Divine Dimensional Dance 2nd round: Shinza Gods downgrade

[PrinceofPein]

I know this is out of the topic but if we are downgrading shinza due to being called higher dimensional shouldnt we also downgrade umineko and other stuff?

I dont think it works like that, since most of the time its just narration of their existence compared to a lower one so the author tend to use higher dimension from a narrative point

 

[Nero]

I dont think it works like that, since most of the time its just narration of their existence compared to a lower one so the author tend to use higher dimension from a narrative point

Exactly.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Alright, I've heard some new arguments from people on Discord who are knowledgeable on Shinza Banshō, so here we go:

According to an explanation of the history of the cosmology, creation was initially only a single, four-dimensional universe. By the time of Mercurius' reign, however, he modified creation to be a twelve-dimensional multiverse. The world then expanded even further when Hajun took the Throne, to twenty-four dimensions.

This is true yeah (tho it's more like Pre-Throne ->first iteration ->the dimensions of ParaLost ->Idea of parallel universes ->dimensions stuff but not the same way -> **** let's invite everyone but Hajun)

However, all of this is still contained within creation, which from the perspective of a God, is like a canvas that can be painted over at will. This is what leads us to this analogy:

These scans talk about how what is drawn in a painting, no matter how realistic it may be, can never affect the painter. Meanwhile, the painter can easily destroy this painting if they so chose. I think we all are well aware of the fact that creation is compared to a canvas that whoever holds the Throne can paint on at will, so I hope I don't need to elaborate on that. The point is that the canvas of creation can accommodate higher dimensions without issue.

Akuro's scene is about how Soujirou and Shiori attacks can't hurt him.
Also the painting analogy in others context is about painting the world with your law, and how you can't undo this once it's done. With applying your law too much time creating holes.

Also this scene accentuate a lot the fact that Gods are indeed higher dimensionnal, using the terminology to assert the fact.

Actually, speaking of the Throne, there is one piece of text given out (without a scan, but the provider is an expert on Shinza Banshō, IIRC) which describes it as follows:

With this in mind, the Throne's description as 超次元 (chō jigen) can much more easily be interpreted as meaning "beyond dimensions." It should be viewed as a supportive detail and not as a critical argument, though.

Can't find this part in K3 nor ParaLost files. Don't want to sound too doubtful, but last thread already had fake stuff so one can't be too sure.

Also there's the fact that Cho Jigen never is used that way? I mean, the word in general. Tho it's a detail like you said.

Finally, it may be of interest to note that Yakou Madara, someone whose effective Taiji value is 0 due to him lacking a color (i.e., a desire) and therefore doesn't count as a God, can create higher-dimensional barriers, while a Hadou God with as little as 1 Taiji can potentially access the Throne which, as established, sits at the limit of higher dimensions and thus would encompass them as a principle. Even if the higher dimensions in Madara's case don't count for scaling (or so I've heard), the mere fact that he can create something that's higher-dimensional within the canvas of creation supports the Gods being more than that.

The OP litteraly proves that said higher dimensional barriers are actually able to block Gods' attacks and laws. The only instance where it failed is against Ootake, who's like one of the strongest Tenma and the reincarnation of Machina, who's destructive power is pretty known.

Also there's the fact that Madara in-game profile put his abilities with his Colorless Taiji on par with the Tenmas.

 

[QuasiYuri]

I'm more annoyed on the misconceptions here cuz its ridiculous to many extents

Btw what kingpin mentions does exist in the throne page of atwiki which is a pretty accurate wiki on shinza and masada works in general.

Last i checked the cut the tenma statement was aimed to numahime who is the mother of all distortions so she not only didn't care, she shoved a better cut up his face (iirc even they were kikei boosted so it wasn't "natural").

I would prefer scans for this. Also it just says that it would cut Tenmas, not absolutely destroy them.

And there is the fact higher dimensions exist unless you are really trying to downplay it to 1-B levels because we don't have a pure number other than how worthless such things are to a taiji user, the throne and singulairty. Like again all this hinges on 2 things that saying higher D = not being above dimenions and 2 ignoring aspects of some of the plot (i mention time armor to also explain that yeah their statements say they are higher D to the EE but it doesn't mean they are bound to it

Without higher dimensions I would have more of a hard time proving they aren't below 1-B.

Also the Singularity litteraly have stuff like time in it (see the Twilight Beach), proving that it isn't above all extensions of every concept in the world; this being something you didn't prove.

I said its because other circumstances had allowed him to block the others attacks but the moment ootake got serious he got ******. The 4th is cuz he has taiji not so I don't get it. Alrfy had explain why it worked and without that which did happen against Yakou he got fisted.

And you need proof.
They explained for Morei by saying he said her true name; but his proof were: 1) Another fight 2) Later

Technically PL has higher dimensions since the angels need to be killed by higher dimensional energy (anti-angels can only interact the lower worlds via hosts)

I have to add yakou's essential value being 0 due to a lack of desire has reached the throne (he still had taiji doe).

And yes Marie has taiji due to being a gudou but with an unknown value.

All this I acknowledge.
Tho in Yakou's case it's more a real lack of value than an indicator of power, since his own profile sure doesn't put him as an absolute weakling compared to Tenmas.

