Divine Dimensional Dance 2nd round: Shinza Gods downgrade

[QuasiYuri]

Being told that I'm downplaying the verse and that I'm an ignorant when the 1-A side argues Mukei changing laws or Awaumi with Taiji should be enough to put at least some doubt regarding the validity of their deductions.

 

[PrinceofPein]

He doesn't. Were you talking about K3 and Shinza's tier without knowing the subject since the beginning?

He does the value is 2, he got weaker the farther he was to yato, but he still has taikyoku

 

[QuasiYuri]

He does the value is 2, he got weaker the farther he was to yato, but he still has taikyoku

He litteraly is said to lack godhood entirely. 2 was Yakou's value.

Unless now Keishirou and the likes scales to Taiji in base.

 

[PrinceofPein]

He litteraly is said to lack godhood entirely. 2 was Yakou's value.

Probably I think I remembered the statement about him losing his god hood cause he lacks a strong connection with Yato, and his outside the range of Yato's law, which strips Awaumi of its passive "Time Armor" effect, unlike those in the Yatsukahagi.

but I'm sure of his taikyoku value of 2

 

[KingPin0422]

Not gonna lie, this is turning bad. We really, really need to stop going back and forth over the same points, because neither side is going to change their mind like this. It's best if we leave it up to the staff to decide which interpretation makes more sense.

Also, I find both of the summaries given to be at least somewhat biased. Might just be me, though.

 

[Antvasima]

Note: I realized that I use "however" a lot. It actually just means that it is a counter to counter.

Also I may forget a thing or two, so don't hesitate to tell me if you see such thing.

On the downgrade side​

-The argument about Taiji being 1-A is that since it created everything + can rewrite it and that their users are stated to be disconnected from existence/laws, it means that it holds a 1-A transcendance with absolutely every single thing in the world, including dimensions, time, etc... Something which isn't actually stated and is instead pure deduction.

However, this notion is contradicted by a lot of things:

-Akuro, a god, is called higher dimensional in an explanation about the nature of higher dimensions, even using the same terminology as others instances (also denying this feat as wrong/unknowledgeable/metaphorical/etc... is denying the only proof of dimensions being higher infinities we use so far).

The opposition answered this by saying that it was one of the many metaphor Shinza used.

However in that case it is explaining why Akuro couldn't be harmed and gave clear explanation regarding the fact that he was of a higher dimension, using the terminology K3 uses for them.

-3 Gods' laws were blocked by Madara's dimensional barriers, which use the aforementionned terminology + are already accepted as higher dimensional

Opposition answered by stating that Yakou weakened them, using him calling Morei's true name as a proof or saying that they weren't actual higher dimensions.

However Morei's scenes are either another fight or after the scene given, making them unrelated.
While them not being actual higher D is contradicted by them using the exact same terminology as the ones above + being already accepted as such.

Another argument is that since Yakou had Taiji, it means that the dimensions were being boosted by said Taiji.

The counter to this one is that Yakou's special thing with his Mukei is that he CAN'T change things, only summon them. So no boost here.
Not to mention that the scan used just say "it uses more than last time". But he like... already got his Taiji value uped last time too. Definitely nothing changing.

-Mibu slash was revealed to be a higher dimensional thing, which can even cut Tenmas

Was argued by other side to not be litteral, but it is a clear explanation/revelation of the true nature of the distorsion, and it being called higher dimensional right before being said to be able to harm Tenma is

-This one is very minor, but only those with godhood can understand complex geometric space, which is what prevent others from reaching Taiji and all

Opposition answered that it didn't mean Taiji was limited to this. It isn't wrong, since it is just a supporting evidence.

-The Throne's dimension is one among many in Paradise Lost, with others regular higher dimensions being a pathway to it (despite 1-A being unreachable no matter how much higher D are stacked up).

-The Twilight Beach is a world of frozen time, despite Gods/Singularity/Throne/etc... not being supposed to be reached by any form of concept according to the other side.

Opposition said that it was wrong because it was said that this world lacked the concept of time. Which is actually a misread, because it only stated that it lacked the flow of time. Since time is, not flowing.

Statements of Throne lacking the concept of time was also used, and it is legit to an extent, since it refers to it not caring about Merc law shenanigans. However same law is affecting everyone.

And statements of transcendance over time, which are pretty vague and from the english version (which added some of these statements despite not existing in the original).

-Mercurius revolutionning the world by "breaking some concepts" and implanting the idea of Multiverse is considered as a change so big it makes him unable to use the laws of his predecessors because of a lack in compatibility. Which wouldn't happen if they weren't affected by any changes done to it.

Opposition argument is that it talks about messing with the Throne system, making it unrelated to the world.

However it would show that the Throne was unable to apply an extension of the world (idea of Multiverse) by itself, despite being supposed to also be above every single extension of it.

-If it was inherently superior, then things like Briah, which are mere downscaled emanation, would make the user a fulll 1-A guy.

