Devils Do Cry: Peak of Conspiracy

[Antvasima]

This seems to make sense, but as others have said, it should not automatically be taken as a certainty that our members who advocated for the previous upgrades were not tricked themselves.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Of course. However, in @Galens case, they're claimed to be the one actually recording and gathering the scans, so either that was a lie or they really are faking these scans.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That seems very incriminating, yes.

 

[Jasonsith]

Well, if 9D Devil May Cry be removed for whatever reason, a new tier must be set to put DMC characters to where they belong. I am not derailing. We NEED to put Devil May Cry verse back to their appropriate tiers if materials used for supporting 9D DMC cannot be used for whatever reason.

If any materials are to be used to support a new tier for an appropriate reaosn, whether they are also used by G1 bloggers or not should not be a consideration.

In light of some people voicing not wanting some G1 bloggers be involved on our project, we should just cite any materials from the "original source", not directly from those G1 blogs. Hope this helps.

---

BTW Sevil has spoken in response. Let us respond there before considering any subsequent move to be dealt with here.

Devil May Cry - About PoC

so as many of know, Peak of combat content was removed from DMC profiles a while ago due PoC 2.0 being announced. since then alot of developments happened and to wrap everything in a single thread would be very chaotic & bad considering the amount arguments & discussions it would bring. so i...

vsbattles.com

 

[Galens]

sorry if it has taken me a long time to answer
After all I am not a recurrent user of the forum, since I use it more for reading and I only participate when I see that at least I think I have some knowledge about the subject (or I have an opinion or doubt).
As it is a very serious topic, I had to read the thread well to know what to write, after all my mother tongue is not English, so excuse me if there are many grammatical errors.
My knowledge about the reports and versions of the game and PoC's discord mods is limited (not to say almost null), so for the moment I won't go deep into them

Getting to the heart of the matter, PoC has always been in constant flux, both adding things and taking things away.
And even the challenges from which most of the scans come from have also been changing (I don't know the purposes).
For starters, crediting the "Bloody Feast" challenge as "permanent" is a mistake as it is only temporary for intervals of time as seen in the image as the videos that were provided do not show this but the challenge directly

and if you still have doubts that I might be getting this from another challenge, here one of the videos shows the screen without showing the info at second 00:07

previously the challenge lasted only one week as it was interspersed with another challenge that also lasted one week and had random loading screens (in this game all loading screens were random except in some challenges).
this challenge also lasted one week and was interspersed with Bloody Feast (actually this challenge was removed from version 1.0 leaving only Bloody Feast but still with a time frame)

Regarding the recordings, I don't know why there are cuts (and I'll be honest), my technical knowledge is poor but my only explanation is the machine I was using at the time since it wasn't powerful, and trying to use the emulator + the game + a recorder, it just consumed a lot of resources (not to mention my internet connection). Reason why you can see certain FPS/Internet drops, since at that time I was playing with the graphics at maximum to be able to get all the material I found clearly, as seen at second 00:42 and 01:17 of the first video and at second 00:34 and 00:50 of the second video

Currently the big question was created based on the "Bloody Feast" video but that was only one and I think the only challenge at the time when the game was still in modification that featured a loading screen, since within the game there are challenges which despite the changes, still featured random loading screens with information
- As is the case of PeakTrial with its second phase, since the loading screen of the first phase will always be the same
-Rucksack (currently removed from the game)
-The demon hunter challenge (also removed from the game) and one of the materials challenges
There may be a few more but I may have forgotten them since there are 9 challenges but the game has received various modifications over time and with changes that currently ended in 2 challenges being completely eliminated.

conclusions:

1. The OP claims that the "Bloody Feast" challenge is permanent, which has been proven not to be true, as it has a time slot in which the event is active.

2. The second video shown does not belong to the "Bloody Feast" challenge, it belongs to the PeakTrial challenge (that's why it has the name "Trial") and this is confirmed in another video, so I don't know if the OP was aware that there are more challenges that "Bloody Feast"

3. As I mentioned above, there are several challenges that show random loading screens (with a few exceptions besides Bloody Feast) 9 in the past and 7 currently, which shows that Bloody Feast is not the only source there was at the time.

4. The video errors (and here I am being honest since I don't know for sure why) can be due to the low resources of the computer I had at the time, so it seems that there are certain drops during the game.

5. The game 1.0 has been in constant change since its launch, both in mechanics and design (which should not be surprising seeing the result of what 2.0 is) which is why at the time I recorded the Bloody Feast video we can see there is no timer or loading screen for your party like the other videos. Which is not surprising when currently the loading screens have also changed their design so as not to carry the neon sign that bears the name of the game.

 

[Antvasima]

So the issue here according to you is that what you posted regarding 9-dimensional DMC was true at the time, but has since been changed by the game developers?

 

[Galens]

The game has always undergone constant changes since its release, and only once did I get anything from the Bloody Feast challenge, because as shown in the other video, that challenge belongs to a completely different one.
As I mentioned, currently the game has undergone changes in its design (as shown in the loading screens) that the challenges were random and in the case of PeakTrial you could only enter once a day unless you possess certain materials that had to be purchased . in the game store
With the changes that the game is undergoing, there are no longer 2 challenges out of the 9 that were initially available, as well as design changes in some parts.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I'll respond to this later, but I do not think Galens really understands what the OP is trying to say here.

 

[Deagonx]

It is fortunate, at the very least, that Galens has resolved the issue of whether or not he was actually responsible for these scans. For my part, however, I categorically reject this. I think we need to focus on the sheer unlikelihood of each individual factor, and when multiplying these together accepting the scenario presented to us becomes impossible.

1. The language used. I think we're grossly understating just how laughably battleboard-y they are. Whoever wrote this is familiar with our website:

Infinitely small compared to the demon world and its inhabitants, was part of the demon world until the arrival of the Demon King. The cradle of humanity is governed by all concepts of causality, probability and duality.

One of the countless worlds born from the Primordial Chaos, still retains remnants of the primordial energy. Twisted in every way, independent of all the concepts that govern the Human World.