 

[QuasiYuri]

By this, you mean that Madara was able to reach the Throne despite having an effective Taiji value of 0 (because his Taiji is colorless), right? The only way that that can make sense, as far as I can see, would be for Madara's Taiji to have matched Hajun's at that point. After all, Tenma Yato couldn't reach Hajun even after drilling through his Singularity for thousands of years.

Actually first time is just the weird fact that he got Taiji without Craving, while it's supposed to be the opposite (you get craving first), and for Madara it was explained that his nature as Gudou played a role in it, since he wasn't considered as an actual competitor and all (also Naraka would have prevented this anyway).

 

[QuasiYuri]

So well I realized instead of trying to idk counter Yuri point by point, I will try and make my own explanation of the shinza banshou cosmology and hope o cover some of his point there. Please Yuri try and see cause I realized you had some misconceptions about the whole cosmology

(I actually wrote this comment last)
You cruelly lack scans and ignore a lot of what is presented as feats. So saying I have "misconceptions" but ignoring feats blatantly going against your explanation isn't very cool.

So here it goes

First taikyoku (taiji)
"Taikyoku" (in japanese, 太極) is just the romanized spelling of "Taiji" (in fact, the kanji read in KKK as Taikyoku literally mean "Taiji"). Taikyoku, simply put, is the Supreme Ultimate, the source of all of existence. In Taoist teachings, it's even the source of Yin and Yang. The concept is pretty much identical in Shinza.

This part isn't really relevant. Not saying that it is wrong, just that you have to prove it acts that way.

Taikyoku is the power of Gods in this universe. Hadou Gods, whose Taikyoku flows outwards from themselves, instead of generating an internal universe, are the source of what is perceived in Shinza as "reality". They are the sources of all phenomena, souls, and concepts.

They are more what decides of "how the world is", but are the sources of their iteration. Not having a Throne God would lead to the end of the world tho.

I'm sure from what has been said and if you have read the shinza explanation page you must have come across yakou explanation of taikyoku the one about underwater......., so I will just skip and try and explain it

I litteraly put this one in the OP. How can you not be sure that I've read it?

As Yakou tells us, Taikyoku is a Law which is absolute in regards to the World, and its nature is also enough to identificate its originator. He went further to say the laws and orders the world follows are mere physics and taikyoku is something, basically no matter what the law is the moment it become taikyoku the rest of creation follows suit(no matter the layers btw)

Now yakou made this quote also
み森羅万象から外れるという太極である。
Translation: My own Law which lets me gain total control of all things in Creation, my own Law that disconnects me from all things in Creation is Taikyoku.

That is true yeah. Your law rewrite the rest and all. What doesn't make it mere physics is the fact that it is fueled by your Colour/Craving.

Taikyoku is the basis of reality in Shinza, not just a simple power. That reality you see in each game? It's the outflow of a Hadou God's Taikyoku. Souls, space, time, concepts, physics, even emotions, Taikyoku is the source of everything. And fights between Gods is basically painting over their opponent's worlds with their own Taikyoku. And Values determine The strength of these Laws They originate.

Pre-Throne Area directly contradict this notion. Although the rest is true for each iterations.

if you even have a value of 1 Taikyoku you are already above all reality including concepts, universes, multiverses and dimensions since they all originate from the taikyoku.

You just said that it was the origin and overwrote stuff, you didn't prove any transcendance.

Basically everything originates from the taikyoku that powers the gods and the rest of creation (including everything in it dimensions, laws or whatever) was called a picture on multiple occasions in fact emanation was said to be a painting that uses the entire creation as its canvas,
And vs wiki standards is
"However, do note that a character can qualify for this rating even if their verse does not have an infinitely-layered or equivalent cosmology, as long as it is either stated, shown or left very obvious that the character in question already bypasses the very nature of such structures altogether, in a way that simply "stacking" more of them logically would not allow one to reach their level of power / size."

The painting analogy regarding the laws was used to explain the fact that once you extend your law on the world, there's no coming back.

Yes same way a picture or a painting can never affect reality I dont think expanding the layers of something they view as picture would even be enough to even reach their level of power.

Feats says otherwise.

The whole misconception comes from thinking taiji is a creation feat, no its way more than that its the source of creation like a painter is the source of its painting and the painting can't even reach the painter level of power.

I mean when soujiro tried to cut ootake the narrator said it's not cause of ootake durability but simply cause a fire depicted in a picture can never harm reality and ootake is simply disconnected from soujiro and the rest of creation.

Soujirou didn't try to cut Ootake tho...? It was Akuro

Taikyoku gives them control of everything in creation while disconnecting them from it, (idg it will be really idk to say dimensions are not part of the said creation tbat taikyoku disconnects them from and also statements of the throne been in a beyond dimensional space e.t.c.)
I believe this is the explanation of taikyoku to the extent in which I can simplify it.

Being disconnected isn't the same as transcending on a 1-A level.
Also you seem to forgot stuff like Singularity having time, the fact that Gods were litteraly blocked by higher dimensional stuff, etc...

Overall most of it are explanations which ignore the feats presented (or do a big jump of assumption, because you only use the painter analogy which would be one layer of R/F difference), while only bringing a single sentence (which is in the OP and explained) to support it.

