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Just looked at the video they do ascend upwards but the scene just skips to a black area. I don't agree with MFTL+ Dante and Mundus
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Devil May Cry: Question about Dante's speed
- Thread starter GrimmReaper94
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Hey, can I be allowed to speak? I will try my best to be completely civilised and I'm begging that the guys in charge do the same. Can I please speak on this matter?
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Yeah. You can. Reason that guy got blocked was because he was cursing out AMM
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Thank you Howard. So, you said earlier you could see a point being made, and Redgrave said he agreed it did amount to FTL travel, so I'd like to see if we can look at this and see what it amounts to.
The question here isn't necessarily "are they faster than light"; that's incidental. The question is why did the stars disappear. Collectively we've heard the idea of the edge of the universe, a big bang, ranging to them dashing into a cloud and that obscuring them, none of which I personally think are correct.
Here's the same video Follow Doctor Freeman provided.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0jvwzkwmFn0
I don't know how to make it start at a certain point, so you'll have to bear with me on that one, sorry. If you pause it at 3:40, you'll see empty black space right below the haze and right before Dante enters that haze. It seems as if the stars would be visible there if they were still there, since the stars are very numerous in the previous area, to the point you couldn't look in any direction without seeing any of them.
Edit: the empty space below is visible again at 3:47 and in the other direction at 4:00. It's also worth noting that both in the cutscene and during gameplay there are huge gaps in the haze through which more blackness is visible, with no stars.
Edit 2: Oh and the video Grimm put up skipped a little and the original one I put up is lower quality. This video is the one you want.
Note: I know you've already rejected the feat, but this provides more context to consider, and I'm begging that we discuss it properly, with no abuse or other such garbage from anyone, and look at this info on its own merits. At the very least it's worth considering as a serious topic.
The question here isn't necessarily "are they faster than light"; that's incidental. The question is why did the stars disappear. Collectively we've heard the idea of the edge of the universe, a big bang, ranging to them dashing into a cloud and that obscuring them, none of which I personally think are correct.
Here's the same video Follow Doctor Freeman provided.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0jvwzkwmFn0
I don't know how to make it start at a certain point, so you'll have to bear with me on that one, sorry. If you pause it at 3:40, you'll see empty black space right below the haze and right before Dante enters that haze. It seems as if the stars would be visible there if they were still there, since the stars are very numerous in the previous area, to the point you couldn't look in any direction without seeing any of them.
Edit: the empty space below is visible again at 3:47 and in the other direction at 4:00. It's also worth noting that both in the cutscene and during gameplay there are huge gaps in the haze through which more blackness is visible, with no stars.
Edit 2: Oh and the video Grimm put up skipped a little and the original one I put up is lower quality. This video is the one you want.
Note: I know you've already rejected the feat, but this provides more context to consider, and I'm begging that we discuss it properly, with no abuse or other such garbage from anyone, and look at this info on its own merits. At the very least it's worth considering as a serious topic.
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Oh, and if this is insufficient I have a final suggestion afterwards as back-up, so I'd like to ask the thread not be locked just yet if this is thrown out, if that's okay.
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Bump
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Bump
Someone calculating the lazer feats yet? Or the space flight one?
Someone calculating the lazer feats yet? Or the space flight one?
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@Gargoyle
Those laser feats will likely have to wait for another thread, especially since this thread has been clogged up by Grimm's unruliness. I was hoping to start a thread myself after giving everyone a rest after the top tiers thread, but Grimm forced my hand on the matter.
As for Dante and Mundus, there is absolutely no reason not to give them a MFTL+ rating based on their flight past the stars. I even offered a few alternative feats to discuss so no one would have to worry about calculating them later. I'll concede that the stars are not visible due to the thunderstorm unless Random comes up with something. However, no one has refuted the feat of flying past the stars; the closest thing to an arguement anyone has presented against that is the use of the incredulity fallacy.