Opposition answered that we accept Briah as 1-A hax. Which is true but not what the other side meant. The argument here is that they should be full 1-A guy and not just have their imposition being 1-A. Although this one isn't too important

As such, downgrade side think that something like 1-B is more accurate than 1-A.

On the 1-A side​

-Taiji is stated to be the origin of everything, concepts, laws, reality included.

Opposition argument is that it isn't 100%, since Pre-Throne Area lacked the influence of a Taiji and all.

However it doesn't matter much anyway, and Taiji is still the origin of what's in the current iteration of creation.

It doesn't mean 1-A transcendance over it.

-Taiji in philosophy is 1-A, and Taiji in Shinza is similar.

Opposition point is that we don't use real life philosophy stuff and all to upgrade a verse. Otherwise verses with Brahman would be 1-A.

-It is stated that Taiji fills all of creation and allows you to manipulate it, bend things to your law

Opposition argument is that it is law rewritting, nothing 1-A.

-It is said that Gods and coe transcend reality and are disconnected for the laws of the world. They are also stated to see it as a canvas on which they can paint.

Opposition is that you can do the same by merely having one level of transcendance, not a 1-A one.

Same for the canvas statement, which is either referring to the fact that their laws are overwritting stuff, which is considered as "painting" with their law.
And things about transcending "the picture" are used to say that they are higher dimensional beings, as shown with Akuro.

-Singularity is beyond creation, outside of laws and immune to its change.

Opposition argument is that the scan actually says that nothing that happen in Singularity will affect creation. Which prove disconnection, but no 1-A transcendance.

-1-A dimensions are a thing.

Except that 1-A for Shinza is based on the fact that they are supposed to be above every single extension of said dimensions. Obviously you can't both get a rating for not being touched by water when you get it splashed to your face several time in a week.

Another point of the opposition related to the whole stuff is that some points are based on 1-A being a given (mainly Yakou barriers somehow being 1-A because it "blocked a 1-A being"), which is a backward logic.

For these reasons, the person on this side think that 1-A should say

Either way​

I would greatly recommand reading at very least one page (like really) or the major arguments of each , because while a summary is cool and all, it obviously isn't the same as a 4 pages thread.
I also didn't put the scans in this summary based on that idea, so there's that.

Just a recommandation tho, I can understand why one wouldn't want to read a big debate and all.

Everything's left to staff judgment now.

This is my summary: (Yuri added one or two new ponts in his summary, so I answered them too)

Creation:

All concepts simple or complex are governed and obeyed by near infinite laws

Higher dimensions in the series are part of the phenomenon

夜行は森羅万象を司る座に達しているため、これは厳密なところ異能ではない。単に宇宙の物理現象ならば何でも出来るということであり、世界法則を歪める異能とはまったく逆の部類と言える。

Taiji:

There is near infinite laws but compared to Taiji, they are mere physics. Taiji fills all creation and makes your desired creation

Taiji is source of all reality, cosmos, laws, dualities, phenomenon, everything and origin of all things. This was later reaffirmed by saying that Mercury was the ruler of any known phenomenon

Taiji grants control over creation and also makes you disconned from all things in creation even laws, physics and concepts. It was said that picture can't hurt reality regardless of potency and all creation is picture to gods even concepts. So cleary taiji is external to all creation and every extension of it

Gods are embodiment of their laws (taiji)

Gods transcended anything and everything, they are highest form existence and ultimate transcendence. It has been stated several times that only way for making a law void is transcending it and god's law is absolute and governs over all laws. So they cleary transcended all laws

Taiji also governs over all conceptual dualities

この世にある全ての二元的な現象、概念が流転し万華鏡の如く形を変える綾模様の大曼荼羅。絶対的な法のもと敵対するものが定められたその空間は宇宙の縮図、超級規模の織物。

The large Weave patterened Mandala where all the dualistic phenomenon and concept in this world shifts and changes like a Kaleidoscope. The extent of super fabric is the microcosm of the universe, in which the opposition (dualities) is to be determined by the absolute law.

Singularity is beyond creation and immune to all changes in creation

世界に穿たれた孔の中、事象へ影響を及ぼさない無色の空間。

座の支配、世界法則に属さない場所の総称。

特異点で起きた事象は原則として、世界に影響を及ぼさないので当代の神が座で殺害されても世界の魂が道連れにならない。

Singularity is created by the gods, they can affect and even destroy it, and both the singularity and the gods are out of creation/picture and have similar existence so god scales to singularity

Gods are immutable and they can't be changed no matter what

神は不変であり、その在り方を変える事で神に至る者はあれど、神になってから変節する者は基本的にいない。
何があっても終始一貫して不変であり、人のような情動はない。

And gudou god is most indepedent life form in all of existence

歩く特異点とも形容され、万象における最も自立した生命体に他ならない。

Gods are throne masters and throne transcended anything

いと高き所に坐したまま総てを見通し人知の及ばぬ力を振るう何者かがいる、総てを超越して達する至高の座。

They also transcended space-time and concept of time doesn't exist in throne. Time is meager to gods

