said that that's a reading of the text.
Okay, what issues do I need to read? Fantastic Four and The Ultimates?
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Just the latest issue of the Ultimates for the First Firmament.
However, Multi-Eternity previously showed up in Jeph Loeb's Abraxas storyline in Fantastic Four, as well as J.M. DeMatteis' 2005 Defenders miniseries.
However, Multi-Eternity previously showed up in Jeph Loeb's Abraxas storyline in Fantastic Four, as well as J.M. DeMatteis' 2005 Defenders miniseries.
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There's also a 90s Dr.Strange storyline where Eternity's death was causing the end of the multiverse. And both 90s Quasar and Guardians of the Galaxy hinted at a multiversal Eternity.
It's not at all a new thing.
It's not at all a new thing.
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The First Firmament is apparently just the first Marvel universe, before it was split into a multiverse. Our High 1-B (rather than 2-A) rating is likely technically inaccurate for this particular story, but must be placed there anyway for the sake of consistency.
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Also the writer stated that he is the Omniverse(probably Infinite Multiverse or Infinite Megaverse)
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This is just arguing about semantics.Antvasima said:
This is no difference than the incredibly flawed argument to say that Tenchi Muyo or Demonbane are only 2-A, as their cosmology only includes a "Multiverse". this is completely ignoring that said multiverses have numerous higher dimensions.
Or to say that Cthulhu Mythos is unimpressive simply because Yog-Sothoth is the embodiment of a multiverse.
DC Vertigo's Lucifer explictly never uses the term "Multiverse" throughout the entirety of the comic's main 75 issue run, it instead refers to reality as "Universe", "Creation", "Cosmos", "Totality", etc. Some try to use this to claim that Lucifer Morningstar is only Universal+. Obviously that is not correct.
Yes, the First Firmament was the first Marvel Universe, but the term Universe is here used not because it is simply a singular space-time continuum like ours, but instead because the First Firmament was singular in its own existence. He was all that existed and he was one, thus he was a universe.
Universe comes from the Latin word "Universus". Universus = Unus + Versus. Unus = One, Versus = Past Participle of "To Turn". So, Universus means "All turned in one", "All things as a whole".
Using the term "Universe" to refer to a singular totality is perfectly acceptable, and much more elegant than to clutter the storyline with meaningless made up terms like Megaverse, Omniverse, Zettaverse, Hyperverse, Ultraverse, Xenoverse, etc.
I would appreciate if the debate could be centered around feats (I.e, the First Firmament being once absolutely all that existed, meaning that even the likes of the Living Tribunal and the Beyonders are extensions of his self) rather than to focus on words.
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By the way, saying that no Marvel Abstract but Oblivion is 1-A is no different than insisting that Yog-Sothoth is High 1-B because of the very common statement that the is "Coterminous with all space and time", and then simply ignoring all evidence for beings outside all space and time as being impossible because of that statement.
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Actually the Beyonders originate outside of the multiverse, as does Oblivion.
All that we know about the First Firmament is that the Celestials split much of it up into many individual universes, that coalesced into a multiverse in Eternity. Unless we get explicit statements about that it is entirely beyond the concept of dimensions of time and space, we can also only scale it from Eternity.
I am not willing to unreasonably boost the characters without very good reasons. My apologies, but that its final until we get more information.
All that we know about the First Firmament is that the Celestials split much of it up into many individual universes, that coalesced into a multiverse in Eternity. Unless we get explicit statements about that it is entirely beyond the concept of dimensions of time and space, we can also only scale it from Eternity.
I am not willing to unreasonably boost the characters without very good reasons. My apologies, but that its final until we get more information.
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Basically, The-One-Above-All is the only entity that can truly qualify as being all that exists in Marvel.
The First Firmament is just a similar situation to the Beyonder. It was all that exists from its own perspective, but there are certainly beings of even higher level that it is unable to perceive, any more than we can perceive higher-dimensional lifeforms.
The First Firmament is just a similar situation to the Beyonder. It was all that exists from its own perspective, but there are certainly beings of even higher level that it is unable to perceive, any more than we can perceive higher-dimensional lifeforms.
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When did I even bring up the OOA? You are being literal with my statement, I said the FF is everything because he is. All the comes from all the various multiverses derives exclusively from him. This is factual and stated.
"Unless we get explicit statements about that it is entirely beyond the concept of dimensions of time and space, we can also only scale it from Eternity."
So does this mean that The Ultimates 2 exists in a vacuum? You seen to very often push the idea that the only feats that count in each Marvel storyline are the ones from the storyline in question, because "inconsistencies". This is of course fallacious as you could say the same thing about any single installment of any long-form narrative, like books, video game franchises and TV Shows, both Live-Action and Animated. Inconsistencies exist in all of them, and authors typically expect you to have a familiarity with previous installments which is why all the details are not reiterated everytime.
"Unless we get explicit statements about that it is entirely beyond the concept of dimensions of time and space, we can also only scale it from Eternity."
So does this mean that The Ultimates 2 exists in a vacuum? You seen to very often push the idea that the only feats that count in each Marvel storyline are the ones from the storyline in question, because "inconsistencies". This is of course fallacious as you could say the same thing about any single installment of any long-form narrative, like books, video game franchises and TV Shows, both Live-Action and Animated. Inconsistencies exist in all of them, and authors typically expect you to have a familiarity with previous installments which is why all the details are not reiterated everytime.
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@Ant The writer clearly states thats it just the omniverse
https://twitter.com/beyondergod/status/857286751727083520
https://twitter.com/beyondergod/status/857286751727083520
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And there is no way that FF could be an multiverse.
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Also Al Ewing doesn't believe in Word of God, so why use his word as gospel for anything.
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I agree with Matt, here. We can't go on judging everything that happens in Marvel in a void. 1-A First Firmament seems perfectly fine to me.
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Again, canonically, everything in Marvel, including the First Firmament, comes from the OAA, and the only thing that we currently know canonically comes from the First Firmament is everything within the later regular Marvel multiverse, i.e. Eternity, who is an infinite-dimensional construct of time and space, in our most generous interpretation, but explicitly only treated as 2-A within this particular story.
Oblivion, and the Beyonders both originate outside of it, and we definitely cannot distort the fundamental scientific definition of the word multiverse to make it mean something that it does not. Even theoretical typer IV multiverses are still infinite-dimensional, not completely metaphysical.
Also, Al Ewing has very clearly stated and shown within his stories that he means a multiverse, not absolutely everything in fiction and reality combined... which is good, considering that he would be Suggsverse level delusional othervise.
Oblivion, and the Beyonders both originate outside of it, and we definitely cannot distort the fundamental scientific definition of the word multiverse to make it mean something that it does not. Even theoretical typer IV multiverses are still infinite-dimensional, not completely metaphysical.
Also, Al Ewing has very clearly stated and shown within his stories that he means a multiverse, not absolutely everything in fiction and reality combined... which is good, considering that he would be Suggsverse level delusional othervise.
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Anyway, I am extremely tired of these types of topics. We are definitely not going to upgrade the First Firmament to 1-A without explicit statements regarding its nature. My apologies, but that is final. End of discussion.
That said, this storyline will likely take at least a year more. There is plenty of time to wait and see.
That said, this storyline will likely take at least a year more. There is plenty of time to wait and see.
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I really don't understand why oblivion is the only 1-A character in marvel ( He is under the authority of LT it was clearly stated) There should be alot more character in the marvel verse who should be 1-A. Most people here agrees with this.
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