Those laser feats will likely have to wait for another thread, especially since this thread has been clogged up by Grimm's unruliness. I was hoping to start a thread myself after giving everyone a rest after the top tiers thread, but Grimm forced my hand on the matter.
As for Dante and Mundus, there is absolutely no reason not to give them a MFTL+ rating based on their flight past the stars. I even offered a few alternative feats to discuss so no one would have to worry about calculating them later. I'll concede that the stars are not visible due to the thunderstorm unless Random comes up with something. However, no one has refuted the feat of flying past the stars; the closest thing to an arguement anyone has presented against that is the use of the incredulity fallacy.
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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0jvwzkwmFn0Follow Doctor Freeman said:
If you pause it at 3:40, you'll see empty black space right below the haze and right before Dante enters that haze. It seems as if the stars would be visible there if they were still there, since the stars are very numerous in the previous area, to the point you couldn't look in any direction without seeing any of them.
The empty space below is visible again at 3:47 and in the other direction behind Mundus at 4:00. It's also worth noting that both in the cutscene and during gameplay there are huge gaps in the haze through which more blackness is visible, with no stars.
The haze obscuring the stars isn't consistent with that empty blackness. That many stars would generate enough light that they'd be at least somewhat detectable. They generated a lot of light in the previous location after all.
I realise I said this before, but there is empty blackness in two seperate directions below them. The stars were generating enough light in the previous location to light it up quite well. So there has to be a reason why there is noticably no light from the stars anywhere in any direction. No-one has properly discussed explanations for this.
Sidenote: the stars moving in the background when Mundus flies may be messy but it still should indicate FTL speed realistically, especially when you consider Asura's Wrath which is made by the same company used that exact same technique to show great speed and it happened during a scene where FTL travel was happening. And considering the Bradygames Guide makes it clear that the whole point of that fight was that it's a battle against a god, it's not ridiculous to think that flight scene was meant to showcase speed.
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They're fighting in the atmosphere, which means what's below them is the planetoid (the magma parts) so it would make sense if you're unable to see the stars below them. But, we should have at least seen some orangey haze due to the magma and all.
It's a confusing ordeal in all honesty.
It's a confusing ordeal in all honesty.
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Ah, thank you. An opportunity to discuss. (I'm not being snarky; I feel genuine relief at this)
Here's the thing. There is utter blackness below them and both behind Dante and behind Mundus. It raises the question: where is the planetoid?
And yes, the light from all that magma should be visible too, if it's that close. In total darkness light really isn't hard to spot when it's there.
And as I said, the stars moving like they did already implies FTL travel, and with a character who can create universes it would be pretty odd if he wasn't that fast, since his projection can expand an entire universe in a few seconds.
Here's the thing. There is utter blackness below them and both behind Dante and behind Mundus. It raises the question: where is the planetoid?
And yes, the light from all that magma should be visible too, if it's that close. In total darkness light really isn't hard to spot when it's there.
And as I said, the stars moving like they did already implies FTL travel, and with a character who can create universes it would be pretty odd if he wasn't that fast, since his projection can expand an entire universe in a few seconds.
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It looks as if we may have to chalk up the deal with the haze and no stars to "dem 2001 ps2 grafix" (even the so-called "HD remake collection" doesn't really change anything), but Random is completely correct in bringing up the matter for discussion. Better to bring it up now from reasonable fellows than later from the unreasonable sort. The flying past the stars feat is perfectly fine to calculate, of course.
Also, I guess I'm going to have to see about starting a thread to add a small handful of abilities seen in my blogs before another Grimm shows up, posts the material in a less coherent fashion than I would, and starts being disrespectful to staff (sorry you had to go through that, AMM). I wanted to give everyone a break from DMC, but I now see that I should bring up these topics before any silly folk muddle the matter. That thread shouldn't have anything so contentious, at least. But that's another topic for another thread.
