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Doubt about The First Firmament

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OAA -> First Firmament -> Virtually everything else, save for like, Oblivion

Oblivion existing beyond it does not mean it's not 1-A, it just means Oblivion exists outside of the multiverse, regardless of its size and scale. The First Firmament is just the source of everything below it. Yog-Sothoth encompasses everything and is the source of it all, being both the canvas and the painter, and we don't throw that away just because Azathoth exists.

Again, that's irrelevant. If Marvel had no continuity and every story existed in a vacuum, you'd be right, but it has a continuity. We can't throw away everything that's been established every time a new impressive feat rolls around. Doing so because of inconsistency only makes it worse, because we'll be making our Marvel pages just as inconsistent as Marvel instead of using our brains to come to a logical conclusion.
 
Well, the point is that Eternity is High 1-B according to our most extremely generous approximation, and it consists of a sizeable cut off part of the First Firmament's being.

The FF is larger, yes, but a larger being of the same dimensional level per definition. See it as if somebody chopped off your arm, and it mutated into being alive on its own.

The multiverse was created from its being, but to qualify for being a multiverse, it is a structure of space and time. To argue othervise would be an attempt to deprive words and definitions of their fundamental meanings just for the sake of unwarranted character boosts.
 
Just to clarify: I am not opposed to upgrading the First Firmament when we get more information, but for such a massive high tier, we need proof, not just hype, loose speculation, and the wish that it should be that great.
 
Anyway, I am going to close this thread. I would appreciate if everybody involved immediately and permanently drop the topic until we get more information in the coming months. Thank you.
 
First of all. You shouldn't be dictatorial with your opinion like that, and running away from discussion. You simply closed the thread because everyone disagreed with you. And you didn't let me reply.

Now I'll post my reply.
 
"Again, canonically, everything in Marvel, including the First Firmament, comes from the OAA, and the only thing that we currently know canonically comes from the First Firmament is everything within the later regular Marvel multiverse, i.e. Eternity, who is an infinite-dimensional construct of time and space, in our most generous interpretation, but explicitly only treated as 2-A within this particular story."

First of all. Not my point, nobody is taking about the OAA but you. Secondly, no again. Everything that exists in any multiverse comes from the FF. Thirdly, Eternity is not 2-A in this storyline, I've debunked this already, you just fixate on any lower-sounding explanation and forget any higher ones.

And even if Eternity was 2-A in this storyline, I have to ask: So what? Does this disprove everything else that makes it High 1-B? No. So why bring it up?

"Oblivion, and the Beyonders both originate outside of it, and we definitely cannot distort the fundamental scientific definition of the word multiverse to make it mean something that it does not. Even theoretical typer IV multiverses are still infinite-dimensional, not completely metaphysical."

Yes, and which is why both TLT, First Firmament and the Beyonders being 1-A makes sense. I and Lucky have already shown you numerous instances of characters weaker than them having 1-A definitions, but you just fixate on them not being because "The Living Tribunal is the multiverse". Again, this is no different than saying that Yog-Sothoth is High 1-B since he is the embodiment of the multiverse. You are just fixating on one explanation and ignoring everything else.

We've seen numerous Marvel characters be outside all space and time, we know that the outside of Eternity (Embodied by the Never Queen) is 1-A, in both Defenders and Fantastic Four it was shown, yet you insist that it is "A higher level of High 1-B" despite the narration stating that it is outside all space and time.

"Anyway, I am extremely tired of these types of topics."

If you are, why do you keep debating them? Debating while tired only impedes your judgment.

"My apologies, but that is final. End of discussion."

Please, don't talk as if your opinion is law. This accomplishes nothing but to push others further away from it.

"our most extremely generous approximation"

Stop describing anything in Marvel like that. There's 8 different instances that prove an Infinite-Dimensional Marvel Multiverse. It's one of the most consistent of any High 1-B fiction we have on our wiki. There's more proof that Eternity is High 1-B than proof that the Chousin are 1-A.

"The FF is larger, yes, but a larger being of the same dimensional level per definition. See it as if somebody chopped off your arm, and it mutated into being alive on its ow"

This is a terrible analogy. You keep saying that it is the same "Dimensional level per definition", but the only thing you are saying is that "It is a multiverse, so it can't be 1-A".

This is just as flawed as saying "This character is a human, so he can't have Higher-Dimensional powers", or "This character is a little girl in a frilly dress, so she can't be Universal", or "This is a cute pony, so she can't destroy stars".

Sentient embodiments of multiverses don't exist, and judging the First Firmament per definition is the same thing as judging a character by virtue of its size. It's like arguing that a Megazord is stronger than Goku because it's bigger. Sure, First Firmament is described as being the original universe from which everything emerges, but the infinite-dimensional multiverse is just a portion of the cosmos. There are undimensioned spaces outside of it, and characters who exist in and embody such levels of reality.
 
You want proof of 1-A. Okay.

The space outside Multi-Eternity is a dimensionless void of non-existence, outside all that is .