 

[QuasiYuri]

What I'm trying to prove is Taiji is 1-A. Marie wouldnt exist outside The Worlds Concept without it anyways.

You can be outside of the world's concept while not being 1-A.
Type 4 accausal litteraly operate under a different set of laws. So does Gudou Gods.

 

[Nero]

You can be outside of the world's concept while not being 1-A.
Type 4 accausal litteraly operate under a different set of laws. So does Gudou Gods.

Then what's the difference? As long as the character is outside being unbounded by the concept of dimensions that grants 1-A rating

 

[QuasiYuri]

Just a little thing:

Most of what I answered isn't trying to fight feats by feats, but uses explanation as absolute truth. Mostly without scans to back it up

There's also the fact that some are really ignoring what was presented and nearly seem to do the shortcut "downgrade Shinza --> wrong".
I'm mainly talking about stuff like:

"Even if the higher dimensions in Madara's case don't count for scaling (or so I've heard), the mere fact that he can create something that's higher-dimensional within the canvas of creation supports the Gods being more than that." ----> an entire part of the OP is about the fact that said constructs are countering Gods, and it's not even adressed here

"you must have come across yakou explanation of taikyoku the one about underwater" ----> why acting like it's a possibility when it's already in the OP?

which is pretty odd in itself.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Then what's the difference? As long as the character is outside being unbounded by the concept of dimensions that grants 1-A rating

You know that your scan is litteraly in the Twilight Beach?

Following your idea, time wouldn't be able to exist here because of being "outside of everything" and all.
In fact, it goes AGAINST the idea that it transcends any possible extension of all concept.

 

[PrinceofPein]

You can be outside of the world's concept while not being 1-A.
Type 4 accausal litteraly operate under a different set of laws. So does Gudou Gods.

Let me quickly address this, I think you should read the accausal page again if anything Marie beach operates under this

Type 5: Causality Transcendence: Characters with this type of Acausality transcend the normal boundaries of cause and effect, existing outside of the causality of a system. Even interacting with them normally may prove virtually impossible.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Let me quickly address this, I think you should read the accausal page again if anything Marie beach operates under this

Type 5: Causality Transcendence: Characters with this type of Acausality transcend the normal boundaries of cause and effect, existing outside of the causality of a system. Even interacting with them normally may prove virtually impossible.

Type 4: Characters with this type of Acausality operate on a different and irregular system of cause and effect than regular causality. This grants them resistance to abilities such as Causality Manipulation, Fate Manipulation, and Precognition, among others.

Marie and the Gods do operate under their own rules. I could argue this now but that's not my intention. I'm just saying that being outside the world and all never was a proof of 1-A.

 

[PrinceofPein]

(I actually wrote this comment last)
You cruelly lack scans and ignore a lot of what is presented as feats. So saying I have "misconceptions" but ignoring feats blatantly going against your explanation isn't very cool.

The only feat that I think actually count is madara blocking the tenmas which I think red gave an explanation for iirc

This part isn't really relevant. Not saying that it is wrong, just that you have to prove it acts that way.

Prove its acts that way after multiple statements saying it does?

They are more what decides of "how the world is", but are the sources of their iteration. Not having a Throne God would lead to the end of the world tho.

Uhhmmm I don't think so, not having a throne god won't lead to the end of the world, more like the current world laws will remain in plac

That is true yeah. Your law rewrite the rest and all. What doesn't make it mere physics is the fact that it is fueled by your Colour/Craving.

What does not make it mere physics is cause it is more than that not anything else

Pre-Throne Area directly contradict this notion. Although the rest is true for each iterations.

No, taikyoku>>> throne

You just said that it was the origin and overwrote stuff, you didn't prove any transcendance.

Origin and disconnects?
"I am the origin of dimensionality, space and everything and I am disconnected from it while having control over it"
Does this explain enough, sorry it may feel like I am ignoring some things you said but what I can say is that I am more about the cosmology as a whole not the plot armour that happened in it

The painting analogy regarding the laws was used to explain the fact that once you extend your law on the world, there's no coming back.

Not just that, in the dies irae anime, it was explicitly stated that the whole of creation is nothing but a canvas for the gods

Soujirou didn't try to cut Ootake tho...? It was Akuro

My bad

Being disconnected isn't the same as transcending on a 1-A level.
Also you seem to forgot stuff like Singularity having time, the fact that Gods were litteraly blocked by higher dimensional stuff, etc...

Singularity time? I hope you don't mean cause it was said that they spend some certain amount of time drilling through it means it has time?

Overall most of it are explanations which ignore the feats presented (or do a big jump of assumption, because you only use the painter analogy which would be one layer of R/F difference), while only bringing a single sentence (which is in the OP and explained) to support it.

Can you give a detailed explanation of the shinza verse cosmology?
i think that should clear anything up

 

[PrinceofPein]

Type 4: Characters with this type of Acausality operate on a different and irregular system of cause and effect than regular causality. This grants them resistance to abilities such as Causality Manipulation, Fate Manipulation, and Precognition, among others.

Marie and the Gods do operate under their own rules. I could argue this now but that's not my intention. I'm just saying that being outside the world and all never was a proof of 1-A.

