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Divine Dimensional Dance 2nd round: Shinza Gods downgrade
- Thread starter QuasiYuri
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As much as it pains me, i gotta agree with Yuri's points for now, until something truly new is brought to the table.
PrinceofPein
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I am sure this will be impossible since umineko has a very solid cosmology that won't require interpretation from the readers since its straightforward unlike a verse like shinza that it still boils down to speculations and some head canon
Edit: I plan on going on twitter to as Masada what he means by the throne beyond-dimensions and if yakou summonings are boosted to taikyoku level by his taikyoku. This should I think answer everything that is the main issue (hopefully he answers me)
@Qliphoth_Bacikal if possible can you help me construct this statement in Japanese mine is a bit bad.
"What do you mean by the throne hyperdimensional space? Do you mean just a higher form of plane or a space that is above any extensions of dimension"
And also "Are all yakou attacks and summons taikyoku level?"
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Umineko’s entire plot is about reader interpretation and The Creator doesn’t exist but this isn’t an Umineko thread anyway
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My friend, why summon me? Pretty sure it’s common knowledge that I don’t even like this verse, let alone know anything about it.
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The First and the Last Gift, the manga and various other Fragment stories disagree with this statement. You're going to love the CRT I have planned for Umineko then. :kekw:
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I'm familiar with it, so I'll comment more in that thread since this is a shinzo thread.
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Oh boy 1-A downgarde of shinza will sure cause a outrage. I still stand by what i said in the last thread that is now closed.
I pity Masadaverse.
I pity Masadaverse.
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Why are non-staff commenting here without permission from staff? And why was Umineko brought up?
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Please link me his account...i want to ask him as well.
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- Thread starter
- #452
Edit: badly written comment, so I restructured it.
I disagree with this idea for more than one reason :
-We didn't accept this kind of method for Demonbane, DMC or others verses
-It doesn't seem worth the effort and sounds more like low methods.
-Why would we bother him when reading K3 and VFB's enough.
-He didn't answer previous similar questions on his twitter (and doesn't in general).
-As of now, the moment present, he is badly sick to the point of delaying next Avesta stuff. Needless to say, it's not the best time.
So yeah, just need to use his works.
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PrinceofPein
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@masadatakashi
PrinceofPein
Username Only- 8,893
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We have been going back and forth for weeks now, and no its not a low method when we read same thing but have different interpretation of it
I'm sure its supposed to be enough, but why do we have different view of the cosmology?
Oh he did answer one of my questions before so I hope he answers again
Yes this is understandable
Honestly yes, but what do we have to say when we don't know what he means by beyond-dimensions when he defined the throne?
Or let me use the statement 'we have different views on what he meant'
Or the yakou scenario if yakou manifestations are taikyoku level since they are brought about by taikyoku
So I think its better to just go directly and ask him.
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Looks like a conclusion has been reached.
Anyway waiting for Masada is pretty dump suggestion because not only he will probably never answer, but you will be dragging the thread even just cuz you are too desperate to keep their ratings.
Also I am pretty sure he tweeted two days ago that he was sick and in bed and even put Avasta on hold, so he has no time for our nerdy ratings
IMO if the supports gets an answer from Masada they are welcome to make another thread to put them back at 1-A
Anyway it's about time to put this thread to rest I think.
@QuasiYuri
You probably won't get much staff input than what you already have, don't bother with the weird suggestion and I say ask Ant's permission to wrap this up if they think we had enough
Anyway waiting for Masada is pretty dump suggestion because not only he will probably never answer, but you will be dragging the thread even just cuz you are too desperate to keep their ratings.
Also I am pretty sure he tweeted two days ago that he was sick and in bed and even put Avasta on hold, so he has no time for our nerdy ratings
IMO if the supports gets an answer from Masada they are welcome to make another thread to put them back at 1-A
Anyway it's about time to put this thread to rest I think.
@QuasiYuri
You probably won't get much staff input than what you already have, don't bother with the weird suggestion and I say ask Ant's permission to wrap this up if they think we had enough
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- Thread starter
- #457
Could give a lot of not good reasons.
Let's just keep the fact that it happens for every verses
Just have to use the definition and how the word is used in japanese.
Answered by his profile already.
We refuse twitter statements in general as I said.
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- #458
Only saw your comment rn, sorry.
Yeah he's sick since two days. Has the flu.
I'll do that, thanks for your help.
Guardian_Doge
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Anyway, I'm happy the thread reached a better consensus then I thought.
Good luck everyone!
PrinceofPein
Username Only- 8,893
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I'm sure we need to count the votes
I never said we should wait for him, I said I was going to ask him
Please read properly next time
And no one here is desperate to keep their rating(i hope) its just an argument about two different view of things
Yes I know, I follow him I was not expecting his reply immediately last time it took weeks before he replied me
Obviously
PrinceofPein
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Uhhmmm yes statements about authors characters existing in our worlds or omnipotent BS, I know.
