Doom Eternal - The Ancient Gods - Part Two CRT (Spoilers Ahead)

[Gewsbumpz_dude]

I’d say yes. Hell Magic/Hell Energy is a force native to Hell, so it would be weird to assume he doesn’t have at least some control over it.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The "+" signs should be after the word level.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

• Immortality (Type 1). He needs a pre-reincarnation key where he gets immortality Type 5 and 8. Incorporality would get moved to that key as well, unless we heavily modify the page for Hell
• Creation
• Non-Physical Interaction (Can destroy souls)
• Absorption (Able to absorb lesser gods to acquire more power)
• Self-Sustinance (Type 1, 2, and 3)
• Acausality (Type 4) and Void Manipulation (Can travel through the void and mold his creation out of it)
• Limited Resurrection (His Life Sphere can be used to reincarnate him with a new physical body if it is brought to the Luminarium)
• Mind Manipulation (His whispers controlled the Khan Maykr to construct the Divinity Machine, and controlled the Seraphim into reversing it polarity and using it on the Doom Slayer. Instilling them with paranoia and distrust in the process)
• Precognition (Knew that the Doom Slayer will inevitably destroy the Maykrs, though he missed that this will be as part of his quest to destroy demons)
• Supernatural Willpower, and Resistance to: Mind Manipulation and Pain Manipulation for being able to survive the process of reincarnation.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

The explanation doesn't give a reason why Davoth would be 2-A. Where's the statement backing it up?

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

Also why Acausality (Type 4), immortality Type 5 and 8 and Supernatural Willpower, and Resistance to: Mind Manipulation and Pain Manipulation.

If I remember correctly, anyone with a vital sphere can easily be revived.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Why does Davoth have immunity to soul manipulation? He's not a demon.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Also why Acausality (Type 4), immortality Type 5 and 8 and Supernatural Willpower, and Resistance to: Mind Manipulation and Pain Manipulation.

If I remember correctly, anyone with a vital sphere can easily be revived.

The void is nothingness lacking space-time, but for Davoth it is somewhere to travel through and mold creation out of.

Unembodied Davoth was sentient Hell. It is hard to argue that you can 'kill' a sentient universe-eating dimension beyond the boundaries of space, time or dimensions (Deathless Immortality), and Davoth would be unkillable as long as long as Hell exists (Reliant Immortality). Hence why the Doom Slayer wanted to reincarnate him to kill him for good.

It is stated that the reincarnation process and the pain it induces can only be survived by a few individuals with strong minds.

Only the most powerful, god-like, indomitable minds can survive the incredible stresses of having their essence fused into a life sphere, and fewer still can bear the agony of corporal resurrection. ~Book of the Seraphs - Part IV

Any supplicant may approach the holy ground of the Luminarium with life sphere in hand. Be they the most powerful in Hell, or the weakest in Urdak, all can approach the Luminarium to gain access to the power of corporal resurrection, though few minds are capable of surviving it. In the Luminarium the Seraphs serve all of Creation without preference. ~Book of the Seraphs - Part VII

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

Ok

 

[Axxtentacle]

...hey what? Davoth isn't reliant on Hell? Huh?

 

[Axxtentacle]

Ok why are we saying Davoth is sentient Hell and that he's reliant on Hell? Hell is just something he created.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Hell itself is a living thing, an entity possessing certain undeniable sentience.

Davoth bent all Jekkad utterly to his will, consumed with fury at their abandonment, until outside the gleaming walls of Immora the plundered festered. The clear-watered Pleasure Lakes spoiled into the Blood Swamps. The Palace of Groans grew over the Ardenite Gardens. ~Book of the Seraphs - Part I

 

[Axxtentacle]

Ok, Davoth created a living dimension. It's not him, it's strictly separate. As said earlier, it's an extension of his power.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

I'm still waiting for the proof for 2-A.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Give me a minute. I'll go find the codex.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Ok, got it.

Within the infinite conscious-matrix of the all-seeing Maykr God-mind, there exists every potentiality - every predictive variable of possible future timeline - each one known to the Maykr collective with omniscient, inextricable clarity. The God-mind surveys these timelines, watching them form and expand exponentially like fractal patterns in the fabric of existence. Among these infinite possibilities, only one constant appears among them, unchanged by the flowing data of endless variability - that of the prophesied Destroyer - the one who would bring about the destruction of the Maykrs.

Here's the source I copy pasted from. I can get in-game screenshots of the codex if that's necessary as well.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Ok, Davoth created a living dimension. It's not him, it's strictly separate. As said earlier, it's an extension of his power.