So, just blatantly giving transduality, acausality, and qualitative superiority to the entire demon realm, with a level of directness I have never seen before. We just spent 6 pages debating whether the human world being called a "ray of light" makes the demon realm 1-C, because that is the vagueness we deal with in creative writing. But here it's just pinpoint smack-in-the-face our standards, over and over again.

The Soul
A basic nine-dimensional form, generally speaking, it originates from and returns to a higher dimension beyond the Eightfold Path. It not only contains the mind and memory, but also contains all the information of the body and its ancestors since ancient times.

The Power of a Name
From the moment of their birth, names are one of the most sacred things to demons. They represent not only power, but also the concept of their own existence, the basic principles of which predate even the creation of the demon world itself. It manifests itself as part of the soul that forms them, and their dark hearts.

All but the weakest demons do not care what they lose, their bodies, their names, their souls or everything, as long as they persist they can regenerate and continue fighting without rest.

Okay so just blatant high-godly regen and higher dimensionality.

Primordial Chaos
Made of the thoughts, dreams and desires of the beings that inhabit the Void. With an infinity of countless dimensions, concepts and the mortal brain cannot quantify. A place that is all, nothing and unique at the same time. Its energy is the point of origin of reality, the phenomena existing in its interior, the energy used and the plot that manipulates the events of the worlds, everything begins and ends here.

The Void
A dangerous place that transcends beyond the limits of Primordial Chaos, unstable, without laws and concepts of any kind. It is the habitat of creatures who are willing to observe, create and control every event of their imaginary plots for the sole purpose of satisfying their amusement, avoiding eternal boredom and new conflicts between them.

The Void
The beings that inhabit it create and manipulate the plot of the worlds for their personal entertainment. It's like writing a story in their heads, as long as they don't imagine it, the show doesn't exist.

Blatant infinite dimensionality, transduality, and plot manipulation.

If you were to write a laundry list of our most significant abilities, and the information needed for our highest tiers, and then created scans to ensure that a character had those abilities, this is what those scans would look like.

But okay, this battleboardy-ness and my personal doubt may not be enough on their own, but this is literally just the first stop.

2. The fact that none of these scans can be found in authentic gameplay videos from sources that are unaffiliated with scaling.

3. The fact that the single video in which these scans are found is inconsistent in its portrayal of the loading screen, "due to an emulator" or whatever situation is being claimed to justify this.

Any one of these pieces of information, by themselves, is very unlikely. Combining them altogether makes this scenario completely unacceptable. The 1.0 Chinese version of this mobile game just-so-happened to have several exceedingly direct scans affirming the standards of our highest tiers and abilities, BUT none of these scans can be found in any gameplay videos or previews, AND they were "removed from the game" shortly thereafter, AND there's some unexplained technical hiccup that caused Galen's recording to be inconsistent with other videos?

No, absolutely not, no chance. My vote is for banning him, and we should no longer use any PoC content that cannot be located as part of a full unedited gameplay video from a source that cannot possibly be faked by a battleboarder, like a video from the official youtube channel, a well-known non-battleboarding gaming channel, et cetera.

 

[Antvasima]

Deagonx seems to make sense above.

 

[Jasonsith]

Deagonx seems to make sense above.

Just because the game developers somehow know battleboarding does not mean the statements cannot be used.

In FOTNS, we can have statements alone supporting low FTL. Why in DMC POC we cannot have scans and official descriptions having 9D statements? That if the statements are real and remain canon of course.

What matter are: how many findings remain usable after the frequent updates and changes. I have heard the game being updated frequently some statements may be retconned or not.

 

[Sevil Natas]

okay this thread has alot of problems, all that being said tho. i wasnt the one who found those scans. it was @Galens that did. he is the one that should be resposible if they are fake. since everyone in the DMC group trusted him, i was only making threads about what we got from him and alot other ppl also did this & calling for me specifically to get banned just because of that is malicious to say the least
with all that being said lets get to this.

In 2021, Devil May Cry: Peak of Combat was announced. It was to be a Chinese-only mobile game, officially licensed by Capcom and containing story elements that would cement it within the canonical timeline of DMC.

On July 22nd, 2021, the “Bloody Feast” game mode was released. Within this mode, there were reported to be numerous scans that would upgrade the verse significantly, such as beings lifting the entire Demon World, or souls being 9-dimensional and existing in a higher dimension.

These scans were quickly used to upgrade the verse. Problem is, the scans are fake.

this is false, not all the scans come from the bloody feast according to galens, alot of them come from the peak trials & other challenges. infact i think just one comes from the bloodyfeast, & that is pluto's scan.

The scans used on VSBW for the upgrades seem fine at first glance, but upon investigation there are multiple discrepancies between the fake scans and the game’s actual content. For instance:

• The Discrepancies In Loading Screen Tips

One of the most notable discrepancies is the tip screen. In the game the tip screen has actual tips that tell you about the corresponding location. For some odd reason, the scans on VSBW have random lore information, which is inconsistent with the gameplay.

In the actual gameplay, these screens consistently have tips that correspond to the location, and give you a description of that location. None of the VSBW scans do this, it’s just random lore information. We’ve looked through many loading screen traditions in the game and in authentic gameplay videos, and there’s never any lore.

Further, the lore information in the scans used for the upgrade can’t be found anywhere outside of VSBW, at all. Suffice to say, these are major red flags and points to forgery.

this is not the case. look at this one for example. this scan is 100% real as it appears in the main story missions. as result of that it appears in 2.0 as well, we even have an english version of it(you can probably find it by looking at playthroughs of the story of the game). yet it talks about the book of demons, smth that has nothing to do with the location or what is going on with the mission at that current time.

also saying stuff is fake because "it doesnt say what it usually says" isnt evidence at all. it's just arbitrary since the devs can add whatever they want in any game mode they want.