The Never Queen is repeatedly stated to exist outside the concepts of time and space . The void outside of Eternity is her region. As shown in the Fantastic Four storyline, the Beyonders are perfectly capable of affecting this region.

And indeed, the Beyonders have been stated to be dimensionless before.

"How can we have transcended all there is?"

"We are now... Beyond. It is from this incomprehensibly featureless level that the unknowable Beyonders observe our universe."

And the First Firmament is also repeatedly stated to exist outside Multi-Eternity and the totality of the Multiverse, and it also controlled and empowered Order and Chaos enough so that they killed the New Tribunal, who is canonically > Beyonders > Old Tribunal.

One.

Two.

Three.

"And in the darkness outside... Something laughs. At the dead Celestials. At the corpse of Cosmic Justice. At life corrupted into death. It laughs. And it wills its helpers on."

"It's coming back. Taking everything back into it. Taking everything."

We are shown everything from the Ultimates on Earth, to the dead Celestials, the Tribunal, Galactus and Logos as being tiny cosmic spheres floating in an immense nothingness. The First Firmament was taking back everything that exists, that has been created, into itself.

And he will return everything into a primal state of oneness.
 
Exactly what is the proof for the First Firmament being 1-A, other than that you wish it to be?

Multiverses cannot exceed Hilbert Space level in any form of theoretical physics. That is fact. You cannot avoid the fundamental meaning of a word as you please.

We were explicitly shown that the First Firmament was the first universe, and that it was split off into smaller universes that coalesced into a multiverse. That is it.

That the Never Queen was stated to be an embodiment of timelines that might be, as a complement to Eternity, and to exist in a space outside of time and a time outside of space, is not specific proof of 1-A.

I argue because 1-A is a very restrictive tier that requires solid proof, and I do not wish for characters to be included due to hype and popularity.

I also find it bothersome that you are recurrently involved in argumentative conflicts with different staff members.

We should probably take this to a private, rather than public discussion.

I will close this thread again. Do not open it again. I know that I am usually lenient and letting you do what you want, but I am the most active manager of this wiki, and am not willing to budge regarding that we should maintain our standards regarding the higher tiers.

Edit:

The Beyonders were stated to be 4-dimensional in the Kosmos and Kubik story.

Okay, the first scan actually is evidence of a 1-A Never Queen.

However, simply moving in a dimensionless space does not make characters beyond-dimensional themselves, or Dormammu and Umar would be 1-A as well.

I am reopening this.
 
As I mentioned in the edit of my last post, after seeing your scans, I am fine with a 1-A Never Queen.

However, I still think that we should wait and see regarding the First Firmament, and am not willing to upgrade the cosmic entities tied to the multiverse above High 1-B.
 
Anyway, just because the New Tribunal claimed to be stronger than the old Tribunal and the Beyonders, does not mean that we were given any proof. Being killed by Chaos and Order seems to contradict this.
 
They weren't stated to be 4D in the Kosmos Kubik storyline. This wouldn't make sense, specially since Kosmos and Kubik are 4D themselves, and the same storyline stated that Celestials (themselves far beneath the Beyonders in the hierarchy) are dozens of orders of infinity above Kosmos and Kubik.

What was actually stated was that the Beyonders exist in an incomprehensible, featureless level beyond all existence. Kosmos and Kubik just crossed the 4th-Dimensional Space-Time section of their realm into another .

I can agree on waiting for the First Firmament. Perhaps we should delete its profile for now? I can edit Never Queen.
 
As far as I could see, Kosmos and Kubik stated that they were in 4-Dimensional space in the realm of the Beyonders.

You can place an "At least" rating before the First Firmament's statistics, if you wish.
 
Anyway, feel free to adjust the Never Queen to 1-A. Just make sure to include this sca.
 
I'll just quote myself from another thread.

"The Never Queen is, on the other hand, a parallel to Eternity, who is an infinite-dimensional space-time. By definition, anything that is equal to him must exist independently of him, which the Never Queen does. This does not mean she completely transcends him, but instead that she is independent from him. If an infinite-dimensional object encompasses all we know, and another object exists outside of it, this does not mean the other object is fully transcendent of the first object."

"She is transcendent over space and time because Eternity is embodies space and time, but she is still parallel to Eternity. She is not infinitely beyond him. Eternity is space and time, yet exists in the same void as the Never Queen, but is not 1-A, because he is by definition an infinite-dimensional construct. Something without traditional dimensions can still have metaphysical parallels, which is the case with the Never Queen, or something like the Chaos Gods, who are beyond physical dimensions of time and space, but have their own constraints."
 
To quote myself in the same thread.

"Yes, she is also stated to be all infinite possible outcomes of the multiverse, but much like Yog-Sothoth is the Key and the Gate, being both all space and time and transcending it, the Never Queen is 1-A despite also accomplishing High 1-B functions. The feats are complementary rather than contradictory."

"The Never Queen is both complementary and independent. Eternity depends on her but she doesn't depend on Eternity. She is fully transcendent over Space and Time, as shown in the scans."