The fact that Davoth's consciousness would not get destroyed by destroying his Life Sphere means that it resides elsewhere. Early on, the Seraphim begged Vega to destroy the Life Sphere to obliterate Davoth's essence, but later on reincarnating Davoth became a requirement to kill him.

I'm still waiting for the proof for 2-A.

Argument for 2-A comes from the implied existence of infinitely branching timelines. As mentioned in the OP:

• A dedicated portion of VEGA's simulation matrix observes, records, and analyzes these dimensional abnormalities as VEGA attempts to comprehend their meaning. Processing a veritable kaleidoscope of hyperfluxual phenomena, VEGA observes what may very well be the result of the multiverse imploding on itself, where countless battles are fought between the Doom Slayer and demonkind.
• Within the infinite conscious-matrix of the all-seeing Maykr God-mind, there exists every potentiality - every predictive variable of possible future timelines - each one known to the Maykr collective with omniscient, inextricable clarity. The God-mind surveys these timelines, watching them form and expand exponentially like fractal patterns in the fabric of existence. Among these infinite possibilities, only one constant appears among them, unchanged by the flowing data of endless variability - that of the prophesied Destroyer - the one who would bring about the destruction of the Maykrs.

An unused dialogue in Doom Eternal is an offer to send the Doom Slayer to a timeline where Earth wasn't invaded:

Khan Maykr: "I will send you back to your home, the earth world in the 7th dimension, before the time of the demons. You may live there again as before. No memory of all the suffering you have been through. All your loved ones will be there, waiting to embrace you again. As if you have never left."

It is also stated in the Codex that Maykrs are capable of time travel:

These were beings unlike any we had seen before, sword and shield held no weight against them, for the ethereal flesh of these luminous beings seemed unbound by mortality. Able to move through time and space, they held sway over all dominions of the known and unknown dimensions.

 

[Axxtentacle]

The fact that Davoth's consciousness would not get destroyed by destroying his Life Sphere means that it resides elsewhere. Early on, the Seraphim begged Vega to destroy the Life Sphere to obliterate Davoth's essence, but later on reincarnating Davoth became a requirement to kill him.

Ok? This doesn't mean Hell is Davoth itself. Primevals aren't literally their realms because they're in a life sphere. They're just disembodied consciousness.

Killing Davoth didn't destroy Hell as we're pretty blatantly shown, so that's just not true.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Normally Primevals as Life Spheres can only whisper and observe, and they can be completely obliterated by destroying the Life Sphere. But Davoth is a special case who managed to bend the dimension to his will while disembodied, and he no longer needs the Life Sphere for anything other than physical reincarnation. He'll still rule Hell unless he is killed in both body and soul while reincarnated.

Not saying that Davoth sustains Hell, but that Hell was sustaining Davoth's consciousness before he reincarnated.

 

[Axxtentacle]

The Father wasn't obliterated by destroying the Life Sphere.

I feel like you're connecting dots that just don't actually connect here, as literally none of this means that Hell was sustaining Davoth's disembodied consciousness.

Additionally, he warped Hell before having his Life Sphere ripped from his chest.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

The Father deconstructed his consciousness into an AI.

Don't need to connect dots; the Seraphim was convinced that destroying Davoth's Life Sphere will destroy his consciousness.

Hell was warped after the Life Sphere was ripped from Davoth:

The Maykrs acted in secret and worked quickly to seal Jekkad away, and Davoth with it, while the records of Urdak were rewritten to hide the truth. Enraged, Davoth became the Dark Lord as vengeance and hatred consumed him and his world, transforming it into Hell. ~The Betrayal of the Father

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Argument for 2-A comes from the implied existence of infinitely branching timelines. As mentioned in the OP:

• A dedicated portion of VEGA's simulation matrix observes, records, and analyzes these dimensional abnormalities as VEGA attempts to comprehend their meaning. Processing a veritable kaleidoscope of hyperfluxual phenomena, VEGA observes what may very well be the result of the multiverse imploding on itself, where countless battles are fought between the Doom Slayer and demonkind.
• Within the infinite conscious-matrix of the all-seeing Maykr God-mind, there exists every potentiality - every predictive variable of possible future timelines - each one known to the Maykr collective with omniscient, inextricable clarity. The God-mind surveys these timelines, watching them form and expand exponentially like fractal patterns in the fabric of existence. Among these infinite possibilities, only one constant appears among them, unchanged by the flowing data of endless variability - that of the prophesied Destroyer - the one who would bring about the destruction of the Maykrs.

It would be nice to add this to the reasoning for Davoth.

 

[Axxtentacle]

The Father deconstructed his consciousness into an AI.