It was stated in japanese too

座には時間の概念が存在しない。

その理は 永劫回帰。端的に言えば「リセット」。彼が座に在る限り、彼の望まぬ終わりを迎えれば全ては零へと立ち戻る。 彼の 渇望は 「自分の望む結末以外は認めない」「やり直したい」 死の瞬間に「こんな結末は嫌だ」と流出を行い、神となって過去に戻った彼は、 永き時を生きた後に、自らの 自滅因子であるラインハルトと喰い合い自滅する。 その際にまた「こんな結末は嫌だ」と流出を行う…という無限ループになっている。 まるで卵が先かニワトリが先かのパラドックスのようだが、座に時間の概念がなく、 彼の渇望は時間軸を無視したものであったため、こんな奇妙なことが起こっている。 既知の世界と自らの生に飽いているが、その既知の中で出会ったマルグリット(マリィ)に「唯一愛した既知」と恋し、彼女に新世界の女神たる資質を見出した彼は「彼女の胸に抱かれて死ぬ」ことを自らの終焉と定め行動を開始する。

Even Ferederica transcended concepts of space-time and she wasn't a god

拾い上げたそこらに落ちているモノを振り回した程度でクレーターを作って星の地形を変え、果ては慣性の法則や時空間の概念すら無視する。

Even one of the non-god characters was able to reproduce all concepts and phenomena

』とも真の機能はマシュヤグが惹かれた存在の強い願望を反映する形で複製を造り出す事、製作者であるクワルナフの権能の縮小版とも言えるものである。
物質のみならず概念、現象と言った曖昧なものまで機能の対象であるが、創り出された「なにか」は「男と女」や「幼年期と成人」など、上下左右が反転した鏡像のように元となったモノと決定的な差異を持つ。

So gods cleary transcended every extension of reality, concepts, laws, and phenomena and they are disconned from all their extensions

Debunking downgrade arguments:

Gods are higher dimensional

The higher dimensional was used allegorically several times in the series and shinza is known for using flowery language

So idk why term higher dimension suddenly isn't metaphorical anymore

higher dimensional can be referred to higher existence, consciousness, plane, massive beyond and massively stronger too. Higher dimension also can be 1-A dimension. Dimension is defined by size and there is high 1-A and tier 0 sizes in our tiering system let alone 1-A

Another phase of physics was used for higher dimension

Another phase of physics can be metaphysics, pataphysics, some incomprehensible form of 1-A physics, metaphor and...

It also doesn't make sense too because it countless times stated taiji is source of all laws, transcends all laws and even weaker abilities in series aren't bounded by physics

Yakou's 24D barrier blocked gods

Instead of translating the whole fight, only incomplete parts of it are translated and sent in the thread, which is not reliable at all and pretty suspect and out of context. Sleepy also debunked this and unlike downgrade side sleepy already read whole novels in japanese


https://vsbattles.com/threads/divine-dimensionnal-dance-shinza-bansho-gods-downgrade.115180/post-3700977

https://vsbattles.com/threads/divine-dimensionnal-dance-shinza-bansho-gods-downgrade.115180/post-3701050

https://vsbattles.com/threads/divine-dimensionnal-dance-shinza-bansho-gods-downgrade.115180/post-3701163

But however yakou already had a taiji value 2, only colorless

彼は自分が何故太極をもつのか、さらに十より前の自分の過去をよく知らないなど、一般人であれば当然に疑念に思うであろう問題を抱えているが、彼自身はそのことに全く頓着していない。

初伝 太極 2

Singularity also is beyond all creation, all laws and made of colorless taiji

世界に穿たれた孔の中、事象へ影響を及ぼさない無色の空間。

It was even said that events at singularity will not affect creation

座の支配、世界法則に属さない場所の総称。

And singularity is outside of all laws

特異点で起きた事象は原則として、世界に影響を及ぼさないので当代の神が座で殺害されても世界の魂が道連れにならない。

Even death of gods in singularity doesn't effect creation

So singularity is beyond all changes in creation same as Yakou's taiji

It was also said that the evolution of Yakou's taiji suddenly amped dimensions 10 times, so the dimensions and Taiji were connected.

彼の拳を止めるために、二回目の十倍以上に練り上げて、二十四の次元断層を使用。

Time existed in twilight beach

It also stated concept of time doesn't exist in twilight beach and time is frozen in beach. So it was pretty vague, metaphorical and also could be referred to lack existence of time too. Clearly, to say that time is frozen and that there is no concept of time flow can mean that there is no time

And twilight was only a small colored part of singularity, created and colored by Mercurius for Marie. In its core Singularity is a completely blank slate. devoid of all laws and reason

座の支配、世界法則に属さない場所の総称。どの理にも属さない無色の世界。

So it can't have time. Throne is located in bottom of singularity and throne is devoid of the concept of time

It was also stated that gods transcended space-time

Even Ferederica transcended concepts of space-time and she wasn't a god

拾い上げたそこらに落ちているモノを振り回した程度でクレーターを作って星の地形を変え、果ては慣性の法則や時空間の概念すら無視する。

1-A time is a thing too

Mercurius revolutionning the world by "breaking some concepts" and implanting the idea of Multiverse is considered as a change so big it makes him unable to use the laws of his predecessors because of a lack in compatibility. Which wouldn't happen if they weren't affected by any changes done to it.

