Doom Revision

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

@LephyrTheRevanchist

Can I have your thoughts on my breakdown below?

I'm flattered

While certainly I can see the merit on the breakdown, the same scan talking about Hell being unbound by time and space says that hell is the "inverse image of the human world". With that context in mind, I believe the relationship that Hell has over space and time is that it lacks them (more appropriately, that it doesn't follow standard laws of space-time), not necessarily transcends them in a qualitative superior manner.

With that in mind, statements of pandimensional and transdimensional would refer to the relationship of how they don't follow the standard understanding of dimensions.

That would be my main concern, really. Is there any other scan about Hell's relationship with space-time?

 

[ShionAH]

I'm flattered

While certainly I can see the merit on the breakdown, the same scan talking about Hell being unbound by time and space says that hell is the "inverse image of the human world". With that context in mind, I believe the relationship that Hell has over space and time is that it lacks them (more appropriately, that it doesn't follow standard laws of space-time), not necessarily transcends them in a qualitative superior manner.

With that in mind, statements of pandimensional and transdimensional would refer to the relationship of how they don't follow the standard understanding of dimensions.

That would be my main concern, really. Is there any other scan about Hell's relationship with space-time?

The OP has more stuff that supports it. Such as

• Hell's power in the skilled hands of the Sentinel Priests would move to a higher planes of existence.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

The OP has more stuff that supports it. Such as

• Hell's power in the skilled hands of the Sentinel Priests would move to a higher planes of existence.

Full quote:

After great effort the Priests discovered more than they had ever hoped for. They learned of the true nature of the demonic energy, and how it could strengthen those skilled enough to harness its power. The energy coursing through the malformed bodies of our relentless enemy could be used to end life, or to enhance it. The power to heal, to mend, immortality, knowledge and enlightened faculties beyond our understanding. With the demon's life force in the skilled hands of the Sentinel Priests, and under the righteous gaze of the Khan Maykr, our people would not only rise to victory over the unholy horde that clawed at our walls; we would move to a higher plateau of existence, ushering in a new era of military science and industrial healing. No Sentinel would grow sick, no Maykr would need suffer the Transfiguration that they so feared; all would be risen. None could ever oppose our peaceful ways and threaten our world again. True balance over Hell and its legions, over space and time, in this world and all others - we would dictate the order. United with the Maykrs, we would find eternal peace.

The higher plateau of existence seems to be referring to a new era of knowledge and possibilities.

Though the "balance over Hell and its legions, over space and time" also seems to suggest Hell is not truly transcendent as suggested.

 

[PavilVers]

sure that is not Mykar creates the Martians and these are the ancestors of humans in that alternate timeline?

I am sure, because it is indicated that they were created on Earth, in the Earthly Real. Not Martian

One, it's only theorized, not confirmed. Also, when did it say the Maykrs created humanity?

There was an interview with Hugo on one Russian website.

Библия, инопланетный "скот", измерения и Палач: Разговор c id перед Doom Eternal - The Ancient Gods Part Two

Doom Eternal вызвала разные реакции в игровом сообществе. Я понимаю тех, кому по душе прежний, классический Doom, где события разворачиваются в относительно небольшом масштабе, а глобального развития практически нет. Но...

shazoo.ru

Is this really the place to talk about this?

Why not? You take information from Doom 3, so it is quite necessary to understand the canonicity of this part.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

This is derailing. Doom 3 is accepted as canon. Create a CRT if you have problems with that.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I don't think it was ever implied that Doom 3 was non canon, only that it stars a different protagonist.

 

[PavilVers]

This is derailing. Doom 3 is accepted as canon.

There are no official statements that Doom 3 is completely canonical. Until this is confirmed, it is better not to take it into account.

Create a CRT if you have problems with that.

I do not know how to do this.

I don't think it was ever implied that Doom 3 was non canon, only that it stars a different protagonist.

Nothing was said about the other protagonist. It was about the fact that Doom 3 is not officially specified by the canon and in many ways contradicts the new lore

 

[ShionAH]

Full quote:

The higher plateau of existence seems to be referring to a new era of knowledge and possibilities.

Though the "balance over Hell and its legions, over space and time" also seems to suggest Hell is not truly transcendent as suggested.

With how many quotes I have. 5D seems good though, its obvious hell is like some kind of a higher dimension

 

[Firestorm808]

@PavilVers

Please refrain from posting multiple messages at a time.

There is a reply button at the bottom right of the post you wish to reply to.

There was an interview with Hugo on one Russian website.