A discrepancy that isn’t necessarily tied to gameplay but mainly the claims surrounding PoC is the massive contradictions between the claims made by Sevil and the DMC supports on VSBW and the actual gameplay itself. For example, according to Sevil, obtaining scans for “Bloody Feast” is hard on the basis that it’s “time limited” when in actuality, that’s not entirely the case. The extent “Bloody Feast” is “time limited” in the sense that it’s a daily event, meaning that it's open for a small window each day, and that window is when you do your dailies and get rewards, just like any other mobile game. It just resets each day, which doesn't mean scans should be lost forever; Across all footage, you can see that there is no timer or anything that would indicate that it’s a limited time event that could disappear soon.

Across the 2 years of videos you can clearly see that bloody feast uses the same bosses over and over. This means that there are no time gated bosses or anything like that, meaning that the idea that they can’t get scans from this seemingly hard to access mode is somewhat suspect.

An announcement post for the mode can be found here, and it explains pretty well how it works (it’s in Chinese, obviously).

it was a game mode the changes every week it's always up, just with different events & different bosses, if what galens told us was correct. & again u are hyper fixating on one mode, that only gets us one scan.

Whenever one brings into question the validity of the stuff used for PoC on Vs Battle Wiki, many of the supporters are quick to point towards the official discord that exists for PoC. In that server, there are people who supposedly have ties to the development of the game and can verify the existence of the scans used. In theory, this would be fine, but the problem is that the sources that many of the DMC folks have used are dubious at best, for the simple reason that their credentials are insufficient.

The supposed devs of PoC in the official discord have never once given their actual credentials or proven their identities, and have explicitly stated they don’t work on the Chinese version of PoC. Another mod frequently used as a source, Revolthell, is just a mod and is not a dev in any capacity (they clearly state this in their server roles lol), and so his words should not be used as gospel. His twitter account also has multiple posts showing he has no insider knowledge on the game.

Further, many of their responses to questions are answered with “maybes” or uncertain responses, implying that they aren’t 100% filled in as far as the PoC stuff goes. Their input should clearly be taken with a grain of salt. Even if we did take their claims at face value, we’d run into a major contradiction. According to them, the scans are real, but they also claimed that the global version would have everything the Chinese version did… except the global version obviously lacked the scans.

conveniently you forgot to include the only person who has authority on the this that said those scans are real. and that is the game dev translator and community manager of the global release. here. this is a public discord server btw. you can just join & search for this if you guys arent believing me. this dev mentions hat he is a translator & a PR guy in his interview with DNC. this guy was responsible for PR & was in translation team. there's quite literally no reason for him to outright lie here. and i explained to him the situation perfectly. here's the first question i asked him btw just for context's sake

also, it isnt necessary for them to have authority in order to figure if these scans are real or not, they just need to be an unbiased third party & have played the game. these scans werent "insider knowledge". they were in the game for everyone to see.


also the stuff about the global version, he didnt claim it will have everything 1.0 did have. he just claimed it will be the same thing as the chinese build. big difference as the chinese build got the 2.0 update as well. which removed almost all of those gamemodes.

When I say “Discrepancies in Language”, I’m specifically referring to how the scans themselves don’t sound like anything that would come from Devil May Cry’s writers as opposed to some debater typing them up and trying to pass them as stuff created by Hideki Kamiya.

For instance, the “narrative, void” stuff that if taken at face value makes DMC 1-A. They are full of battleboarding lingo that we never see in the series itself. For instance:

1. “Infinitely small compared to the demon world and its inhabitants, was part of the demon world until the arrival of the Demon King. The cradle of humanity is governed by all concepts of causality, probability and duality.”
2. “Made of the thoughts, dreams and desires of the beings that inhabit the Void. With an infinity of countless dimensions, concepts and the mortal brain cannot quantify. A place that is all, nothing and unique at the same time. Its energy is the point of origin of reality, the phenomena existing in its interior, the energy used and the plot that manipulates the events of the worlds, everything begins and ends here.”
3. “A dangerous place that transcends beyond the limits of Primordial Chaos, unstable, without laws and concepts of any kind. It is the habitat of creatures who are willing to observe, create and control every event of their imaginary plots for the sole purpose of satisfying their amusement, avoiding eternal boredom and new conflicts between them.”
4. “The beings that inhabit it create and manipulate the plot of the worlds for their personal entertainment. It's like writing a story in their heads, as long as they don't imagine it, the show doesn't exist.”

How are you going to tell me with a straight face that this stuff is not written by a battleboarder?

This is setting aside the blatant inconsistencies this has with DMC’s own lore, such as the heavy focus on meta-narrative elements which DMC has never incorporated into its story in any way. The combination of the lore inconsistencies and use of tiering lingo uncommon to the series makes them a certain forgery.

we werent even the ones who found those new scans in the imgur link. we didnt even use them here in the wiki, they are very new.
yes some of our previous scans are among them. but alot of of them including the shit u use to say "Discrepancies in language". didnt even make any profile,
THEY DIDNT EVEN COME FROM GALENS. they were posted on august of 2023. and we, the DMC guys, didnt find out about them until a month later. the post above highlighting my conversation with the PoC staff that told me these are real. were me literally trying to confirm whether these are real or not, infact. i'm the one who put these scans you are talking about to the most scrutiny. i've went to extreme lengths to make sure these were real. like here where i went measuring pixels in one of them & comparing it to the 100% real demon book scan above which they matched. the fact that you are here using stuff that we never even used here on the wiki. werent even the ones who found them. and accusing me & galens for faking them. even though i never even claimed to have found the scans. and for galens, never found These particular scans, is proof of how malicious you actually are in this thread.

as for these scans in particular, well they were originally posted in the PoC discord server. we asked the user who posted the link where they got these from, they responded that their friend got into some debate with someone on YT and that someone posted the imgur link. we asked where said debate took place, we never got an answer. now in regards to whether they're real or not. again the PoC staff said they were real. no reason for him to lie about that. and I've analyzed the images as much as i could to find anything that could indicate image editing. i've found nothing, i'll get to more details on this later.

As shown here and here, there exist a small number of videos that depict a player entering the Bloody Feast mode, with the loading screen displaying the supposed scans.