This is different, the author said the throne is in a hyper dimensional space, just asking what he meant by that cause as far as I know hyper means beyond, above e.t.c. but you said it means above regular 3D space (which is ridiculous in itself)
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Don't contact the authors and ask them vs related questions. That's very much against our rules and regardless of what they answer we will just ignore it anyway.
And no more off topic discussions about random verses.
And no more off topic discussions about random verses.
PrinceofPein
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@Antvasima I think we should count the votes now bring this thread to a close, if there are any more arguments in the future it can be reopened or a new CRT
PrinceofPein
Username Only- 8,893
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This is not vs related
How is asking what he meant by beyond dimensional throne vs relating?
Idg?
I'm not asking him who will win between hajun or azathoth, or if his characters are boundless or omnipotent.
I am asking to clear up misconception about his verse
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It's literally asked for the sole reason for someone to use it as a reason to bump their character into a higher tier. It is very much so vs battle related.
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- Thread starter
- #467
The vote count isn't hard to do. We had both 1 vote and neutrals before the bunch of downgrade agreement.
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- Thread starter
- #468
"The definition of the word is ridiculous in itself"
Either way, I share Ogbunabali's opinion
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Also regarding new justifications, should they be made here or in another thread? If it's the later, can it be made in CRT or still staff?
There's a little issue regarding Reinhard and another regarding Taiji value of some characters I would like to address while doing them.
There's a little issue regarding Reinhard and another regarding Taiji value of some characters I would like to address while doing them.
PrinceofPein
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- #472
Ok, I'll post them a bit later. The issues seemed thread-worthy but aren't controversial.
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I'll start deleting comments from now on off topic discussions.
PrinceofPein
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I am only counting staff votes
For the OP (also I won't be counting those that argued, since it will be unfair as that's two vote already for people against the downgrade)
1A downgrade: @Ogbunabali @First_Witch @Planck69 (3)
Neutral: @Sera_EX @DarkDragonMedeus @KingTempest (3)
1A stays: @SleepyTBubble @Matthew_Schroeder (2)
This is not the end (laughs like a villain) I will be back
For the OP (also I won't be counting those that argued, since it will be unfair as that's two vote already for people against the downgrade)
1A downgrade: @Ogbunabali @First_Witch @Planck69 (3)
Neutral: @Sera_EX @DarkDragonMedeus @KingTempest (3)
1A stays: @SleepyTBubble @Matthew_Schroeder (2)
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- Thread starter
- #475
Matthew and Sleepy aren't staff tho (so 0)
Although it doesn't change much yeah.
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- #476
Here's the two little issues I was talking about + the justifications.
Some Taiji values
That's actually very simple. You see the Taiji values for the likes of Ren or Satanel? They are invented.Our current proof for Taiji values are the VFB ranking of the Gods and this atwiki page which only tell the values on K3's profiles.
The latter isn't problematic, but the former is not giving any value besides Mercurius' 90.
Q: 神様シリーズにおける太極=流出格のキャラで、各々全盛時の強さランキングを教えてください。
純粋に神としての力量で、たとえば水銀は黄昏に殺されたがっているから負けるとか、そういうのは無しで。
A: じゃあ細かく行きましょう。
波旬>夜刀>水銀=黄金(対水銀時限定)>黄昏=天照>明星=黄金(通常)=蓮>第二>第一>覇吐=竜胆=夜行>紫織=宗次郎>龍水。
神咒のパラメーターはスペースの都合とか色の種類とか色々問題があって七十をカンストにしていますが、実際はもっとあるはずで、百くらいをカンストにしたい。
そして夜刀がオール百のカンスト。波旬がそれを上回る計測不能で、水銀が九十くらいと思ってください。
Purely on the basis of strength as Gods without, for example, something like Mercury dying to Twilight because he desired it.
Hajun > Yato > Mercury = Gold (Only when against Mercury) > Twilight = Amaterasu > Morningstar = Gold (Normally) = Ren > Second (Muzan) > First (Mithra) > Habaki = Rindou = Yakou > Shiori > Soujirou > Ryuusui.
There were various problems with the parameters in Kajiri, such as space limitations, color types, etc. and I couldn't go more than a value of 70. In reality, I wanted to go more than that by a value of 100.
Yato's values are all 100. Hajun exceeds that as he is Impossible to Measure, and I would think Mercurius would have about 90.
While I understand that assuming that since Merc is 90 and Habaki 65, the logical order would be 70 Mithra, 75 Muzan, 80 Ren, and 85 Marie; the best would be to just stay to what was confirmed. After all values aren't always ending by 5 or 0.