Библия, инопланетный "скот", измерения и Палач: Разговор c id перед Doom Eternal - The Ancient Gods Part Two

Doom Eternal вызвала разные реакции в игровом сообществе. Я понимаю тех, кому по душе прежний, классический Doom, где события разворачиваются в относительно небольшом масштабе, а глобального развития практически нет. Но...

shazoo.ru

Nothing Hugo said suggests that the Maykrs created humanity.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

There are no official statements that Doom 3 is completely canonical. Until this is confirmed, it is better not to take it into account.

Bro its literally a mainline Doom game and has been said to be in alternate timeline essentially..

 

[PavilVers]

Nothing Hugo said suggests that the Maykrs created humanity.

"According to Laura Doom, the Creators were related to the creation of the Earth, which is why people perceive them as angels from religious scriptures."

Bro its literally a mainline Doom game and has been said to be in alternate timeline essentially..

Starting with Doom 2016, the universe was restarted, and the history of the first parts of Doom (Doom 1, Doom 2 and Doom 64.) was simply tied to it, these are Hugo's clear words. There are no confirmations regarding Doom 3

 

[ShionAH]

Dont derail

 

[Firestorm808]

"According to Laura Doom, the Creators were related to the creation of the Earth, which is why people perceive them as angels from religious scriptures."

Hugo didn't say that.

 

[Firestorm808]

@Planck69

Can I have your thoughts on my breakdown below?

• Contextual Statements | Main Statements
  • Hell causes "transdimensional encounters"
    • The general definition of transdimensional leans toward the context of higher mathematical dimensionalityfor Hell.
      • (science fiction) Relating to a dimension other than those of the normal three-dimensional world
      • (statistics) Applicable to multiple dimensionalities; Having components or subspaces of a different dimension
  • Hell is described as having a pandimensional existence.
    • The general definition of pandimensional pertains to all dimensions of reality.
    • The low end is all parallel dimensions with the high end being all higher dimensions.
    • Considering the previous statements of mathematical dimensionality, the next statement regarding 4-D, and the current agreements about Davoth and the Void, all dimensions of reality likely include mathematically higher dimensions. Conservatively, this can be taken as one qualitative size larger.
  • Hell is unlimited by the
    • boundaries of space,
      • Similar to the Universe, it has Infinite 3-D Space
    • [boundaries of] time,
      • The Multiverse is already a 2-A 4-D structure. This suggests Hell at least meets the 4-D Dimensionality of the Multiverse at 2-A.
    • or [boundaries of] dimension.
      • Considering the previous contexts of mathematical dimensions, 4-D previously referred to, and the dimensionality of Davoth and the Void, this suggests dimensions more than the prior 2-A 4-D.
      • Conservatively, this can be taken as one qualitative size larger.
• Statements that use the context above | Side Supporting Statements
  • Book of the Seraphs - Part I: Davoth "A realm superior to Urdak."
    • On its own, there is just a possibility of qualitative superiority.
  • "Many worlds have fallen to Hell, each now bound to ruin, connected by pathways of darkness transcending space and time."
  • Doom 3: Maelstrom: It contains evils that "transcended time and space."
    • On their own, there is just a possibility of a qualitative transcendence.

In summary, I can see the merit of Hell being Low 1-C.

 

[Vietthai96]

So now what happening here?, Hell being 5D and Davoth being 6D???

 

[ShionAH]

So now what happening here?, Hell being 5D and Davoth being 6D???

Yes

 

[Vietthai96]

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

With how many quotes I have. 5D seems good though, its obvious hell is like some kind of a higher dimension

Unfortunately I don't see anything sufficient. If other staff find it sufficient tho, then that's another matter.

 

[Firestorm808]

Unfortunately I don't see anything sufficient. If other staff find it sufficient tho, then that's another matter.

If not a solid rating, would you see enough merit for a "possibly" rating?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

If not a solid rating, would you see enough merit for a "possibly" rating?

Not even then, sadly. The most solid quote itself already has quite the glaring issue (establishing a dual relationship with the human world, which if we take the rest of the quotes at face value, would mean the human world itself transcends space-time), while the rest are merely supportive.

 

[ShionAH]

Not even then, sadly. The most solid quote itself already has quite the glaring issue (establishing a dual relationship with the human world, which if we take the rest of the quotes at face value, would mean the human world itself transcends space-time), while the rest are merely supportive.

So many quotes are not enough? Theres no logical way of Hell being in the same dimension as the human world

 

[Planck69]

@Planck69

Can I have your thoughts on my breakdown below?

Hmmm. At least from the breakdown, Low 1-C Hell looks solid to me.

 

[ShionAH]

Hmmm. At least from the breakdown, Low 1-C Hell looks solid to me.