However, we can reasonably say that this footage is faked. The main issue is how no other footage can corroborate what is shown here; Countless videos of Bloody Feast gameplay exist on Bilibili, many of which showcase the same boss fight as shown in the 9D soul scans. However, none of those videos show the scans in question - rather, they show a rather generic team display, showing who you’re playing with and what character they’re playing as. This was originally claimed to be added in a later update, but this is not the case, as we can see from the dates these videos were uploaded. Some of these gameplay videos are dated July 23rd, 2021. This is a single day after the release of Bloody Feast, meaning the team display was in the game from Bloody Feast mode’s launch all the way until days before it was closed prior to the 2.0 update. The inverse is true as well. It’s unlikely that this content was added later, because we have gameplay videos from around the time the “scans” were dropped (October 2021), ranging from September to November 2021, and none of those showcase the scans, either. So we can reasonably say that no gameplay footage actually confirms the existence of these scans.

These videos also showcase an odd quirk of PoC’s loading screens. See, when the game loads, it usually loads the UI on the right side first (such as the “now loading” text), leaving the right side blank. The right side then displays a piece of related artwork shortly after. You can go frame by frame in any video and see that this is how it works; I could gladly give more examples from the videos linked above. Basically, there’s always a gap between the “now loading” text and the artwork on the right side of the screen. This can be displayed in countless videos, all from 1.0, regardless of the date posted. It’s simply how the game’s loading screens work. However, the supposed video proof of these scans doesn’t display these properties - The “now loading” text and the artwork appear on the same frame. This is a small discrepancy, but on top of everything else, helps to solidify that the evidence at hand is completely incongruent with everything the actual game shows.

first. only the first one came from the bloody feast. the second one came from one of the peaktrials or some other super boss event. this is evident if you look at the video, it clearly says "griffon trial" at the beginning of the fight. and as i said before, only one scan come from the bloody feast. rest were all different.

secondly the bilibili footage, does not display the same fight. the fights in them always have a timer. while the one that was linked doesnt. it's clearly a different event as those fights regularly change with the mode swapping fights every week.

third. that "evidence of video editing" could easily just be a freeze. as the game has to unload the UI from the mode and then load the UI for the loading screen. that could easily result in a blackscreen between the 2 processes. especially since galens wasnt even playing at a cutting edge device. and a blackscreen isnt a feature associated with video splicing. splicing stuff does not result in a brief blackscreen, it just instantly cuts to smth. as shown in this joke video for example


now. this thread does not answer the biggest question i have. if you wanna claim something is fake, that something needs to be fake-able as i posted here
inorder to fake these scans. you need to be pixel perfect in photo editing, somehow obtain the games fonts, somehow obtain a blank loading screen photo to edit (all of these being unobtainable by just playing the game btw) in and on top of that, you need to be fluent in chinese. if these are fake, you'd expect mistakes all over it. like the fonts being different to real scans, it misaligning with real scans. the background being wonky because u have to remove the text that was there before. etc. yet when i looked at these scans(particularly the new stuff), none of them have any mistakes of the sort. for just some vs debater, doing something this difficult, and doing it MULTIPLE TIMES ON TOP OF THAT. is pretty much nigh impossible if you ask me. they'd have to be a professional image & video editor that has access to stuff that isnt really obtainable. and also then you have one of the devs, who is responsible for PR so it is important for him to tell the truth. outright says they're real.

i've said my piece here. hopefully this drama gets resolved quickly

 

[Deagonx]

this is not the case. look at this one for example. this scan is 100% real as it appears in the main story missions. as result of that it appears in 2.0 as well

No one is saying there aren't any loading screen tips. I don't know why you posted this. This one isn't even in the album from the OP.

conveniently you forgot to include the only person who has authority on the this that said those scans are real. and that is the game dev translator and community manager of the global release. here. this is a public discord server btw. you can just join & search for this if you guys arent believing me. this dev mentions hat he is a translator & a PR guy in his interview with DNC. this guy was responsible for PR & was in translation team. there's quite literally no reason for him to outright lie here. and i explained to him the situation perfectly. here's the first question i asked him btw just for context's sake

The fact that his initial response says "These are probably texts from an older version or something" demonstrates that he is not familiar with them. Thus, he is not in a position to verify their authenticity.

However, again, I think the likelihood that these extremely battleboard-esque scans only made their way into a specific time limited event, were later deleted, and no one can find in bilibili videos, is not an acceptable premise.

 

[Sevil Natas]

No one is saying there aren't any loading screen tips. I don't know why you posted this. This one isn't even in the album from the OP.

u didnt understand the context of what i was even replying to. i was replying to her stating that "loading screens never mention random lore stuff, so these loading screens are fake"

The fact that his initial response says "These are probably texts from an older version or something" demonstrates that he is not familiar with them. Thus, he is not in a position to verify their authenticity.

However, again, I think the likelihood that these extremely battleboard-esque scans only made their way into a specific time limited event, were later deleted, and no one can find in bilibili videos, is not an acceptable premise.

so are u flat out accusing him of lying. then? i explained the situation for him, and i explained why ppl think they're not real, if he didnt know, then he should say "i dont know" not that "they're from an older version, they are not photoshopped"

 

[Deagonx]

u didnt understand the context of what was eveni replying to. i was replying to her stating that "loading screens never mention random lore stuff, so these loading screens are fake"

Okay, can you find a gameplay video with that scan? If not, we shouldn't use that either and it doesn't really count as proof against what she is saying.

so are u flat out accusing him of lying. then?

I am saying that the use of the phrase "probably" means he does not know, he isn't familiar with the scans. The fact that he said they are not photoshopped doesn't necessarily override this, it may have simply been his assessment that they didn't look photoshopped.

 

[Executor_N0]

Since I was one of the people who was fine with using PoC content before, I guess I need to say something.

As I said in "The Witcher" attempt that was using a "lost version of a website that only existed for a single day and no one other than a single person archived by directly downloading the page instead of putting in the WayBackMachine", we need to have a way to verify the sources. The more easy is the way for it to be manipulated due to its rarity, the harder it's to really accept that it wasn't manipulated.