Also, I guess I'm going to have to see about starting a thread to add a small handful of abilities seen in my blogs before another Grimm shows up, posts the material in a less coherent fashion than I would, and starts being disrespectful to staff (sorry you had to go through that, AMM). I wanted to give everyone a break from DMC, but I now see that I should bring up these topics before any silly folk muddle the matter. That thread shouldn't have anything so contentious, at least. But that's another topic for another thread.
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The dimension that Mundus created in that specific scene is an actual universe, with all the actual stars in it and stuff, correct?
But from what I have seen in the clip, Massively FTL+ Mundus/Dante seems reasonable. However, especially considering we aren't really shown how far both of them went upwards from their starting position, we can't really gauge how fast they are in terms of speed.
@Gargoyle: Just to make sure, we have very specific rules about what are considered lasers and what are not. Are you sure that the lasers that you are talking about are considered real lasers? At least, those attacks being specified as "light" in-game, or those lasers reflecting off mirrors should be good enough proof.
But from what I have seen in the clip, Massively FTL+ Mundus/Dante seems reasonable. However, especially considering we aren't really shown how far both of them went upwards from their starting position, we can't really gauge how fast they are in terms of speed.
@Gargoyle: Just to make sure, we have very specific rules about what are considered lasers and what are not. Are you sure that the lasers that you are talking about are considered real lasers? At least, those attacks being specified as "light" in-game, or those lasers reflecting off mirrors should be good enough proof.
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Regarding the stuff involving stars, you sure it's not a case of perspective? Like, if I angled myself next to lets say the Eifel Tower and jumped it looks like I went over. When in reality I only jumped about like less than a meter or so?
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https://youtu.be/0jvwzkwmFn0?t=382 min 6:22They change course during flight, this is relevant?also, english esn´t my first language so my bad
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Lina Shields,
Well the trick would be to use low and high end measurements, I think.
Minimum: if we assume their position in the universe at the start is similar to earth's we have the distance to the closest star.
Average: average distance between stars. Most stars we see in real life are a few hundred light years away from us.
Maximum: Observable universe. Obviously this is a possibility but a high end.
Well the trick would be to use low and high end measurements, I think.
Minimum: if we assume their position in the universe at the start is similar to earth's we have the distance to the closest star.
Average: average distance between stars. Most stars we see in real life are a few hundred light years away from us.
Maximum: Observable universe. Obviously this is a possibility but a high end.
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I agree with MFTL Dante
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Lina Shields,
Regarding the lasers, in gameplay Dante can dodge and block a burst of light from Beowolf. And Nightmare-B is stated in the Plasma description to shoot light. It's important since Mundus would have created Nightmare-B.
Regarding the lasers, in gameplay Dante can dodge and block a burst of light from Beowolf. And Nightmare-B is stated in the Plasma description to shoot light. It's important since Mundus would have created Nightmare-B.
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Regarding it being perspective, the screen follows Mundus at the same angle for a few seconds while he flies and the stars are zipping by at an alarming speed. So it just being perspective doesn't really fit there.
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On the subject of DMC's speed feat here...Perhaps a detailed reasoning should be written for this.
Dante and Mundus go on a trip
@Cal: Just wondering, in the Mario Kart feat, were the relevant characters in question moving to a different planet when the stars were shown to move? What was the reasoning that stars moving=/=travelling past stars?
Anyways, I should expand on Random-Helper and GrimmReaper's comment here.
3:25.271
3:36.716
As for why Dante/Mundus should be given a faster rating than what they currently have, we have this reason.
For Dante/Mundus to arrive at the atmosphere of a different planet, they must have flown to a different star system, at the very least. Considering that the average distance between one star from another would be a couple light years away, Dante and Mundus flying through that in a couple seconds is solidly Massively FTL+ regardless, although we do not exactly know where Dante/Mundus was in comparison to the nearest star.