Breaking concepts never was mentioned and he destroyed and rewrote whole throne's system and it effected him not creation. Throne is beyond creation

Downgrade side's misconception is that the construction of the multiverse affected God, while it was clearly stated that God destroyed and rewrote the Throne system and it wasn't mere creating a multiverse in throne. If anything throne's system should effect gods not multiverse because throne and gods have similar existence yet multiverse is mere picture

すなわち、すでに神座にある己を知覚したからこそ、そこに至った。それまで単一時間、単一宇宙のみで構成されていた座の機構を、破壊し書き換えたのが彼である」

Yakou's Taiji could only manifest the phenomenon

Whether colored or colorless, or with different abilities and functions, it was still Taiji, and we have been arguing all along that Taiji is a 1-A nature. So if it turns out that Taiji is 1-A, these dimensions were made by someone with 1-A power. Taiji is fundamentally 1-A in both shinza and philsophy. It does not matter if it is a manipulation of laws or reality or phenomena or weather or elements or jungles. A person who is 1-A, if the only ability he shows is the manipulation of pebbles, then he is still 1-A and it is 1-A pebble manip. All it takes is to mix the pebble manip or pebbles with a infinitesimal bit of its own power.

Taiji is fundamentally 1-A:

Taikyoku--Origin of all things in Onmyoudou (Way of Yin and Yang), concept pointing to the nucleus of the universe.

To draw power and grasp the knowledge of everything, the source of all phenomena and the origin of all things. To see all and do all.

So it does not matter if one Taiiji can change the rules and the other can use the phenomena or change the weather. Mixing them with infinitesimal bit of taiji makes them 1-A too

And evolution of Yakou's taiji afffected his phenomenon so they were connected to taiji

彼の拳を止めるために、二回目の十倍以上に練り上げて、二十四の次元断層を使用。

Opposition argument is that it isn't 100%, since Pre-Throne Area lacked the influence of a Taiji and all.

Taiji existed in pre-throne era. Mithra from pre-throne era had taiji, her taiji is known as dualism and through using it she created her creation

And It is like saying that if the Big Bang did not exist at one era but made everything in next era, then the Big Bang would not be the creator of everything and we should downgrade big bang to wall level

Opposition point is that we don't use real life philosophy stuff and all to upgrade a verse. Otherwise verses with Brahman would be 1-A.

My goal was just to show the many Taiji similarities between Shinza and the philsophy, and In my opinion i succeeded in proving that they are exactly the same.

@AKM sama @Promestein @DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality @SomebodyData @The_real_cal_howard @Dragonmasterxyz @Celestial_Pegasus @Soldier_Blue @Saikou_The_Lewd_King @Andytrenom @DarkDragonMedeus @Wokistan @Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Ogbunabali @Abstractions @WeeklyBattles @Colonel_Krukov @Shadowbokunohero @Mindovin @Jvando @SamanPatou @Just_a_Random_Butler @Dino_Ranger_Black @Gemmysaur @JustSomeWeirdo @LordGriffin1000 @Theglassman12 @Crabwhale @Eficiente @GyroNutz @DarkGrath @The_Wright_Way @Moritzva @Firestorm808 @DemonGodMitchAubin @Everything12 @Duedate8898 @Planck69 @KingTempest @KingPin0422 @First_Witch @Ovy7 @Ionliosite @Agnaa

We would still greatly appreciate if some of you would be willing to evaluate the above arguments, as this discussion is very important and going around in circles. Thanks in advance for any help

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

We DK what Awaumi’s Taikyoku is. And the value of 2 is Yakou’s.

Him having a poor connection to Yatou and leaving the range of his Hadou is legit. But the 2 Taikyoku value is not his but Yakou’s.

 

[Antvasima]

My apologies to KingPin0422 and any other staff who are already helping out here for tagging them.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

Also, I’m just gonna disconnect from this thread because it’s gone 5 pages now, and counting possibly, and since I’m on track somewhat with K3 and planning my own stuff, there’s very limited stuff here for me to do that I’m not prepped much to even contribute even if I’m on a neutral stance to all this.

 

[PrinceofPein]

We DK what Awaumi’s Taikyoku is. And the value of 2 is Yakou’s.

Him having a poor connection to Yatou and leaving the range of his Hadou is legit. But the 2 Taikyoku value is not his but Yakou’s.

Oh okay, my bad then

 

[Promestein]

I don't know why I'm being repeatedly @ed over a verse I know next to nothing about.

 

[Infera28]

Based on...? Someone who doesn't care about making profiles right saying this is kinda rubbing me the wrong way.