"She is both parallel and beyond Eternity. She is transcendent over all of space and time. Yes, Multi-Eternity can exist within the same void as the Never Queen, but said void is her, she exists in it. And has survived a blade that cut through said dimensionless void."
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
To quote myself in the same thread.
"Yes, she is also stated to be all infinite possible outcomes of the multiverse, but much like Yog-Sothoth is the Key and the Gate, being both all space and time and transcending it, the Never Queen is 1-A despite also accomplishing High 1-B functions. The feats are complementary rather than contradictory."

"The Never Queen is both complementary and independent. Eternity depends on her but she doesn't depend on Eternity. She is fully transcendent over Space and Time, as shown in the scans."

"She is both parallel and beyond Eternity. She is transcendent over all of space and time. Yes, Multi-Eternity can exist within the same void as the Never Queen, but said void is her, she exists in it. And has survived a blade that cut through said dimensionless void."
Click to expand...
I already addressed this in the first thread.

The Yog-Sothoth analogy doesn't work because Yog explicitly also embodies a void beyond all dimensions. He doesn't just reside in one.

Existing outside of Eternity does not make you 1-A, as Eternity also exists as the sum of himself in a place outside of himself.

Where is it shown this void is her, and not that it is a separate void? Because both she and Eternity exist in the same void, and it is never, to my knowledge, suggested she exists infinitely above Eternity. As a side note, the Edge of Reality is explicitly stated to be so powerful because it cuts through the fabric of existence itself, which the Never Queen is still part of (shown also when she died to the Beyonders' incursions while we have no evidence that Oblivion did). This further suggests she is on a level playing field with Eternity, not an entire league apart.
 
"Our High 1-B rating is technically extremely generous, given that Eternity is only treated as a 2-A collection of universes within this particular story"

Why are you editing an outright lie into the profile? This is not the case.
 
@Ant

That is the same space Eternity exists in, and he is, by definition, an infinite-dimensional embodiment of the multiverse. Saying the Never Queen is 1-A for existing there is the same as saying Eternity is 1-A for existing there. Furthermore, the Edge of Reality was stated to cut through the fabric of existence, further suggesting the Never Queen is part of the multiverse (as in the one TLT embodies, not the part Eternity embodies). This is because she is not actually an embodiment of "nothing" (which is what Oblivion is), but the embodiment of possibilities. She is still very much part of the multiverse, which is displayed even more so when she is killed by the Beyonders' incursions into the multiverse, just like the other Abstracts (sans Oblivion, who I believe there is still no evidence for him being "killed").
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Oblivion is alive. He appeared in a recent Squirrel Girl story.
Click to expand...
Please tell me Squirrel Girl kicked his ass. ovo
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
"Our High 1-B rating is technically extremely generous, given that Eternity is only treated as a 2-A collection of universes within this particular story"
Why are you editing an outright lie into the profile? This is not the case.
Click to expand...
I do think Matt is probably right on this, though. Was there actually anywhere in the story where he is stated to only be a collection of basic universes?
 
It is not a lie, and I do not appreciate the accusation.

Eternity is treated as a collection of universes that together comprise the multiverse within the Ultimates comicbook.

This was repeated when Al Ewing re-used the old X-Men plot point of the Celestials splitting the cosmos into several universes (originally timelines) that later coalesced into various iterations of Eternity.
 
@Antvasima

It is a lie...

4 out of the 6 statements explaining Multi-Eternity come from The Ultimates, and the comic has shown that the Multiverse contains realms beyond infinite universes. Galactus himself states that perceiving infinite universes as one is just a fragment of what there is, and we have explict names for the Higher-Dimensional spaces in which Abstracts can interact.
 
No, a lie would mean a deliberately worded lack of truth, and you should know me well enough to know that I never do that. I honestly believe in my statements. I have sent you a PM concerning this.

That said, I am willing to be proven wrong. Feel free to provide some scans that refresh my memory.
 
You are right, calling it a lie is a mistake on my part. I should have called it misinformation instead, or something equally less extreme. Sorry.

Will respond the PM.
 
Anyway, I think that Azathoth makes sense regarding that it may be best that the Never Queen stays at High 1-B.
 
I removed the parts of the footnotes that Matthew disagrees with from the Never Queen and First Firmament pages.

Also, I would appreciate if somebody could render the profile image of the First Firmament.
 
maybe somewhat unrelated, but would this affect the ratings of the Celestials? Our current page for Celestials is admitedly very poor in quality and has not been updated since the Infinity Gauntlet, which they scale from, got an upgrade
 
Well, since they created infinite timelines by splitting the multiverse, I suppose that a 2-A rating might be appropriate.
 
Would that affect the cosmic hierarchy? I mean I never understand the role of the Celestials in that hierarchy, since they are not abstracts.

Also a 2-A rating for celestials would mean 2-A Odin in Destroyer powered by all of Earth's pantheons
 
Also a mutliverse doesn't have to be bound by time and space. Remember the beyond realm. Its was an empty space too and it also had 1-A description.
 
The First Firmament created the original Celestials. The current versions appear to be their descendants.
 
On the other hand, another story heavily implied that the Fulcrum created the Celestials.
 
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