Yes Marie was said to be "above"

 

[PrinceofPein]

"you must have come across yakou explanation of taikyoku the one about underwater" ----> why acting like it's a possibility when it's already in the OP?

Its not odd, obviously I was referring to people without any knowledge on shinza and not you

 

[QuasiYuri]

Yes Marie was said to be "above"

Nero's scans isn't about "above"
Anyway, gonna respond to your big comment.

 

[QuasiYuri]

The only feat that I think actually count is madara blocking the tenmas which I think red gave an explanation for iirc

Redgrave just said "they say this" without proof. And even then the only counter he's referring to was for one instance, being More. I then explained how the counter was wrong for the scene.

Prove its acts that way after multiple statements saying it does?

What I'm saying is that using real world definition is useless.

Uhhmmm I don't think so, not having a throne god won't lead to the end of the world, more like the current world laws will remain in place.

Masada said so.

前者は理の発生源が消えたことにより、その法則のみが停滞したかたちで残存。管理型の覇道なら人の生き方一一波旬なら滅尽滅相、明星なら完全平和という特性は残るものの、源泉である覇道神がいないので新たな命の生産が起きず、緩やかに(波旬なら速攻ですが)死に絶えていき、最後は誰も残らない。輪廻や永劫回帰という死後再生優先の理ならば、そもそもそういった特性が発現せず、ただ死んだら終わりというもの。

In the former case, the source of reason has disappeared, and only its laws remain in a stagnant form. However, since the source, one that is of Hadou, is not present, the creation of new life will not occur, and the deaths will be gradual (In Hajun's case, it will accelerate), and in the end, no one will be left. If it's a theory that prioritizes rebirth after death, such as Reincarnation or Eternal Regression, then those characteristics don't manifest in the first place, and you just die and that's it.

What does not make it mere physics is cause it is more than that not anything else

Which explained in the OP.

No, taikyoku>>> throne

That's not countering what I'm saying at all. Not that it matters either way.

Origin and disconnects?
"I am the origin of dimensionality, space and everything and I am disconnected from it while having control over it"
Does this explain enough, sorry it may feel like I am ignoring some things you said but what I can say is that I am more about the cosmology as a whole not the plot armour that happened in it

There's no sentence saying this tho. It does say he is disconnected from the laws and all, then you have feats such as even the Singularity having time.

Calling it plot armour without any proof and just because it goes against your idea is is not the best don't you think?

Not just that, in the dies irae anime, it was explicitly stated that the whole of creation is nothing but a canvas for the gods

Which is a statement in the VN too. And it's used to talk about their law expanding.

Singularity time? I hope you don't mean cause it was said that they spend some certain amount of time drilling through it means it has time?

Read the OP.

Can you give a detailed explanation of the shinza verse cosmology?
i think that should clear anything up

You really just need to read the OP.
I'm explaining what part of our current explanation is wrong, you can take the rest as not being a problem unless I'm adressing it.

 

[PrinceofPein]

What I'm saying is that using real world definition is useless.

Yes but it was also the same definition given in the verse, origin of all things

Masada said so.

前者は理の発生源が消えたことにより、その法則のみが停滞したかたちで残存。管理型の覇道なら人の生き方一一波旬なら滅尽滅相、明星なら完全平和という特性は残るものの、源泉である覇道神がいないので新たな命の生産が起きず、緩やかに(波旬なら速攻ですが)死に絶えていき、最後は誰も残らない。輪廻や永劫回帰という死後再生優先の理ならば、そもそもそういった特性が発現せず、ただ死んだら終わりというもの。

In the former case, the source of reason has disappeared, and only its laws remain in a stagnant form. However, since the source, one that is of Hadou, is not present, the creation of new life will not occur, and the deaths will be gradual (In Hajun's case, it will accelerate), and in the end, no one will be left. If it's a theory that prioritizes rebirth after death, such as Reincarnation or Eternal Regression, then those characteristics don't manifest in the first place, and you just die and that's it.

Oh okay

That's not countering what I'm saying at all. Not that it matters either way.

You said what I said about taikyoku contradicts the pre-throne era and I just said taikyoku predates all of existence even the throne itself

There's no sentence saying this tho. It does say he is disconnected from the laws and all, then you have feats such as even the Singularity having time.

There is a sentence, yakou statements said he has control of all things in creation while disconnected from it thats transcendence
where was the singularity shown to have time? I hope its not cause time for drilling to no avail was stated for yato?
Not that it matters anyway featherine even though high outerversal or the voyagers even though not bound by time still have time in a sense and needs certain years to reach something e.g. Marie needs 1000 years to become a creator that does not in anyway say she is bound by time.

Calling it plot armour without any proof and just because it goes against your idea is is not the best don't you think?

I'm not calling it plot armour cause it goes against my idea, I just won't cling to something while ignoring the rest of the verse cosmology

Which is a statement in the VN too. And it's used to talk about their law expanding.

Yes and that creation is just a canvas for the gods to paint
Why do you keep ignoring that?
Like you keep ignoring the fact that the gods transcend creation in a R-F manner

"The Taikyoku of Hadou is, for instance, closely resembling to the act of drawing a picture. You have the Color of your own Law, that is the condition to raise the drawing on the Canvas that is the World."