Don't need to connect dots; the Seraphim was convinced that destroying Davoth's Life Sphere will destroy his consciousness.

Hell was warped after the Life Sphere was ripped from Davoth:

The Maykrs acted in secret and worked quickly to seal Jekkad away, and Davoth with it, while the records of Urdak were rewritten to hide the truth. Enraged, Davoth became the Dark Lord as vengeance and hatred consumed him and his world, transforming it into Hell. ~The Betrayal of the Father

The sealing away of Hell and the ripping away of Davoth's Life Sphere are strictly separate events, though.

Also, wasn't The Seraphim only wanting him to destroy Davoth's sphere because he feared what would happen if Davoth was resurrected? And thought the Doom Slayer couldn't kill him?

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

They are all part of the event where the Father betrayed Davoth. Davoth himself was sealed... in the Temple of Souls after having his Life Sphere ripped.

It is stated that destroying Davoth's Life Sphere would silence him.

The Seraphs remember that when the Dark Lord's lifeless body tumbled down the Pyramid of the Lost, Samur begged the Father to crush the Dark Lord's life sphere. Samur saw that they could destroy the Dark Lord's very essence so that he would brood no more against the Father. The Father refused. The Dark Lord was his creation. It was better to leave Hell contained, with the Dark Lord reduced to whispers. ~Book of the Seraph

 

[Antvasima]

It would be nice to add this to the reasoning for Davoth.

Agreed.

 

[Axxtentacle]

No, Hell was sealed off with Davoth in it, which lead to The Father eventually taking his life sphere out when the Father went to him.

Believing Jekkad rejected by their creator, hate grew within Davoth. Jekkad fell further into inequity as Davoth consumed all the realm in pursuit of his goals, and the Father sorrowfully sealed Jekkad away from the other realms. The Primeval, created to protect and shepherd the people of his realm, stoked an eternal fury toward the Father as more of his people fell to mortality. He became the Dark Lord and raged against the walls of Jekkad.

The Father sensed this and knew they both needed to leave the physical realms before their warring lieutenants tore creation apart. It was then that the Father returned to Jekkad, now called Hell by many. Atop the Pyramid of the Lost where Hell once worshipped the Father, as the skies split and Hell trembled, the Father ripped the Dark Lord's life sphere from his chest. He placed it in the Tomb of Souls, unwilling to obliterate the Dark Lord's essence entirely as he had favored Davoth once.

The Father sealed Hell away, and then AFTERWARDS the Dark Lord had his Life Sphere ripped out and he alone got sealed away. Hell being sealed was a separate event.

If it came to pass that the Dark Lord were ever reincarnated in physical form only another Primeval, or something more powerful, could slay him. Once vanquished in this manner, the Dark Lord could no longer rule Hell. Stripped of a Primeval's bindings to the realm it was forged in, it would be scattered across the stars. Any denizens of Hell not inside the realm's borders would die as they lost their connection to the very reality the Father designed them for.

You realize that the next part literally contradicts that statement? He HAS to be reincarnated into physical form and permanently killed like that to keep him from ruling Hell.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

In the Book of Seraphim, which was edited to make VEGA look like the real creator, Jekkad transformed into Hell before it was sealed.
In the records of the Hell Priests, which is more authentic, Jekkad transformed into Hell after both Jekkad and Davoth were sealed.

So Davoth would still be alive and would rule Hell if he was not physically reincarnated, and had his Life Sphere destroyed.

 

[Firestorm808]

I'll update the draft soon.

 

[Axxtentacle]

"The Maykrs acted in secret and worked quickly to seal Jekkad away, and Davoth with it, while the records of Urdak were rewritten to hide the truth. Enraged, Davoth became the Dark Lord as vengeance and hatred consumed him and his world, transforming it into Hell."

Let me specifically point out: "and Davoth with it," which means he was sealed with Hell. Meaning that he wasn't specifically sealed away by himself yet, or else they would specifically say that the Dark Lord's Life Sphere was sealed away by The Father.

Where does this contradict the fact that The Father went to Hell afterwards and stole Davoth's Life Sphere?

Either way, it still doesn't mean that Davoth's disembodied consciousness was reliant on Hell to exist.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

The Tomb of Souls, the place where Davoth was trapped, exists in Jekkad.

First of all, your scenario is convoluted; So the betrayal by the Maykrs and the Father happened and Jekkad was sealed, and then overtime the Father decided that he should steal Davoth's Life Sphere, and he then broke through the seal and risked his power getting stolen by an angry Davoth? He doesn't even have the advantage of a backstab?