Because you say that creating and being beyond all reality, concepts, laws, conceptual dualities is just a layer of transcendence which is a nice joke in itself and everyone laughs to it, even though it has been said many times that the gods are completely outside of them and aren't effected by them no matter what. being too strict about everything even more than moderators and yet instantly accepting 1-A nasuverse which was using exactly same arguments as us, blatantly lying about my translations, singularity and the connection of the barriers of yakou to taiji, using headcanon about a series of feats such as Mercurius's throne, taiji in zero-era, ignoring my claims about dualities, similarity between taiji in shinza and philsophy, time in twilight beach and full disconnection between singularity and picture

Commented on page 2 or 3.

And then he said that after reading the second and third pages and the rest of the content, I will give my final opinion and also at that time, I had not sent anything yet

Assumption.
Also I could say the opposite, which is that japanese people who read the novel actually agree with me.

How is this assumption, when he had all the time, oppose your claims and address the claims as misconceptions?

Assumption again. How are they "second-hand information"?

Because I spend all my time trying to tell you things that everyone who has read the novel should know

If you really finished the novel, record a video from extras and other parts of novel and send it

These days, being blocked by dimensions and stated to be higher dimensionnal as an explanation of your nature mean you are fully transcendant over them in any shape, size, and form.
Childish game, uh.

Yakou's dimensions were completely connected to Taiji, and even evolution of Taiji made them 10 times stronger, and Taiji is fundamentally 1-A. It was even said that Yaku was on throne beyond the creation and the same thing was said about those who had a colored taiji but continue to downplay verse

Also continue to throwing dimensions dimensions around when we can have 1-A dimensions, dimensions have been used allegorically many times and can give other meanings such as higher existence, higher consciouness, higher plane, massively stronger and massively beyond as well

 

[Gemstic]

Yakou can't change the nature of things, your own quote explains it. For example, if I summon a water gun with his power, it'll still stay a water gun.

Of course, it'll remain a 'water gun' in appearance and it would function like one too, but it's still a water gun that is manifested by his power. The fact that 'his power works completely different from those that are meant to distort the (physical) laws of the world', has nothing to do with the metaphysical thing (Taikyoku) that is used in the manifestation process itself. Are you, by any chance, assuming that the ability of 'manifestation' is no different from 'summoning'? It sounds odd, unless the verse has shown that both of them function in exactly the same manner. After all, 'manifestation' involves the power of the user in the formation of something, while it isn't the case with plain 'summoning'.

Furthermore:

単に宇宙の物理現象ならば何でも出来るということであり、世界法則を歪める異能とはまったく逆の部類と言える。

The statement clearly says that he can realize any physical phenomena of the universe, though his power is different from one that is meant to distort the laws of the world.

Now, just because a power doesn't specifically target X, doesn't mean that it's incapable of bringing about a result that still affects X in some way. For example, if Person A uses Probability Manipulation in such a way that Person B dies in one of the possible futures without any further involvement from them, it'd be completely different from an ability that directly kills the latter on the spot (e.g., shooting bursts of energy [Energy Projection]). But, the fact remains that Person A can still affect (kill) Person B with their probability manipulation, even if it happens indirectly.

Hence, there's even less reason to assume that all Yakou can do is 'summon things in exactly the same state as they are supposed to be in the universe'.

Taking it from another point of view, it wouldn't mean that the speaker can lift everything. I was more saying it that way.

True, but it doesn't change the fact that the speaker can lift multiple things, even if not 'everything'. So, there's no reason to assume that contradictions (related to time), except for the one stated in the scan, aren't possible at the Throne.

 

[Infera28]

Anyway, I'll unwatch thread because Yuri always says let's wait for the moderators, but then starts arguing with the normal members and moderators again. Because he can't accept 1-A shinza no matter what. Probably even bureaucrats and masada himself can't convince him

And I do not have enough time to argue with him for hundreds hours. This is going nowehere

And I believe that I have just said everything I should have said and I have fully proved that shinza is 1-A

 

[ZERO7772]

I am un-watching this thread and never coming back because barely any staff gives a shit about the verse and the 2-3 uses who support the verse absolutely won't back down and are ready to argue for months

Also, QuasiYuri at this point you are just helping to prolonging the thread and killing it because the verse supports absolute won't back down and staff are very disinterested as it is. You really should stop answering every provoke they throw your way.

With all due respect both side is being childish and it's hard to take this seriously anymore.

 

[Antvasima]

I don't know why I'm being repeatedly @ed over a verse I know next to nothing about.

Well, we need help to evaluate these arguments, and I am too busy and distracted to be able to properly do so myself.

 

[Darksmash]

I do not like the direction this thread is taking.

Anyway, I think this should have been clear enough, but "Transcending concept of dimensions" doesn't necessarily mean spatial dimensions unless the verse clarifies that this is in context referring to any number of spatial dimensions.