We are in an age where anyone can open a program and manipulate material even down to the source. Like the Bobobo-bo Bo-bobo thread that used manipulated scans someone made, or even Sonic The Hedgehog whose script file was manipulated by someone claiming it was a "super rare version of the script I found" when it was just a manipulation that I was able to show using OSForensics (The false script was even uploaded to the sonic fan resource at Sonic Retro and only recently they noticed that and reverted all of their manipulations).

And in fact, this is becoming so common that nowadays people attempt to make scans look "worse" because "it would be harder to be false if it's something like a phone recording instead of a Print Screen", something not exclusive to this community.

For that reason, if it's something that can't be verified again by any means whatsoever and there's enough information to be thought of as being false, it shouldn't be used, even if just to be cautioned about the possibility it was falsified. The whole point of having references is to allow someone else to be able to find that information, and when the source is singular videos made by a single person that have problems and can't be verified anywhere else, then it's really not a reference. If at least one or two of these texts could be find in videos made by anyone unrelated to this, or even if someone was able to rip apart the code of the game and show that the text is there, it could still be fine in my opinion.

 

[Sevil Natas]

Okay, can you find a gameplay video with that scan? If not, we shouldn't use that either and it doesn't really count as proof against what she is saying.

I am saying that the use of the phrase "probably" means he does not know, he isn't familiar with the scans. The fact that he said they are not photoshopped doesn't necessarily override this, it may have simply been his assessment that they didn't look photoshopped.

if he doesnt know he'll say he doesnt know. you're nitpicking what he says to make it seem like he doesnt know the game he's developing. he was responsible for translating stuff from chinese to the english version. that includes loading screen tips. it's entirely possible he saw them there. and it's his job as a PR guy to say the truth here. i informed him of the situation, and how important it is he said they arent fabricated. plain & simple

 

[CloverDragon03]

This is just a short draft I came up with. Suggestions to change this are welcome if it's agreed on to put in a Discussion Rule, or this can be axed if it's decided that a Discussion Rule isn't necessary.

I've edited the Discussion Rule proposal based on Jasonsith's suggestions btw

 

[Deagonx]

Sure, that scan is usable then (depending on the canon status of PoC, but I suppose that's for another thread). However this is the main story, every video I've seen of game modes (like Peak Trial and Bloody Feast) follow the convention Fuji describes. However, this does not significantly diminish the point being made. I've even seen three different videos of Peak Trial which have identical loading screens based on where you are, so it's not as though the tips are randomized, which makes the notion that these miraculously escaped video-recording by anyone other than battleboarders extremely far-fetched.

if he doesnt know he'll say he doesnt know. you're nitpicking what he says to make it seem like he doesnt know the game he's developing. he was responsible for translating stuff from chinese to the english version. that includes loading screen tips. it's entirely possible he saw them there. and it's his job as a PR guy to say the truth here. i informed him of the situation, and how important it is he said they arent fabricated. plain & simple

He isn't developing this game, he explicitly said he is not affiliated with the Chinese version. He wasn't familiar with the scans, as made evident by the "probably." Unless you can find proof of them like you did above, I don't really see the point in entertaining this. But that's enough of the back and forth here, you've made your stance on the matter known.

-----------

At this point it seems certain we will not be accepting any of these scans unless they can be found in an authentic video like above. I don't anticipate that ever happening, and personally I think the evidence we have is sufficient to ban Galens. It'd be helpful for other staff members to offer their input on that.

 

[Deagonx]

Since I was one of the people who was fine with using PoC content before, I guess I need to say something.

As I said in "The Witcher" attempt that was using a "lost version of a website that only existed for a single day and no one other than a single person archived by directly downloading the page instead of putting in the WayBackMachine", we need to have a way to verify the sources. The more easy is the way for it to be manipulated due to its rarity, the harder it's to really accept that it wasn't manipulated.

We are in an age where anyone can open a program and manipulate material even down to the source. Like the Bobobo-bo Bo-bobo thread that used manipulated scans someone made, or even Sonic The Hedgehog whose script file was manipulated by someone claiming it was a "super rare version of the script I found" when it was just a manipulation that I was able to show using OSForensics (The false script was even uploaded to the sonic fan resource at Sonic Retro and only recently they noticed that and reverted all of their manipulations).

And in fact, this is becoming so common that nowadays people attempt to make scans look "worse" because "it would be harder to be false if it's something like a phone recording instead of a Print Screen", something not exclusive to this community.

For that reason, if it's something that can't be verified again by any means whatsoever and there's enough information to be thought of as being false, it shouldn't be used, even if just to be cautioned about the possibility it was falsified. The whole point of having references is to allow someone else to be able to find that information, and when the source is singular videos made by a single person that have problems and can't be verified anywhere else, then it's really not a reference. If at least one or two of these texts could be find in videos made by anyone unrelated to this, or even if someone was able to rip apart the code of the game and show that the text is there, it could still be fine in my opinion.

I fully agree with this, and I think it would be prudent to make a rule in this regard. This is not the only verse on the site that has completely inaccessible scans where the source is essentially "trust me bro" and they can only be found circulating on battleboards.

And I think an understated point is how much weight we should even give to obscure defunct content. In a large multi-media franchise like DMC, how seriously can we consider lore that was -- in the best case scenario -- only accessible briefly in a Chinese mobile game? Is that really the best way to index the character? With content that 99% of the fanbase never saw, couldn't understand, and will never see again?

The vast vast vast majority of scans are not in any way questionable, for those that are, we should only accept them if they can be reproduced. The venn diagram of "scans that confer huge upgrades" and "scans that mysteriously cannot be found ever again" is too close to being a circle for us to simply place faith in the community. We can't be naive, we know how invested and emotional people can get about the way our profiles look.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Deagon gave me permission on discord.

Ok so another weird thing is about peak trial is that every single area with varying dates of time mind you all have the same consistent loading tip (this is a single example but it remains true for other areas all have the same loading screen tip oh and more).

Kinda strange how no matter where I look I also cannot find any scans that are suppose to be in peak trials despite the consistency of specific loading screens popping up in certain areas.