"Therefore naturally, many concepts that accompany with a picture can be applied. Then for example, under the pressure of the brush on the place where you had recoating it many times over, a hole will appear on the canvas."

Even though this scans are explanation of the singularity it still explains the fact that creation is a canvas for the gods and please dont make statements such as "feats says otherwise while neglecting everything else the verse stands on"

 

[QuasiYuri]

You said what I said about taikyoku contradicts the pre-throne era and I just said taikyoku predates all of existence even the throne itself

Pre-Throne era didn't operate under any Law is the point I'm making. Or at least it didn't at the beginning.

There is a sentence, yakou statements said he has control of all things in creation while disconnected from it thats transcendence

You can control something while being disconnected, all of this without transcendance.
And even if it is, one R/F transcendance isn't enough to get 1-A. Especially when the work itself shows that there's still things in the Singularity or blatant showing like what's in the post.

Not that it matters anyway featherine even though high outerversal or the voyagers even though not bound by time still have time in a sense and needs certain years to reach something e.g. Marie needs 1000 years to become a creator that does not in anyway say she is bound by time.

It's not the same at all. Especially with a world like the Meta World which is all about how you perceive things. So it's a false equivalence and not even what I'm referring to.

I'm not calling it plot armour cause it goes against my idea, I just won't cling to something while ignoring the rest of the verse cosmology

Yet that's what you are doing.

where was the singularity shown to have time? I hope its not cause time for drilling to no avail was stated for yato?

Yes and that creation is just a canvas for the gods to paint
Why do you keep ignoring that?
Like you keep ignoring the fact that the gods transcend creation in a R-F manner

R e a d
t h e
O P

I'm not ignoring it.
And I already adressed this part, but you are ignoring the points I made in the post and more just to give a vision which sees itself as the absolute truth.

"The Taikyoku of Hadou is, for instance, closely resembling to the act of drawing a picture. You have the Color of your own Law, that is the condition to raise the drawing on the Canvas that is the World."

"Therefore naturally, many concepts that accompany with a picture can be applied. Then for example, under the pressure of the brush on the place where you had recoating it many times over, a hole will appear on the canvas."

Even though this scans are explanation of the singularity it still explains the fact that creation is a canvas for the gods and please dont make statements such as "feats says otherwise while neglecting everything else the verse stands on"

It explains how the law rewriting works and how using your law a lot will create a hole to (or inside) the Singularity. Nothing less, nothing less.

Also you are litteraly saying your personnal interpretation of something should be above what Masada himself wrote (feats and explanation alike), which is a big no-no.
You say that Gods are unbound by dimensional stuff, feats in the post shows they are. Feats are part of the cosmology on the same level as any in-verse explanation.

Also there's the fact that what you are showing is cool, but most doesn't even go against my points nor prove 1-A transcendance.

Like the only part conflicting is the big jump in conclusion aka "it means 1-A" when your evidences just aren't proving it and my own scans showing that it isn't.
So it would maybe be better to directly address my points rather than exposing what is already here and known (would also prevent meaningless questions like "u mean ren drilling?" when it's obvious that I'm talking about the evidences already in the OP).
It's just counterproductive so far.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Will reply later, about to go about the daily business again

 

[Darksmash]

This actually would just prove Throne is not 1-A since it calls it “extreme point of all higher dimensions” aka the highest point. It would still mean throne is dimensional. I also don’t think “extreme point” referd to anything more than being in top of

Yea, and if I remember correctly in Muzan's sephiroth tree based cosmology the throne was supposed to be keter, the highest dimension. If we follow the painting analogy, then this shouldn't have been the case, as all the higher dimensions should have been part of the painting contained on the painting cloth at the lowest level of the Singularity.

While Cho Jigen can contextually indicate something beyond dimensions, taking into account the meaning of the word(Ultra dimension) I think it can also be used to indicate special types of higher dimensions in general as well, where the throne is special because it's the highest higher dimension in every Cosmology in the verse.

Would also like to point out that Yakou's barriers being higher dimensional is something I don't really buy so far, so Hajun's era having a 24 dimensional cosmology is up in the air.

Overall though I am neutral, as I believe arguments for both cases can be made. Like iirc the higher dimension in Soujirou vs Akuro was explictly said to be just another phase of physics, while Hadou Gods should be consistently above conceptualisation of physics. But I am also open to an exceptional case where conceptualisation of physics in Shinza Banshou has an upper limit on the amount of higher dimensions.

Anyway, I have exams so I will not participate on this thread much. Coming up with elaborative strategies to cheat is much more important than tiering characters

 

[QuasiYuri]

Yea, and if I remember correctly in Muzan's sephiroth tree based cosmology the throne was supposed to be keter, the highest dimension. If we follow the painting analogy, then this shouldn't have been the case, as all the higher dimensions should have been part of the painting contained on the painting cloth at the lowest level of the Singularity.

Both Keter and Judecca are supposed to be part of the Throne iirc, Masada precised this. And both are considered to be higher dimension in ParaLost yeah.

Would also like to point out that Yakou's barriers being higher dimensional is something I don't really buy so far, so Hajun's era having a 24 dimensional cosmology is up in the air.