Transcending concepts is inherently an NLF and has to be evaluated based on context. Following this line of logic if they actually transcended the idea of dimensions on an absolute level, then calling Throne "Super dimensional" will also be a contradiction, since in the end it's also using the conceptualisation of "dimension" in some form, hence the concept must have a limit.

 

[Birgi126]

Because I spend all my time trying to tell you things that everyone who has read the novel should know

If you really finished the novel, record a video from extras and other parts of novel and send it

This is so childish, so know he has to prove he read the series just because he has a different view on the verse than you?
And your views are things everyone should accept?
Calm your ego.

 

[PrinceofPein]

are ready to argue for months

honestly thats not the case, makes me feel like my effort arguing is been undermined and overlooked tbh

Although i say i wont bring any repeated argument or anything, this is my own summary of what the OP said and what was used as counter
N.B. I don't mind the downgrade, it literally doesnt affect anything, its just that the reasons for the downgrade is absurd


1. Soujiro distortion is cutting and was described to be something more than mere cutting but a form of higher dimensional cutting, that can cut even the throne itself or literally any law, possibility or anything.
OP - this means the gods dont transcend dimensions but just higher dimensional beings.
i mean distortion is brought about by soujiro law "i want to be a blade and cut everything" which utilizes taikyoku the same thing that is the source of dimensions, disconnected and transcends it.

2. Yakou can realize anything he want but because he has no form of desire he can't distort laws
OP - yakou can block the tenmas with a 24D barrier
i will agree this point is okay and makes some sense but red, infera and gemstic already gave counter for this point
and they said it was a physical phenomenon brought forth by his taikyoku so its still 1A. summoning somethin gwith 1A power will still give it 1A as far as i know.
from 2C and above even a minute of 2C power is still 2C - i mean 0.000001% 2C is still 2C, i dont see how summoning something with 1A power is not 1A

3. The throne been beyond dimensions
OP - This means the throne is just above regular 3D
This point is more absurd, since the throne was stated to be in a place devoid of space or any concept or phenomena, so yes in this context beyond-dimensions means beyond

4.The twilight beach having time
OP - said something about it having time iirc
uhhm no it does not have time in any form like infera already sent scans debunking this

5. Statement refering to the tenma as higher dimensional
yes its just used as a narration by the narrator to describe the existence of the tenmas


WHAT I TYPED MAY LOOK BIASED CAUSE I AM A SUPPORTER BUT TS JUST MY HONEST VIEW AND I TRIED TO BE UNBIASED AS POSSIBLE, BRINGING COUNTERS TO COUNTER ARGUMENT WILL JUST MAKE MY SUMMARY GO IN A ROUND ABOUT WAY SO I DIDN'T DO THAT.
ASIDE FROM THE YAKOU SUMMONINGS NOT 1A WHICH HAS BEEN DEBUNKED(I HOPE) I DONT SEE ANY OTHER REASON FOR THE DOWNGRADE, ESPECIALLY SINCE IT WAS HAMMERED ALL THROUGH THE LEVEL OF TRANSCENDENCE TAIKYOKU HOLDS TO REALITY BEEN THE SOURCE AND DISCONNECTED FROM IT.

I will use the same example again
1A transcendence is when a creation as higher dimensions that are higher infinity and you exist outside the said creation in a painter to canvas manner, that means if another painter comes to add anything to the canvas you will not be affected by it at all. which is yes a 1A transcendence

This is my 2 cents and as much as i will like to unwatch this thread i can't i will see it to a close.

 

[PrinceofPein]

and please let's refrain from getting hostile or pissed or making comments meant to do that
i joined wiki for fun and its been fun and i hope it will keep been fun

 

[Antvasima]

I agree. Let's keep any hostility out of this thread, and try to remain respectful and polite.

I appreciate that both Yuri and the Shinza supporters have made a serious effort here, but am concerned about that we have received too limited help from our staff in this case.

 

[KingPin0422]

彼の拳を止めるために、二回目の十倍以上に練り上げて、二十四の次元断層を使用。

If the advancement of Madara's power to twenty-four dimensions is specifically a result of his Taiji growing stronger, then doesn't that clearly indicate that dimensional complexity is tied to the strength of Taiji? Coupled with the Throne apparently being treated as a ten-dimensional object within the Second Heaven (based on being at the top of the Kabbalah's Tree of Life that the Second Heaven is modeled after), it casts doubt on the claim that Taiji is above any arbitrary extension of dimensional space.

Speaking of which, I cannot stress this enough: being 1-A for possessing a size of aleph-X is different from being 1-A for exceeding any number of dimensions, whether it be 4, 5, 22, 9000, or infinity. In the former case, evidence of being higher-dimensional wouldn't contradict anything, but if the latter is why something is 1-A, then such evidence is a hard counter.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the evaluation KingPin0422.

 

[Ogbunabali]

We would still greatly appreciate if some of you would be willing to evaluate the above arguments, as this discussion is very important and going around in circles. Thanks in advance for any help

As I said a couple of times, I don't know the verse enough to comment extensively here besides agreeing with one side's arguments. The series is comprised of huge visual novels that aren't in English, and most staff don't speak Japanese to give proper evaluation here.

