Doubt about The First Firmament

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Well, since they created infinite timelines by splitting the multiverse, I suppose that a 2-A rating might be appropriate.

Both baseline Eternity and the Top Dog Celestials should be 2-A. This is something most people on other forums seem to agree on.

 

[Graf_Thorsdottir]

wouldn't that completely throw out the idea of universal abstract out the window?

 

[AndrewBennet]

^^ It doesn't . Dormammu fought and imprisoned universal embodiment of Eternity inside dark dimension and Nightmare imprisoned Eternity by putting all the sentinel beings in the universe in to sleep .

There is also a hanbook which refers to Eternity as an embodiment of single universe in Dr strange storylines .

 

[Antvasima]

Well, it does technically not particularly makes sense with universal embodiments that are able to destroy infinite universes, but I suppose that we might have to end up with such ratings via power-scaling from the Celestials.

 

[Antvasima]

We end up with a massive mess of contradictions that way however. Dormammu would scale from Eternity, SHuman-Gorath would scale from Dormammu, and so onwards, and then we end up with every Marvel cosmic entity at either 2-A or High 1-B, even though most of them have never remotely been portrayed that way.

Marvel is likely our most unreliable franchise in terms of statistics ratings overall.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Byakushiki

Eternity is an Universal Abstract as, but that is simply his existence. We need to go by his feats, rather than his definition. Similarly, one could say that X or Y human character can't have great superhuman feats since they are "Just human".

Eternity has Multiversal feats. He contains numerous universes in his hand alone, and he created all of the Celestials by meditating as per one old storyline. And even if Eternity isn't the Creator of the Celestials, the Celestials are still part of Eternity since the entity is the "Embodiment of the Universe and everything in it".

Also, Eternity being simply Low 2-C is contradictory, since the Cosmic Cubes (The lowest bottom of the Universal Cosmic Hierarchy) are Low 2-C. And one Celestial alone is "Dozen orders of transfinity" above Cosmic Cubes.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, the plot point about the Celestials completely transcending cosmic cubes showed up in an extremely obscure story that has never been referenced anywhere afterwards, and has most likely been discarded.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Well, the plot point about the Celestials completely transcending cosmic cubes showed up in an extremely obscure story that has never been referenced anywhere afterwards, and has most likely been discarded.

But they do. The Cosmic Cubes are much weaker than any Celestial. Even Eternity's M-Bodies are much stronger than most Universal Cosmics. Also Eternity should logically scale from Cubes, Celestials, etc. Since they are part of him.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, they are inside of him, but then so is the Molecule Man. For some reason Marvel does not seem to let Eternity possess the power of all its components, as was demonstrated in the Infinity Gauntlet series.

As for the Celestials, they are stronger, yes, but not portrayed as anywhere near several orders of infinity stronger than the cubes.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Yes, I am aware. I'm not arguing for 1-B Celestials (That'd be ridiculous), specially since the orders of infinity described in the chapter would only make them 2-A (The infinity of even numbers compared to all natural numbers, for instance). I think 2-A for the strongest Celestials seems okay. I do think that the One Above All shouldn't be ranked yet, however. Specially since he is supposed to fight the Logos in the current storyline.

 

[Antvasima]

Was that the Celestial named "One Above All" that the Never Queen held in her hand? I thought that it was Ziran, but I may have misremembered.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@LuckyCharmingStar

Empty space is 11-C.

@Ant

It was Celestial TOAA. Those two look almost identical but have different colors.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. You are probably correct. She selected the leader of the Celestial host then.

The First Firmament story really should turn into Marvel's next event given its scale, but I read that they won't produce any for 18 months after "Secret Empire", due to fatigue from the readers.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Antvasima

Actually, they are planning on sorta resetting the status quo after Secret Empire, with a storyline called "Marvel Generations" to bring back the classic heroes like Captain America, Tony Stark and Thor.

The First Firmament storyline seems to be many years in the making, given that the Celestials creating the multiverse and the Celestial war was hinted at many years ago.