24-dimensional barrier wouldn't refer to much more. And it uses the same terminology as the one used to explain how Akuro is an higher dimensional being.

Overall though I am neutral, as I believe arguments for both cases can be made. Like iirc the higher dimension in Soujirou vs Akuro was explictly said to be just another phase of physics, while Hadou Gods should be consistently above conceptualisation of physics. But I am also open to an exceptional case where conceptualisation of physics in Shinza Banshou has an upper limit on the amount of higher dimensions.

Anyway, I have exams so I will not participate on this thread much. Coming up with elaborative strategies to cheat is much more important than tiering characters

Someone give this man all the respect he deserves.

 

[Birgi126]

When your entire tier is about being above any possible higher D stuff, it should be.
You wouldn't give immunity to soul manipulation to someone with a soul.

Anyway gonna answer stuff now.

This is what I meant by “the contradictions”. Entire reasoning behind 1-A Shinza is being above higher dimensions no matter how many there are, so them being called Higher-D outright debunks the reasoning behind it.

 

[Ovy7]

Just wanted to say that being above any and all dimensions period isn't 1A, but High 1A or higher (from what I've been told), so being stated to be higher dimensional doesn't automatically disqualify someone from being 1A or above in our new Tiering System, as 1A can be reached by transcending a dimensioned structure and all expansions of it ("expansions" here being from like 3 dimensions to infinity dimensions, but in the terms of our system, it would only be the smallest infinity -Aleph 0-, so someone from a higher infinity of dimensions would be both 1A and also higher dimensional). If the Shinza cosmology can vary in dimensionality, but the Gods/Throne is above it no matter what, then that should probably qualify them for 1A IMO, as they are above the structure on which those dimensions are defined/contained in.

Just my 2 cents...

 

[QuasiYuri]

Just wanted to say that being above any and all dimensions perions to infinity dimensions, but in the terms of our system, d isn't 1A, but High 1A or higher (from what I've been told), so being stated to be higher dimensional doesn't automatically disqualify someone from being 1A or above in our new Tiering System, as 1A can be reached by transcending a dimensioned structure and all expansions of it ("expansions" here being from like 3 dimensioit would only be the smallest infinity -Aleph 0-, so someone from a higher infinity of dimensions would be both 1A and also higher dimensional). If the Shinza cosmology can vary in dimensionality, but the Gods/Throne is above it no matter what, then that should probably qualify them for 1A IMO.

I don't really like things based on "from what I heard" tbh. Also BDE still exist.

Although in the current case, what matters is the fact that the argument about them being unbound on a 1-A scale and all doesn't work if the work shows otherwise.
And it does.

Also I remember a statement about how Mercurius changes with the Throne (cosmology became a multiverse) would make it incompatible for previous generations or something. Only reason I didn't bring it in the thread is because I'm still searching for it.

As a side note: if it's true that it would mean High 1-A or tier 0 (which is something I don't remember at all), the fact that "all expansions" is decided to be "just" 1-A for no actual reason is very odd.
But that's another debate in itself.

 

[Ovy7]

Well, I've mostly tried to explain the problem in the context of our tiering system.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Well, I've mostly tried to explain the problem in the context of our tiering system.

Yeah I got the idea, but it would extent to much more than just Shinza and turn into a new debate.
For this case, if you are above every expansion of something you aren't supposed to be affected by it.
It would be like a Witch Domain thing blocking Creator or TLOI being confined by stories like Akuto's for example.

 

[Ovy7]

That's not really what I meant, but better not derail this like the last thread.

 

[QuasiYuri]

That's not really what I meant, but better not derail this like the last thread.

Yeah, we can bring this in PM if needed anyway.

 

[Infera28]

what is summary of downgrade so far? any point was debuked or changed?

 

[QuasiYuri]

what is summary of downgrade so far? any point was debuked or changed?

May just be my opinion, but most of what the opposition gives is more like small scans and big explanations. While the opposite would be what's needed. There's a lot of small mistakes which could be put as inattention one (like mistranslating a name, not seeing a kanji, or misattributing stuff), which make the need of more proof -big enough to encompass the context at least a little- all the more necessary.

The fact that a part isn't even countering the points in the OP (or even just saying things the OP said too) doesn't help much either.

Although I guess the opinion of a neutral party to answer you would be the best.

(Side note: I may not be able to comment too much in the following 2 to 4 days, so I'll likely respond at specific times even if I connect to check things).

 

[KingPin0422]

I don't have much to say in response to Yuri, but I'll ask around for a source for that text I posted. I'm going to feel like an idiot if it turns out to be fake.

Regarding the dimensional stuff, I acknowledged the idea of Madara's 24-D barriers not being legitimately 1-B, but I don't think that's been conclusively decided yet. Anyway, it would help a lot if someone gathered evidence for the structure of Muzan's multiverse: how large it is, whether or not the Sephiroth embody literal dimensions, and of course, where the Throne stands relative to the Sephiroth. We can figure things out from there, perhaps.

 

[QuasiYuri]

I don't have much to say in response to Yuri, but I'll ask around for a source for that text I posted. I'm going to feel like an idiot if it turns out to be fake.