But to comment on the summaries there, there's a lot of untranslated Japanese texts so I'm going to ignore most of them.

Besides that, the main evidence for 1-A seems to boil down to Taiji is the source of everything, which includes higher dimensions, and that's why it should be 1-A. The problem with that is, on it's own it's not enough. It's directly contradicted by higher dimensional attacks and statements that the gods are higher dimensional or similar. The counter to this being that "you can have higher dimensions and still be 1-A", which would fine if the main argument for it being 1-A wasn't that Taiji transcends dimensions on any level. You can't have higher dimensions be axis/spatio-temporal ones which lead to 1-A rating, and metaphysical abstract that don't contradict the 1-A rating at the same time. The other counter argument for the higher dimensions seems to be that it's just flowery language, which is a pretty bad argument because not only does that debunk the sole reason for 1-A, it can just be used in reverse for why Taiji doesn't have any transcendence in the first place. It's just cherry picking what flowery is at best.

The whole "higher dimensional" argument, from my perspective, boils down to just: Either the higher dimensions are legit/spacio-temporal/axis and they go to 1-B, or the higher dimensions are metaphorical/flowery language and they go down to Low 1-C. Can't have your cake and eat it too and all that.

There's some sprinkled "transcend space/time" scans in there, but they're vague/not specific at best and not literal/metaphorical/out of context at worst. And such statements are also contradicted anyways.

The back and forth hasn't been going anywhere, just in circles for pages now, so I doubt I'll have anything more to say again.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for taking the time to evaluate this. I appreciate it.

 

[Ovy7]

Ok, so I wanted to remain neutral all this time because I really like the verse, with Dies Irae being my introduction to the visual novel medium and remaining one of my favorite stories in the medium. But sweet loli Marie, the opposing side of this CRT isn't really helping that much, so I'm only left to agree with what KingPin and Ogbunabali said and just accept the CRT.

Maybe in the future entries in the series, Masada would give us something more concrete for 1A.

 

[QuasiYuri]

I am un-watching this thread and never coming back because barely any staff gives a shit about the verse and the 2-3 uses who support the verse absolutely won't back down and are ready to argue for months

Also, QuasiYuri at this point you are just helping to prolonging the thread and killing it because the verse supports absolute won't back down and staff are very disinterested as it is. You really should stop answering every provoke they throw your way.

With all due respect both side is being childish and it's hard to take this seriously anymore.

That is true. Likely won't see my answer since you're un-watching it, but I'm sorry for that.
Wasn't in the best mood to answer provocation and coe today, but I'll try to correct this.

 

[Antvasima]

It seems like the consensus is currently leaning towards accepting this revision.

I think that there are a few explanation pages that need to be updated though.

 

[QuasiYuri]

If the advancement of Madara's power to twenty-four dimensions is specifically a result of his Taiji growing stronger, then doesn't that clearly indicate that dimensional complexity is tied to the strength of Taiji?

This part is actually wrong as far as I recall. It says he used ten more than last time, but "last time" wasn't his first encounter with Tenmas, which is when his Taiji info got updated.

Would have been a good argument in favor of 1-B tho. I can see some things hinting toward this but I think it would have been nitpicking more than good proof.

 

[QuasiYuri]

It seems like the consensus is currently leaning towards accepting this revision.

I think that there are a few explanation pages that need to be updated though.

Aren't most explanations pages either deleted or unrelated ("unrelated" in that their presence aren't essential to Shinza's tiering if downgrade happen)? I worked on possible new justifications (which also include resolving some problems with current ones like Reinhard's) which may help tho.

 

[Antvasima]

You can investigate here if you wish:

Shinza Banshou Explanation Page

1 General Information 2 Die Ewigkeit 2.1 Holy Relic 2.2 Levels of Die Ewigkeit 3 Distortion 3.1 Degrees of distortion 4 Taikyoku 4.1 Levels of Taikyoku 5 Throne 6 Hadou Gods 7 Gudou Gods 8 Apoptosis 9 Singularity 10 Sensory 11 List of Powers and Abilities In Shinza, the cornerstone of power is...

vsbattles.fandom.com

God Physiology (Shinza Banshō)

Emanation (流出) is when one's desire starts to emanate out to the rest of the World, extending to all of creation and painting it over with their reality, effectively becoming a literal god of the new world. This is limited to those of Hegemony, whose World and its Law affect others, and those of...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Also, this blog needs to be removed from the "Featured" section in our wiki navigation bar:

Shinza Bansho Explanation

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Antvasima]

Speaking of which, help to check through which of our other featured blogs that are very outdated and need to be removed from the wiki navigation bar would be very appreciated.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

Maybe in the future entries in the series, Masada would give us something more concrete for 1A.

Maybe. We only got profiles from the VN's and Masada's still progressing Avesta's end afaik. And he still has more series to work with, of which I plan to go get them if he does release them in physical copies.