 

[Antvasima]

Nah, Al Ewing is just good at picking up different leftover plot points from other writers.

That said, it is a shame to relegate this ambitious a story to a single comicbook.

It certainly beats the "Republicans are evil Nazis! Resist with a bloody revolution! AntiFa 4ever!" event that they are currently producing... Then again, I may be reading too much into it.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

You probably are. And they are backing down severely from politics in comics. I have high hopes for Marvel Generations.

 

[LuckyCharmingStar]

FF did something similiar to this .

 

[LuckyCharmingStar]

@LuckyCharmingStar
Empty space is 11-C.

@Ant

It was Celestial TOAA. Those two look almost identical but have different colors.

Boundless*

 

[AndrewBennet]

If high 1B structure eternity is created from the fragment of first firament as shown in the 7th iteration of eternity . Then why is first firament not considered as 1A .

 

[Antvasima]

Because a fragment from a High 1-B structure is still High 1-B of the same dimensional order, and vice versa.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, since this thread seems to be concluded, perhaps we should close it, for real this time.

 

[AndrewBennet]

Does it mean Oblivion existed before firament ? He said to exist before Eternity

 

[Promestein]

"Creation itself, alongside all the entities that compose it inevitably return to the nothingness that he embodies, only to eventually be birthed anew in a neverending cycle"

This seems to imply that Oblivion's above the First Firmament

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. Oblivion is the void that all multiverses are born from and return to. I also think that he seems far above everybody else in Marvel, except for the One-Above-All/Above-All-Others.

 

[The_Omnipotente]

But in cosmic order not said which court alive> oblivion?

 

[AndrewBennet]

The writer said to me that in next issue he will detail more about first firmament and marvel cosmic structure . According to him everything in the marvel is a small essence of first firmament. So we have to wait for upcoming issue which would be the best out of all the ultimate issues according to him.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay then.

Btw: If the First Firmament is just trying to get back lost parts of himself, it is rather hard to see him as a bad guy here, despite being presented as an antagonist.

Also, the Molecule Man will likely have to get involved in order to stop him.

 

[Holyhotsauce]

The First Firmament seems to Outclass every other High 1-B Marvel character, so why not give him an "Atleast High 1-B" Rating? We see him literally try to eat Multi-Eternity. (this is pure speculation and should probably be ignored),

 

[Antvasima]

Even if he is an infinity raised to infinity number of times stronger than all High 1-B Marvel characters combined, he would still be an infinite-dimensional entity, and as such High 1-B.

 

[LuckyCharmingStar]

^ I dont think so. FF is the Omniverse in marvel which contain every realm, Multiverse and more remember Beyond realm? It had 1-A description too and he embodies it. Which probably he embodies nonexistences outside of Eternity, Oblivion realm and probably Toaa realm itself.

 

[Antvasima]

No, Al Ewing has explicitly clarified that the First Firmament is the same as Multi-Eternity, just older and stronger.

 

[LuckyCharmingStar]

That means that Beyond & Toaa realm exist outside the marvel omniverse.(fiction)

 

[Graf_Thorsdottir]

No. A franchise can have realms outside the multverse structure the story takes place in.

Outside an infinite higher dimensional structure =/= being completely beyond dimensional concepts

 

[LuckyCharmingStar]

Outside of eternity is Nonexistences.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I don't care what Al Ewing says, I care about the story.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, the story also says that the First Firmament is the same type of entity as Multi-Eternity, as the latter was created from FF's lost pieces.

 

[LuckyCharmingStar]

I do agree with Matt.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, again, Al Ewing is just confirming what we were already told within the story. The First Firmament is not the embodiment of absolutely everything, just the being that unwillingly created Eternity by losing part of its substance.

 

[LuckyCharmingStar]

He also stated that the FF is the omniverse (like omniverse<megaverse<multiverse<universe) He totally stated that.

 

[Antvasima]

He has explicitly stated that he uses the term omniverse to refer to the Marvel multiverse. If he used it to refer to all of reality and fiction combined, that would be delusional, which he definitely is not.