Another issue that comes to mind about this theory is that both Dante/Mundus seemed to have moved upwards, and not sideways, thus they most likely went up to a star system that was not shown in the background in the first picture. As for how far this star system is, considering that Dante/Mundus were shown to fly upwards past the stars in the background to somewhere else, it is clear that we are past the stars in the background at that point...
Dante and Mundus go on a trip
@Cal: Just wondering, in the Mario Kart feat, were the relevant characters in question moving to a different planet when the stars were shown to move? What was the reasoning that stars moving=/=travelling past stars?
Anyways, I should expand on Random-Helper and GrimmReaper's comment here.
3:25.271
3:36.716
- At 3:25.271, we see the stars in the background where Mundus is located.
- At 3:36.716, we see no stars in the background.
As for why Dante/Mundus should be given a faster rating than what they currently have, we have this reason.
For Dante/Mundus to arrive at the atmosphere of a different planet, they must have flown to a different star system, at the very least. Considering that the average distance between one star from another would be a couple light years away, Dante and Mundus flying through that in a couple seconds is solidly Massively FTL+ regardless, although we do not exactly know where Dante/Mundus was in comparison to the nearest star.
Another issue that comes to mind about this theory is that both Dante/Mundus seemed to have moved upwards, and not sideways, thus they most likely went up to a star system that was not shown in the background in the first picture. As for how far this star system is, considering that Dante/Mundus were shown to fly upwards past the stars in the background to somewhere else, it is clear that we are past the stars in the background at that point...
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Couldn't it be possible that Dante and Mundus just ascended into layer of clouds created by Mundus?
The main argument I see is that Dante and Mundus move past the stars into an area without stars, but it could just be that Mundus ascended into a nearby cloud he made and Dante followed him. We see that the clouds are actively used to attack Dante after all.
The main argument I see is that Dante and Mundus move past the stars into an area without stars, but it could just be that Mundus ascended into a nearby cloud he made and Dante followed him. We see that the clouds are actively used to attack Dante after all.
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I am okay with giving them Massively FTL+ speeds, reasoning that it requires Dante/Mundus to travel to another star system in order to land on a different planet.
Edit: Not sure if the exact degree of MFTL+ can be qualified, however.
Edit: Not sure if the exact degree of MFTL+ can be qualified, however.
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Maybe just give a rough extent or minimum for which area of FTL? Or would that just end up being redundant? A couple light years in a couple seconds is thousands of times light speed at least, right?
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- Nearest star to Earth is Proxima Centauri, which is 4.2 light years away
- Divide that by 5 (or 2, if it was Dante) and you get 0.84 LY (2.1 LY) away
- 1 LY = 31536000 times SoL
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Yeah. Sounds fair. Okay, thanks for clearing that up.
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huh well that was slightly higher than i though but that's cool
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I'm still not convinced, sorry.
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I can dig the new speed placement
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So wait have we decided they were on a plantoid or not. I don't know if AMM's point was addressed.
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@Dragonmaster: My response to AMM's comment is that by flying to the atmosphere from another planet, they would have flown to a different star system in order to do so, at least.
Dante/Mundus didn't run the Big Bang or whatever because there was no massive explosion at the center of the universe at the time of Dante/Mundus' flight.
Dante/Mundus didn't run the Big Bang or whatever because there was no massive explosion at the center of the universe at the time of Dante/Mundus' flight.
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Wait I don't quite understand to reach the atmosphere of another planet wouldn't they just need to fly to another planet? I'm lost here. Why does it require another star system?Lina Shields said:
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IT shouldn't. Also, I think that there was a loading screen, so we have no timeframe.
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- You don't see any planets in the background, or anywhere really (only stars)
- Said planets usually orbit around those star systems (which means they can't be all that far from that particular star system)
- Said star system is many light years away from where Dante/Mundus were standing (which is in the nowhere of outer space)
@Cal: Feat starts at 3:35 in the video. There were no loading screens.
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Huh. You're right. No loading screen.
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I also agree with Lina.
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