Regarding the dimensional stuff, I acknowledged the idea of Madara's 24-D barriers not being legitimately 1-B, but I don't think that's been conclusively decided yet. Anyway, it would help a lot if someone gathered evidence for the structure of Muzan's multiverse: how large it is, whether or not the Sephiroth embody literal dimensions, and of course, where the Throne stands relative to the Sephiroth. We can figure things out from there, perhaps.

From the VFB:

Do higher worlds such as the Sefirot Tree and the Abyss still exist in the world of the Third Heaven and beyond? Also, are they the dominated areas of the Throne? Or are they Singularities?

The thing you call as the Sefirot Tree is equivalent to Taikyoku in that they are paths which lead to higher places. The Crown (Keter) and Judecca can be called the Top and Bottom of the Taikyoku Throne (太極座/Taikyouku-za).

Now that I think of it it's even more evidence of being likened to dimensions.
Would have brought PL stuff but I can't access the files rn.

 

[QuasiYuri]

I also got this, going against the notion that a God is above any possible changes of the cosmology:

作中で波旬が歴代神格の理を投げて攻撃してましたが、他の2~5代目の神格も前任者の技を使ったりできるんですか?

できますよ。

あの手のことが一番上手いのが五代目の黄昏。彼女の覇道共存能力がその究極系。

逆に一切できないのが四代目。彼は自分の代で神座システムを大幅に変えたので、前任者たちと相性が悪いのです。

波旬はまあ、本編でも言ったように塵投げてるようなものですね。前任者に対する理解も尊敬もまったくないので、威力だけは再現できても中身スカスカなんで文字通りの形骸です。

In the main story, Hajun threw the Laws of the previous Gods to attack, but can the second to fifth Gods also use their predecessor's techniques?

They can.

The one who is the best at that kind of thing is the fifth generation, the Twilight (黄昏/Marie). Her ability of Hadou Coexistence is its ultimate system.

Conversely, the one who can't do it at all is the Fourth Generation. He changed the Divine Throne System (神座システム) so drastically in his generation that it doesn't work well with his predecessors.

Hajun, well, as said in the main story, he's throwing them out like dust. He has no understanding or respect for his predecessors at all, so even if he can recreate their powers, its contents are hollow due to being a literal skeleton.

So Merc changed things to the point of becoming incompatible with the previous gods.
But what is the nature of this change?

「その者、特異な存在なり。これまでの座は、総て前任者の理に対する歪ひずみとして発生し、善悪の交代でしかなかった状態に終止符を打つ」

"He is a singular being, one that brought an end to the previous Thrones, which had all occurred as distortions to the reasoning of the predecessors, and were nothing more than alternations of good and evil."

男が有する特殊性の中でも最たるものは、彼の渇望が時間軸を無視していたこと。何某かの経験によって強烈な想いを抱き、そこから神域の念を発生させるという原因と結果が入れ替わっている」

"The most significant peculiarity of the man was that his craving defied the time axis, and causality was reversed: some experience gave him intense feelings, from which he generated those thoughts in the divine realm."

「すなわち、すでに神座にある己を知覚したからこそ、そこに至った。それまで単一時間、単一宇宙のみで構成されていた座の機構を、破壊し書き換えたのが彼である」

"In other words, he had reached that point because he had already perceived himself on the Throne. He is the one who destroyed and rewrote the mechanism of the Throne, which at that point consisted of only a single timeline and universe."

「現在過去未来の内包、多元的並行宇宙の同時掌握。それを成したこの男は、過去三代を上回る最大の支配領域を獲得した中興の祖と断言できる」

Simultaneously seizing the present, past and future, and multiple parallel universes (多元的並行宇宙), this man founded an era in which he has acquired the largest territory of control over the past three generations."

「簡潔に述べるならば、三代目の座にとってこの男は、別の時間軸と宇宙から飛来してきた怪物に他ならない」

"To put it simply, for the Third Throne, this man was nothing more than a monster from another timeline and universe."

「原因と結果を入れ替えたことによって発生した彼の宇宙は、歴代で類を見ないほど摩訶不思議なものと化す」

"His universe, generated by causality's flipping, is more mysterious than any other in history."

It is the introduction of the idea of multiversity, time travel and causality shenanigans in the world.

Unlike what others are claiming (often without proof), you have direct explanations of how the world changing actually is influencing Gods and the Throne A LOT, to the point of creating incompatibility between Merc and the 3 previous laws from the sheer changes of the world.

If Gods and Throne were naturally above all extensions regardless of what happen, none of these explanations would exist at all.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I also got this, going against the notion that a God is above any possible changes of the cosmology:

作中で波旬が歴代神格の理を投げて攻撃してましたが、他の2~5代目の神格も前任者の技を使ったりできるんですか?

できますよ。

あの手のことが一番上手いのが五代目の黄昏。彼女の覇道共存能力がその究極系。

逆に一切できないのが四代目。彼は自分の代で神座システムを大幅に変えたので、前任者たちと相性が悪いのです。

波旬はまあ、本編でも言ったように塵投げてるようなものですね。前任者に対する理解も尊敬もまったくないので、威力だけは再現できても中身スカスカなんで文字通りの形骸です。

In the main story, Hajun threw the Laws of the previous Gods to attack, but can the second to fifth Gods also use their predecessor's techniques?

They can.