...basically, it means I plan to translate them however way I can, provided if it's something I can actually obtain and access.

But we only have the VN's to work with, hence the issue of having to use what they tell.

And now this will be my last message to say here.

 

[QuasiYuri]

You can investigate here if you wish:

Shinza Banshou Explanation Page

1 General Information 2 Die Ewigkeit 2.1 Holy Relic 2.2 Levels of Die Ewigkeit 3 Distortion 3.1 Degrees of distortion 4 Taikyoku 4.1 Levels of Taikyoku 5 Throne 6 Hadou Gods 7 Gudou Gods 8 Apoptosis 9 Singularity 10 Sensory 11 List of Powers and Abilities In Shinza, the cornerstone of power is...

vsbattles.fandom.com

God Physiology (Shinza Banshō)

Emanation (流出) is when one's desire starts to emanate out to the rest of the World, extending to all of creation and painting it over with their reality, effectively becoming a literal god of the new world. This is limited to those of Hegemony, whose World and its Law affect others, and those of...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Also, this blog needs to be removed from the "Featured" section in our wiki navigation bar:

Shinza Bansho Explanation

vsbattles.fandom.com

I thought that we already got ride of these two blogs long ago tbh. They have a lot of problems, and mostly got replaced by our physiology pages.
I could try to take what's only in them and apply them elsewhere, which would make our profiles independant from a long, outdated blog.

Gods physiology page would need to be updated yeah. One of my CRT also include changes of this specific page because there's more than just tier-related stuff to change.

 

[KingPin0422]

This part is actually wrong as far as I recall. It says he used ten more than last time, but "last time" wasn't his first encounter with Tenmas, which is when his Taiji info got updated.

Would have been a good argument in favor of 1-B tho. I can see some things hinting toward this but I think it would have been nitpicking more than good proof.

Oh, I see. Well, I still agree with the 1-B conclusion based on everything else.

 

[Antvasima]

I thought that we already got rid of these two blogs long ago tbh. They have a lot of problems, and mostly got replaced by our physiology pages.

I could try to take what's only in them and apply them elsewhere, which would make our profiles independant from a long, outdated blog.


Gods physiology page would need to be updated yeah. One of my CRT also include changes of this specific page because there's more than just tier-related stuff to change.

I have now removed the link to the VenomElite blog from our wiki navigation bar.

Also, did you mean that this page should be removed as well, or do you prefer to rewrite it?

Shinza Banshou Explanation Page

1 General Information 2 Die Ewigkeit 2.1 Holy Relic 2.2 Levels of Die Ewigkeit 3 Distortion 3.1 Degrees of distortion 4 Taikyoku 4.1 Levels of Taikyoku 5 Throne 6 Hadou Gods 7 Gudou Gods 8 Apoptosis 9 Singularity 10 Sensory 11 List of Powers and Abilities In Shinza, the cornerstone of power is...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[QuasiYuri]

Also, did you mean that this page should be removed as well, or do you prefer to rewrite it?

Shinza Banshou Explanation Page

1 General Information 2 Die Ewigkeit 2.1 Holy Relic 2.2 Levels of Die Ewigkeit 3 Distortion 3.1 Degrees of distortion 4 Taikyoku 4.1 Levels of Taikyoku 5 Throne 6 Hadou Gods 7 Gudou Gods 8 Apoptosis 9 Singularity 10 Sensory 11 List of Powers and Abilities In Shinza, the cornerstone of power is...

vsbattles.fandom.com

I think that it should be removed yeah.

Its informations are either on others pages in a better way, not useful, or false. I also copied the source code either way, in case something need to be moved elsewhere.

 

[Nepuko]

Hm. I was fine with them staying at 1-A, but oh well. If my 2 cents are needed, the 1-B side seems to make more sense . After all, an analogy used to have 1-A also applies to regular dimensions... which brings an issue that Darksmash, Ogbunabali and Yuri brought well in my opinion.

 

[KingPin0422]

Just to be clear: from what I remember you saying, Madara started with a Taiji value of 2, which grew to match the level of a Tenma, and then he created... a seven-dimensional fault, was it? Later on, he created another one of these faults with twenty-four dimensions to block another attack, with no indication of his Taiji becoming even greater since the previous instance. Is this correct? If so, then I'll concede to not using it as an argument to support 1-B.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Just to be clear: from what I remember you saying, Madara started with a Taiji value of 2, which grew to match the level of a Tenma, and then he created... a seven-dimensional fault, was it? Later on, he created another one of these faults with twenty-four dimensions to block another attack, with no indication of his Taiji becoming even greater since the previous instance. Is this correct? If so, then I'll concede to not using it as an argument to support 1-B.

The one referred as "last time" is more the one used against Sukuna+Ootake rather than against Morei. This one didn't have a number mentionned iirc.

And yes, he used the twenty four one in the next fight, with it being seen as some sort of extra-precaution rather than a boost (although this one got destroyed by Ootake since he didn't use his Kamunagara but his erasing ability proving that Taiji isn't inherently above such things).