(and for this video I also for the life of me can't find peak trial griffon fight on bilibili but it's also rather strange that an image for ice hall (same landmark as shown in the image) is used for a completely unrelated area even though there's typically a large precedent and especially for the event for the scans image to relate to the map you are in like shown in pluto scans I sent and this or else it just has the filler image like for first scans I shown.)

 

[Palito266]

I have been granted permission by Planck to comment on this thread, and i will do so to apport my part and give a bit of input of what's going on here. I do not want to be seen as a "snitch" or something similar thanks to these screenshots, nor do i want to seem "untrustworthy".



The Lightning

Now, we know that there's video proof and i will be using this one as an example. In the loading screen you can see that the "Now Loading" logo is illuminating part of the text, and that it's kind of going brighter and then a bit darker and so on. This is something that would normally be HARD as hell to fake, this lightning effect is consistent with the other loading screens, since the brightness gets lowered and uppered. You can also see that the light the sign produces touches the text, as seen with the video of the infamous scans.
Normally this should be REALLY hard to fake since you'd need to overlay the text in a way it fits the lightning.


Narrative Consistency

All of the scans presented within (except the Void, Primordial Chaos, Human World and Demon World) are consistent with the background lore that we have, since it's merely expanding upon something we already had, without creating any inconsistencies whatsoever.
One example can be the name scan, in PoC it talks about it being a "Principle" and something that has existed before the Demon World. This can also be consistent with the main series since we know a "Primordial Chaos" could've existed thanks to the hints Argosax gives us in the second game, but this wasn't really explored at all, so exploring it further in this scan doesn't hurt anything. Furthermore, the name is said to be "truth" and the value of all things, and since demons exist since before the creation of the Human World and maybe the Demon World, it is consistent for them to have their names adyacent in these eras.
Another example can be the infamous soul scan, which dictates that the soul has the name, mind and memories of an individual. This can also be argued in the mainline series as seen with Nero in the Savior. The Savior has the ability to merge one's soul and body, however this affected Nero's memories and mind and maybe even the name (since we see Dante calling out to him) which can hint to the soul having all of these aspects.
Unless there is a blatant contradiction, these should be used within the realm of narrative consistency.


Loading Screen Consistency

The main thing of this is that there's a translated part of the scan named "Tips", which seems to be abided by both the """fake""" scan and the normal game. We can also see that after the "Tips" the title of the main thing of whatever the scan is talking about appears above the maintext, which is consistent with both the scans in the normal game and the so-called fake scans.



My opinion was always to wait for the global release, but i don't think a ban for anyone does it.

 

[Deagonx]

I'll add that over the weekend there was an interview with the CEO/Founder of NebulaJoy and the CAPCOM Singapore Managing Director discussing this game, and when they talk about the collaboration between the two companies on the game, it's spoken about pretty much exclusively in terms of game mechanics, not world building.

How does Capcom ensure the game stays as close as the original?​

Li Bian (CAPCOM Singapore): This can only be achieved through extensive discussions between the two teams, as there are many details to consider, and it’s challenging to remember them all at once. The key is that during the development process, the two teams consistently engage in discussions.

Preserving the essence of the original work is not something that can be done overnight. Because we are two separate companies, the alignment between our teams is crucial. As Bobby mentioned earlier, details like Dante never falling completely but always having a hand to support himself when knocked down are part of this culture. These aspects are tested and tried to see if they work, and if not, they are revised.

It involves a continuous refinement of details, like how a character jumps or turns, the timing of Dante’s double jump, or the height of the first and second jumps. These are finer details that may not be as meticulously considered in game development in some regions, but we are particularly attentive to such nuances in our team.

Logically, it doesn't make much sense for CAPCOM to be instructing large additions to the lore or story in a game like this. They just wanted to make sure it was faithful to the "feel" of the original game and that the character animations were right. Everything I've seen online about this game from DMC communities that aren't involved in battleboards consider this game completely non-canon, pointing out numerous inconsistencies between it and the original series, characters with weapons they shouldn't have yet based on when the game "takes place." Characters showing up who shouldn't, monsters showing up from the non-canon reboot, bosses being fought who are canonically already dead.

We likely shouldn't even have been using this in the first place. It's a hack and slash gacha game that I have seen described as "poorly written fan fiction" and "a hack and slash with a thin veneer of story and DMC skins." DMC5 was an AAA video game with like 9/10 star reviews. I really doubt CAPCOM considers this soulless cash grab as a canonical extension of their franchise, and every discussion about it from people who aren't trying to validate the fake scans has said it isn't canon.

 

[Sevil Natas]

every video I've seen of game modes (like Peak Trial and Bloody Feast) follow the convention Fuji describes. However, this does not significantly diminish the point being made. I've even seen three different videos of Peak Trial which have identical loading screens based on where you are, so it's not as though the tips are randomized, which makes the notion that these miraculously escaped video-recording by anyone other than battleboarders extremely far-fetched.

ok explain to me in detail how that video of the soul scan is fake then? cus u ignored the part where i mentioned how impossible this is to fake.
also the only reason this was recorded is because it was a main story mission, not some obsecure challenge. and you're wrong, every single trial is different depending on what boss you're fighting. hell i'm pretty sure it depends on what event you're fighting

He isn't developing this game, he explicitly said he is not affiliated with the Chinese version. He wasn't familiar with the scans, as made evident by the "probably." Unless you can find proof of them like you did above, I don't really see the point in entertaining this. But that's enough of the back and forth here, you've made your stance on the matter known.

he also said he works in the same office as the chinese devs, he also said he handled translation & technical things for the game. he clearly knows some things about it. his statement was clear. they are not photo shopped

Ok so another weird thing is about peak trial is that every single area with varying dates of time mind you all have the same consistent loading tip (this is a single example but it remains true for other areas all have the same loading screen tip oh and more).

thats.... a straight up lie, or a huge mistake from you. if you look at the parts where the bosses appear, they are literally all different no loading screen appears to be identical to one another

 

[Deagonx]

the "Now Loading" logo is illuminating part of the text, and that it's kind of going brighter and then a bit darker and so on. This is something that would normally be HARD as hell to fake

This would not be hard to fake. It would be a relatively basic task in a program like Adobe After Effects.

since it's merely expanding upon something we already had, without creating any inconsistencies whatsoever.