You scenario contradicts how the Dark Lord can still rule Hell if his Life Sphere is destroyed. The Father's mind was separated from his Life Sphere, so he can still live in a way as VEGA. How can the Dark Lord keep ruling hell if his Life Sphere is destroyed, why must he be reincarnated physically in order to be killed?

 

[MicDaniel]

The Tomb of Souls, the place where Davoth was trapped, exists in Jekkad.

First of all, your scenario is convoluted; So the betrayal by the Maykrs and the Father happened and Jekkad was sealed, and then overtime the Father decided that he should steal Davoth's Life Sphere, and he then broke through the seal and risked his power getting stolen by an angry Davoth? He doesn't even have the advantage of a backstab?

You scenario contradicts how the Dark Lord can still rule Hell if his Life Sphere is destroyed. The Father's mind was separated from his Life Sphere, so he can still live in a way as VEGA. How can the Dark Lord keep ruling hell if his Life Sphere is destroyed, why must he be reincarnated physically in order to be killed?

Considering that someone's mind can be seperated from there Life Sphere, The Father could Destroy Davoths Soul and leave him as only as a consciousness. If He destroyed the Life Sphere while the consciousness was still attached, Davoth would Essentially return to his original form. A disembodied spirit, Completely abstract from space and time, Capable of Manipulating things while being Completely untouchable.

 

[Axxtentacle]

The Tomb of Souls, the place where Davoth was trapped, exists in Jekkad.

Yes, this doesn't disprove that it could happen afterwards, not everything in the adjusted books is necessarily wrong.

First of all, your scenario is convoluted; So the betrayal by the Maykrs and the Father happened and Jekkad was sealed, and then overtime the Father decided that he should steal Davoth's Life Sphere, and he then broke through the seal and risked his power getting stolen by an angry Davoth? He doesn't even have the advantage of a backstab?

Because Davoth was still warring against him?? Nothing about that part is contradicted, and it's still logically applicable here.

You scenario contradicts how the Dark Lord can still rule Hell if his Life Sphere is destroyed.

If his mind was separate, then sure. But that's not the case here.

The Father's mind was separated from his Life Sphere, so he can still live in a way as VEGA. How can the Dark Lord keep ruling hell if his Life Sphere is destroyed, why must he be reincarnated physically in order to be killed?

This sounds more like a contradiction in the story itself. But nonetheless it doesn't prove that he is reliant on Hell as a disembodied consciousness.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

I say we go for the more straight-forward explanation which does not contradict the story.

If his mind was separate, then sure. But that's not the case here.

Evidence? How can he keep ruling hell with no mind if he is vanquished via. crushing his Life Sphere?

 

[Axxtentacle]

I say we go for the more straight-forward explanation which does not contradict the story.

I say relying on headcanon isn't a good idea, it's just an inconsistency.

Evidence? How can he keep ruling hell with no mind if he is vanquished via. crushing his Life Sphere?

Asking me to prove that his mind isn't separate from his body without you actually giving evidence for it first?

 

[DTG499]

Asking me to prove that his mind isn't separate from his body without you actually giving evidence for it first?

The fact that samur removed the fathers mind from his orb?

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

The evidence is that Davoth would not be capable of ruling Hell if his memory, intelligence, will, and the essential nature of his being's consciousness is destroyed. But he would still be capable of ruling Hell if his Life Sphere was destroyed. Ergo, his intelligence, will, and the essential nature of his being's consciousness is not in the Life Sphere.
And that the only way to kill Davoth is to physically reincarnate him first.
And that destroying Davoth's Life Sphere early on would have prevented him from whispering.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Ok, but that doesn't prove he's reliant on Hell...?

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Is this a semantic objection? Immortality Type 8, aka. Reliant Immortality, just means that he is unkillable as long as something exists. This doesn't imply inferior power or other types of dependencies.

 

[Axxtentacle]

I'm only objecting to him being reliant on Hell. I don't think there's any proof for that, if Type 8 is achieved with the other life sphere stuff then sure.

Though, this does lead me to question. All that the Doom Slayer really did was stab his Life Sphere, which destroyed it, and permanently killed him. How exactly do we explain that or is it just a plothole?

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

The Father pulled Davoth's life sphere which killed his body, but the Father chose to spare Davoth's essence and not crush his Life Sphere.
Doom Slayer stabbed the Life Sphere causing the body to be killed and the essence to be destroyed.

The Doom Slayer managed to destroy the soul entomped within the Gladiator's shield by stabbing it, so there might be some shenanigans involved.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Probably some NPI soul/concept/wtv bull involved, that could explain it.

That could technically warrant some kind of ability for the Doom Slayer if we can conclude what their "will" and "mind" are supposed to be in the verse, right? Like, better NPI?