Reinhard current value's treatment
As you can see in the VFB part, Reinhard is rated two times. One when "against Mercury" and one "normally". Reinhard can only summon power equal to Mercurius when fighting him and only him because of his Apoptosis nature. This is also said in the VN.The Beast is the Self-Destructive Factor (自滅因子) of the Throne. He displayed a god-like super evolution solely in killing his host. Otherwise, it would be impossible to harm the Snake.
The total legion of the Foreknown World is nothing but all the souls that have been born since the dawn of time until now. It is true that the Snake once said that quality is greater than quantity, and was not lying when he said that the Goddess is supreme.
But at the same time, the opposite was also true. No matter the quality you have, there is always sheer number that can never be countered.
Millions? Wonderful. It was certainly unparalleled. But even that, its mass was no more than that of garbage to the maddened whole of Mercury.
On top of that, the fact that he was able to strike a blow to the Known World proves that Reinhard has absolute destructive properties against the Snake.
On the other hand, it is an evolution limited to only a single target--
"Don't you look away from me!"
He could not demonstrate his super divinity against him. The Moment (Ren/刹那) should have been far inferior to Mercury in mass, yet he was able to overcome the other's blow and started to counterattack. At this point, Reinhard's power can be said to be very directional.
Originally, this characteristic would have been applied to The Moment in the sense of being Mercury's heir, but as of now, Reinhard did not see them as the same. As he said to him earlier, "you are you", and thus he recognizes them as separate divinities.
His rating should be changed according
Justifications
Now that these issues are out of the way, here's my proposal for some of the justifications. Most Legion members can nearly keep theirs with only slight change, and they can't really directly scale to Ootake since he's the strongest Tenma.For Ootake scans, I can link the let's play part or eventually put the scan under Imgur and put the translation alongside them.
Mercurius: Hyperverse level (As a Hadō God, he's above any Pseudo God and is able to rewrite all of creation with his Taikyoku. He's ranked as the 3rd strongest God after Tenma Yato and Hajun, with a Taikyoku value of 90, is considered as a true monster in comparison to his predecessors, with him obliterating Nerose Satanael with a single spell and revolutionned the entire Throne System by himself, while also holding the longest reign as a Throne God)
Reinhard: Hyperverse level (As a Hadō God, he's above any Pseudo God and is able to rewrite all of creation with his Taikyoku. Comparable to Ren Fuji and can boost his entire Legion to the point of making them able to hurt him), higher when against Mercurius](Because of his nature as Mercurius' Apoptosis, his power get amped accordingly whenever he's facing him)
Ren Fuji: Hyperverse level (As a Hadō God, he's above any Pseudo God and is able to rewrite all of creation with his Taikyoku. Able to fight against Reinhard and Mercurius, even if he was weaker than the latter)
Tenma Yato: Hyperverse level (As a Hadō God, he's above any Pseudo God, such as the Tenmas, whose godhood come from him and is able to rewrite all of creation with his Taikyoku. He possess a Taikyoku value of 100, putting him above all other Hadou Gods sans Hajun)
Gudo Marie: Hyperverse level (As a Gudō God, she's above any Pseudo God and considered to be her own personal world, disconnected from the pre-existing one. Her curse is strong enough to kill the likes of Reinhardand Mercurius, although the latter also wanted to be killed)
Hado Marie: Hyperverse level (As a Hadō God, she's above any Pseudo God and is able to rewrite all of creation with her Taikyoku. As the Throne God, she was able to make [[others [[Hado coexist, despite such a thing normally being impossible. Because of the nature of her law, she's able to use the Throne's records to their full potential)
Tenma Ootake: Hyperverse level (As a legionnaire, Ootake is boosted to the same level of existence as a God, becoming an higher dimensional being and was able to destroy Yakou's 24-dimensional barriers as well as kill him, the difference between a higher and a lower dimension is the same as the one held by reality and fiction. At full power, Tenma Ootake is significantly stronger than his previous incarnation as a member of Reinhard's Legion).
Muzan: Hyperverse level (As a Hadō God, he's above any Pseudo God and is able to rewrite all of creation with her Taikyoku. Created the world of Paradise Lost, including the 14 higher dimensions encompassed by the Sephiroth Tree and the Abyss; which is also the main source of power of those who use Sin, a concept implanted by Muzan's own law)
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Matt and Sleepy are both former staff, so they still count. More so Sleepy as he's simply retired rather than demoted. But they're both allowed have view points and their view points still have validity.
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I was just saying this because Pain said that he would only take staff into account (there's still a difference between staff and former ones after all), and not helpful members in general.
Sorry if I gave the wrong idea.
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