No one is claiming it directly contradicts previous knowledge (someone faking a scan would likely know better), but it adds a great deal of information that is out of place for the series, and that just-so-happens to directly affirm the VSBW standards of very powerful abilities like plot manip, transduality, high-godly regen, and infinite dimensionality.

The main thing of this is that there's a translated part of the scan named "Tips", which seems to be abided by both the """fake""" scan and the normal game. We can also see that after the "Tips" the title of the main thing of whatever the scan is talking about appears above the maintext, which is consistent with both the scans in the normal game and the so-called fake scans.

Honestly, I can't understand this paragraph.

 

[Planck69]

Deleting someone's messages when they're defending themselves on a thread accusing them of forgery is just... ugh.

I've restored that message at least.

 

[DarkGrath]

@Deagonx With all due respect, please do not delete the counterarguments to your case. Even if you believe they are poor counterarguments, that will be decided through analysis and discussion, not by a single staff member shutting down their opposition. This is quite a serious case, and may very well lead to a permanent ban - any reasonable opportunity for the people accused to defend themselves should be granted.

 

[Deagonx]

To clarify, Sevil is no longer under suspicion as Galens is the source of the scan. My intention is to not let the thread be cluttered by repetition/saying the same things over and over, especially without staff permission, but if you want it to stay that's fine.

 

[Qawsedf234]

This is quite a serious case, and may very well lead to a permanent ban - any reasonable opportunity for the people accused to defend themselves should be granted.

This isn't directed towards you, but for future posts drop the topic for the thread/take it elsewhere. This thread shouldn't be cluttered with people making the same point about Deagon's actions.

On topic even if the scans aren't fake relying in translations from a gacha game that results in such a heavy upgrade for the universe seems like it isn't the best move. Unless the games truly back all of those ratings I don't think it should be used.

 

[DarkGrath]

I've spent the past few hours sifting through the evidence, including the OP, the thread, the cases provided by Galens and Sevil, and my own research into PoC and its systems/lore. These are my conclusions.

A large portion of this evidence, including the language used in the scans, the unusual nature of the lore provided, and the oddities in the developer responses are pieces of evidence I consider compelling, but not conclusive. On the basis of these pieces of evidence, I would be willing to remove the scans from all DMC indexing, but I would not be willing to take action against Galens - the former only requires establishing the evidence isn't verifiable, the latter requires establishing unquestionably that Galens fabricated the scans, two very different levels of evidence.

However, there is one piece of evidence that I believe conclusively establishes this case, which is the discrepancy in the footage provided by Galens. I have checked through the footage by Galens, as well as the alternate footage provided in the OP, and footage of the game from several other channels on YouTube - all frame-by-frame, and all cross-referenced thoroughly. In every single piece of footage I have identified that was not recorded by Galens, I can confirm that the artwork on the loading screen does not pop in until a minimum of several frames into the loading screen; there is always an intermediary period in which the loading screen has appeared and the artwork has not loaded in yet. Always, with the one exception of Galens' footage with the scan on the loading screen.

Galens' prior argument, that this was due to stuttering in his game, does not work either. For one, I can find no other discrepancies in Galens' loading screen footage to suggest the game was stuttering during the loading period - the loading screen includes the animation of the neon light flickering, and I can find no sign at all that this animation is lagging or skipping frames. Secondly, in the alternate footage I've found, there have been numerous examples of videos of the game that evidently stutter far more than Galens' footage does, and none of them ever result in skipping the first few frames of the loading screen. Thirdly, if it was even hypothetically possible for frame skipping to occur on the loading screen to produce this effect, I would naturally be expected to have found it at least once by chance - yet, with dozens of examples, I can consistently identify that nothing even remotely similar has occurred.

The reason why I believe this evidence conclusively establishes the case against Galens where others do not is because, as far as I can tell, there are no reasonable alternate explanations for this discrepancy beyond what has been proposed in the OP - namely, that the footage has been doctored. Alternate explanations may exist for, say, the suspicious use of language in a scan; but in these circumstances, I don't believe there is any alternate explanation for the discrepancy we observe in the footage. As Galens has already clearly expressed the fact that they were the one who played the game in this footage and recorded it, there is furthermore no person who could have reasonably been responsible for doctoring this footage other than Galens. If this logic holds, then it establishes that Galens doctored footage to falsify the existence of scans which they were then responsible for indexing on the wiki.

As I have stated, and will reiterate here, I wish to give as much opportunity as possible to Galens and the other opposition to defend their case. If this deduction can be proven to be invalid - for example, by proving that there was a reasonable alternate explanation for the discrepancy, or that there is another person who could have reasonably doctored the footage - then I will give your argument my analysis and reconsider the case with the factors you have acknowledged. At present, however, I see no reason to deny the notion that Galens doctored the footage for the purpose of falsifying scans that they used for indexing on the wiki, and I would therefore support a permanent ban.

 

[Jasonsith]

I am neutral on giving anyone a permanent ban - at least I will not be supporting it. (I mean I really want to vote against this ban but I do not want to risk my reputation and my own right to type things in this server - and I am likely outvoted anyway.)

Yes this issue has been so controversial due to the nature that this is a game controversial in a vs perspective in several ways.

First, it IS a game licensed from Capcom and therefore it will be somehow canon. At worst, DMC POC will have its own profile from the main canon.

Second is the use of language. Well some may find it uncomfortable that the wordings chosen by the team - at least on the translated part - seem so battleboarding. Well it kind of goes against our intention of setting up our tiering system - to check whether characters portrayed fit into our definition. If

If you want to accuse against a fabricated scan, or an imperfect translation, then these are yet other issues. Fabricated scans means the users intentionally made up the scans which never appeared in that game. However, since the game itself is keeping updated, some of the scans, whether original, modified, or straight up fabricated, cannot be examined. I am fine with these scans not being examined, but any punishment (e.g. a ban) on the user who provided such scans must be done with significant support and free of doubt. I will not be casting a ban vote so far. But due to the nature of this game, yes it would be difficult to examine on the authenticity of former versions of the game.