Yep thank you! Is this enough then? 3 agreements

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

So many quotes are not enough? Theres no logical way of Hell being in the same dimension as the human world

Doesn't mean it is qualitative superior. In fact, couple of these quotes directly point to the opposite.

All of the quotes in the OP don't really establish a transcendent relationship in the sense of tier 1, merely that they exist separately, that these demons come "from the outside" (which fits quite well with the first definition of Transdimensional brought by Firestorm). Combined with the established nature of Hell being the opposite to the human world, and all of the other quotes gain a new meaning.

 

[ShionAH]

Doesn't mean it is qualitative superior. In fact, couple of these quotes directly point to the opposite.

All of the quotes in the OP don't really establish a transcendent relationship in the sense of tier 1, merely that they exist separately, that these demons come "from the outside" (which fits quite well with the first definition of Transdimensional brought by Firestorm). Combined with the established nature of Hell being the opposite to the human world, and all of the other quotes gain a new meaning.

• Book of the Seraphs - Part I: Davoth "A realm superior to Urdak."

I am done. I will put you on disagree

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Hmmm. At least from the breakdown, Low 1-C Hell looks solid to me.

I greatly suggest reading the full quotes.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

• Book of the Seraphs - Part I: Davoth "A realm superior to Urdak."

I am done. I will put you on disagree

Urdak exists in an anchor state, locked in a static position relative to other dimensions at a sub-quantum level using advanced technology. This essentially inverts Urdak's position in relation to Hell, meaning these planes of existence are fixed outside of the bounds of the known universe, which makes the Maykrs refer to them as 'lower' and 'higher' reality.[2] Creatures from Urdak cannot enter Hell, and demons cannot enter Urdak

Bruh

Edit: So yeah, if the wiki is correct, it completely shoots tier 1 hell in the foot, as it straight up supported my interpretation that Hell is merely outside space-time, and is not superior to Urdak in a tier 1 sense, but that they are on inverted positions.

 

[Planck69]

I greatly suggest reading the full quotes.

Hmm. Reading through them does make the premise a lot more shaky. At the very least for the first statement of transdimensional and the way "extradimensional beasts" is used means that it refers to other universes/space-time continuums in that context rather than higher-dimensional beings.

Being unbound by space, time and dimensions looks good as support for the rating, as does being superior to another 4-dimensional reality.

Pandimensional had the same issues as the above transdimensional statement. The "transcending space and time" could entirely mean in terms of being able to move from reality to reality uninhibited, referring to the context in which "extradimensional" is used.

Put me on neutral for now.

Sorry for not reading. Tired plus usually trust Firestorm's judgement.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Hmm. Reading through them does make the premise a lot more shaky. At the very least for the first statement of transdimensional and the way "extradimensional beasts" is used means that it refers to other universes/space-time continuums in that context rather than higher-dimensional beings.

Being unbound by space, time and dimensions looks good as support for the rating, as does being superior to another 4-dimensional reality.

Pandimensional had the same issues as the above transdimensional statement. The "transcending space and time" could entirely mean in terms of being able to move from reality to reality uninhibited, referring to the context in which "extradimensional" is used.

Put me on neutral for now.

Sorry for not reading. Tired plus usually trust Firestorm's judgement.

Thanks to Shion, seems the relationship of Hell is indeed established as being "outside" normal space-time and not truly transcendent. I will try to find the og quotes on that.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Urdak itself exists in an anchor state, utilizing highly advanced dimensional shift technology to allow a static position at a sub-quantum level. This essentially inverts their position in relation to Hell; both planes of existence are fixed outside the bounds of the known universe, a 'lower' and 'higher' reality. The Khan Maykr oversees all within Urdak, and now utilizes Argent Energy to prevent the Transfiguration.

— Here

 

[Planck69]

— Here

Huh. Yep, that'd definitely kill the argument of transcendence if they're just physically suspended lower and higher relative to each other on some higher order space-time.

 

[Aetheric Pariah]

I agree with Lephyr and Planck. Doesn't seem to denote transcendence of any kind and is merely talking about physical placement.

 

[Reiner04]

I agree with lephyr and plancks as well.

 

[ShionAH]

I hate my life

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I hate my life

always always always try to find full context to everything, my friend

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I think it makes sense

 

[Abu2411]

I hate my life

At least you tried, not many people can say that since the fear of failure overwhelms most, but not you here.

I disagree FRA though.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Alright, enough derail. Will be deleting some comments.

 

[ShionAH]

you brought the scans to my attention, it's your fault

Close this

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Close this

Go for BDE type 2 Hell. you can most likely do it.