The one who is the best at that kind of thing is the fifth generation, the Twilight (黄昏/Marie). Her ability of Hadou Coexistence is its ultimate system.

Conversely, the one who can't do it at all is the Fourth Generation. He changed the Divine Throne System (神座システム) so drastically in his generation that it doesn't work well with his predecessors.

Hajun, well, as said in the main story, he's throwing them out like dust. He has no understanding or respect for his predecessors at all, so even if he can recreate their powers, its contents are hollow due to being a literal skeleton.

So Merc changed things to the point of becoming incompatible with the previous gods.
But what is the nature of this change?

「その者、特異な存在なり。これまでの座は、総て前任者の理に対する歪ひずみとして発生し、善悪の交代でしかなかった状態に終止符を打つ」

"He is a singular being, one that brought an end to the previous Thrones, which had all occurred as distortions to the reasoning of the predecessors, and were nothing more than alternations of good and evil."

男が有する特殊性の中でも最たるものは、彼の渇望が時間軸を無視していたこと。何某かの経験によって強烈な想いを抱き、そこから神域の念を発生させるという原因と結果が入れ替わっている」

"The most significant peculiarity of the man was that his craving defied the time axis, and causality was reversed: some experience gave him intense feelings, from which he generated those thoughts in the divine realm."

「すなわち、すでに神座にある己を知覚したからこそ、そこに至った。それまで単一時間、単一宇宙のみで構成されていた座の機構を、破壊し書き換えたのが彼である」

"In other words, he had reached that point because he had already perceived himself on the Throne. He is the one who destroyed and rewrote the mechanism of the Throne, which at that point consisted of only a single timeline and universe."

「現在過去未来の内包、多元的並行宇宙の同時掌握。それを成したこの男は、過去三代を上回る最大の支配領域を獲得した中興の祖と断言できる」

Simultaneously seizing the present, past and future, and multiple parallel universes (多元的並行宇宙), this man founded an era in which he has acquired the largest territory of control over the past three generations."

「簡潔に述べるならば、三代目の座にとってこの男は、別の時間軸と宇宙から飛来してきた怪物に他ならない」

"To put it simply, for the Third Throne, this man was nothing more than a monster from another timeline and universe."

「原因と結果を入れ替えたことによって発生した彼の宇宙は、歴代で類を見ないほど摩訶不思議なものと化す」

"His universe, generated by causality's flipping, is more mysterious than any other in history."

It is the introduction of the idea of multiversity, time travel and causality shenanigans in the world.

Unlike what others are claiming (often without proof), you have direct explanations of how the world changing actually is influencing Gods and the Throne A LOT, to the point of creating incompatibility between Merc and the 3 previous, who would see him as a true monster because of how he revolutionned the universe.

If Gods and Throne were naturally above all extensions regardless of what happen, none of these explanations would exist at all.

Would you like to tell everyone here how this even proves anything, like dude wtf I mean I just got home decided to check the updates and to you the previous gods thinking Mercurius is a monster means they are not above extensions done to the throne??

Lol your understanding of the cosmology is just extremely shallow nothing more at this point I dont even know what to say.

From what you just used to defend the claim that the gods are not above the changes cause merc law was incompatible with the former it makes me wonder if you even get it at all

How does this wall of text or explanation prove that they are not above the extensions done to the cosmology?

 

[PrinceofPein]

Or hajun unable to use the laws of the other gods properly cause of incompatibility of his craving means he is not above the extensions?
Somehow incompatibility with your predecessors means you are not above the changes to the cosmology?

I see why people give up here honestly

 

[QuasiYuri]

Would you like to tell everyone here how this even proves anything, like dude wtf I mean I just got home decided to check the updates and to you the previous gods thinking Mercurius is a monster means they are not above extensions done to the throne??

Lol your understanding of the cosmology is just extremely shallow nothing more at this point I dont even know what to say.

How does this wall of text or explanation prove that they are not above the extensions done to the cosmology?

Your lack of actual reading is showing more and more.

I didn't say that it was them considering him as a monster, I put in italic what was relevant in first scan, then explained what it refers to, then explained how it is yet another point against the idea of them being above all expansions.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Your lack of actual reading is showing more and more.

I didn't say that it was them considering him as a monster, I put in italic what was relevant in first scan, then explained what it refers to, then explained how it is yet another point against the idea of them being above all expansions.

Your lack of understanding of the cosmology is also showing honestly, how does incompatibility with law of your predecessors = you are not above extensions done to the cosmos?

 

[QuasiYuri]

Or hajun unable to use the laws of the other gods properly cause of incompatibility of his craving means he is not above the extensions?
Somehow incompatibility with your predecessors means you are not above the changes to the cosmology?

I see why people give up here honestly

Hajun isn't a part of my argument at all.

What's important is the nature of this incompatibility.

Give up, then.
I mean between questions already answered by OP, the fact that you yourself said you wouldn't counter the points raised + the lack of scans in comparison to the amount of explanation without any backup; things aren't advancing much.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Conversely, the one who can't do it at all is the Fourth Generation. He changed the Divine Throne System (神座システム) so drastically in his generation that it doesn't work well with his predecessors.

Or is this not the point you are referring to?

How does this mean they are not above changes done to the cosmology?