Therefore, any feat yield and scaling and cosmology and any description for DMC POC is safer to be based on versions one can safely extract from just like how we examine any other online game and mobile game and any other verses whose native language is not English.

As for what to do for the DMC standings... Well, if the 9D DMC cosmology is deemed I, then we need to accelerate on discussing on where it stands now.

If this thread is not the most proper place for such discussion, I am ready to open a new thread within an hour.

(Sorry still typing but since this case is controversial let me finish my talk first)

 

[Qawsedf234]

neutral on giving anyone a permanent ban

If they faked evidence it would automatically be a permanent ban. Anything less would encourage others to do the same thing for other verses.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

So about the whole "oh the language is too battleboarder-y and related stuff"

The chinese developers are well aware of this wiki, the implications and the "characters we created" and I'm pretty sure we have been saying that since day 1.

How do we know someone you may ask? It isn't because of statements that are pretty much textbooks definitions but all because of Pluto, a character who was born in this wiki.

For context during the 2018/19 era DMC was going through a series of threads with the intent of getting the verse back to 3A and in one of those posts Kepekley came with a theory that unified the DMC lore perfectly and the result was Pluto the demon king who was killed by Mundus. This wiki was the first one to have such character ever and with a very specific description too (A black horned demon god with a spear) while other places (like the DMC wiki) still believe to this day that Mundus is Pluto.

Why is this important? Because Pluto in Peak of Combat was officially introduced in 2021.

So for those of you wondering why the text feels too battleboarding even in 2.0 is because the developers all the way there in china know about this place and have been taking notes.

 

[Jasonsith]

If they faked evidence it would automatically be a permanent ban. Anything less would encourage others to do the same thing for other verses.

So are the scans fake? Or are they just invalid? I will stay my hand out unless I can see proper charges with evidence beyond a reasonable doubt.

Can anyone replay POC 1.0 and have scans that contradict against what Galens provided? I want scans and sources.

And for the sound/video lagging part... Are we using the same level of standard on other online games and mobile games? If yes, then apply such standard accordingly.

There will be other external sites (they may not even be Fandom or Reddit or DeviantArt sites) indexing their own verses and we will be evaluating the validity using our own bases. If we may not be 100% agreeing with other sites, be it fiction verses, or other battle boarding and power indexing sites, it would be our freedom not to use the source from such sites and that is it. No other things need to be done.

But yeah if scans and statements cannot be cross checked then it should not be used for our site.

Kind of sad whenever facing verses outside USA with languages other than English and may have one time events that is hard to counter check.

 

[Qawsedf234]

So are the scans fake?

If the text in Chinese doesn't mention anything that the text in English says then they're unusable in any capacity. Knowingly using them for an upgrade with that knowledge would also be something that will result in a ban.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Galens has posted and clarified misunderstandings. And it turns out that they never liked intentionally fake evidence persay, it's just the information gets updated randomly making it question whether or not it is considered retconned.

I don't think anyone needs to be banned, but I will say I do think the scans are too unreliable to use however.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Galens has posted and clarified misunderstandings. And it turns out that they never liked intentionally fake evidence persay, it's just the information gets updated randomly making it question whether or not it is considered retconned.

I don't think anyone needs to be banned, but I will say I do think the scans are too unreliable to use however.

Isn't that in contrast to what Grath said?

However, there is one piece of evidence that I believe conclusively establishes this case, which is the discrepancy in the footage provided by Galens. I have checked through the footage by Galens, as well as the alternate footage provided in the OP, and footage of the game from several other channels on YouTube - all frame-by-frame, and all cross-referenced thoroughly. In every single piece of footage I have identified that was not recorded by Galens, I can confirm that the artwork on the loading screen does not pop in until a minimum of several frames into the loading screen; there is always an intermediary period in which the loading screen has appeared and the artwork has not loaded in yet. Always, with the one exception of Galens' footage with the scan on the loading screen.

Galens' prior argument, that this was due to stuttering in his game, does not work either. For one, I can find no other discrepancies in Galens' loading screen footage to suggest the game was stuttering during the loading period - the loading screen includes the animation of the neon light flickering, and I can find no sign at all that this animation is lagging or skipping frames. Secondly, in the alternate footage I've found, there have been numerous examples of videos of the game that evidently stutter far more than Galens' footage does, and none of them ever result in skipping the first few frames of the loading screen. Thirdly, if it was even hypothetically possible for frame skipping to occur on the loading screen to produce this effect, I would naturally be expected to have found it at least once by chance - yet, with dozens of examples, I can consistently identify that nothing even remotely similar has occurred.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Isn't that in contrast to what Grath said?

Nvm, I overlooked that. Didn't see the "Loading screen" comparisons. But Grath is correct in this case.

 

[Jasonsith]

If I may be pardoned I may want to do some quick homework (despite my busy day jobs and my personal life) on the DMC manga and see if there are even more scaling issues (or, it would be its own canon separate from games).

ATM it would be safe to:
Wait till the global release to see how much content of the existing POC scans and vids remain valid. I do not see a need to ban people rn.
Let me cook on DMC manga. I will definitely appreciate help from any other people BTW.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

If I may be pardoned I may want to do some quick homework (despite my busy day jobs and my personal life) on the DMC manga and see if there are even more scaling issues (or, it would be its own canon separate from games).

ATM it would be safe to:
Wait till the global release to see how much content of the existing POC scans and vids remain valid. I do not see a need to ban people rn.
Let me cook on DMC manga. I will definitely appreciate help from any other people BTW.

Currently the verse is at 2-C and has been looked at extensively. You are feel free to search more but most content has been examined as the verse is quite old. The whole issue was the game on android and more importantly for us the scans that would raise a 2-C verse to at least 9-D and maybe beyond that.