Demonbane 1-As downgrade

[QuasiYuri]

At first, I just wanted to make a huge thread about it but realized that all of the proofs for the downgrade are either in the page of the verse or in the explanation page , so anything I'll said come from both of these.

Demonbane's current 1-A rating (and why it's wrong)
So, I looked at the only profiles with justifications (most of Demonbane's profiles doesn't have one at all, but it's another problem), and it's just... vague for the ones with proofs.

Yog Sototh's justification is based on one scan who says that he's the essence of space-time and stuff "outreaches fancy and mathematics alike". It doesn't give anything other than 2-A (at best) based on this, and given that Demonbane use a lot of flowery langage, I'm not sure if we should consider the mathematics part as a fact or just part of it.

The second one is Kurou, who has 4 scans as proof! However they can easily be resumed by:

1) Stated to be beyond causality and dimensions. However it refers to giving Liber Legis, and even if we don't consider it as a flowery langage; there's no scale given and just a "to go beyond dimension and causality" which is very vague.

2)Transcending space and time. However no scale is given here and it seems to refers to "the dimensionnal quake" saving Liber Legis.

3)Defeating a monster stated to transcend dimensions. It's even more vague than the first scan.

4)Being higher than someone "beyond all of existence" and who clashed with Nyalarthotep. I didn't translated this scan tbh, but Nya in her profile has a "fought with Kurou", so it seems like a pretty weird scaling here and being "beyond all of existence" is again a vague statement, which seems to not be a fact since it's still below Azatoth.

To resume: Most/Every proof on their profile aren't really giving any real reason for 1-A rating, even more in the new system which is more strict and have criterias that Demonbane doesn't seems to have here. It's also the same for the verse page scans (Outer/Elder Gods part) which show at best 4D statements.

The new proposal
Now I'll base myself on the proof we actually have thanks to the scans on the wiki.

I think the Elder Gods and Outer Gods should be Low 2-C or At Least Low 2-C, with the Shining Trapezohedron and the strongest Outer Gods being 2-A; here's the reasonning:

For Low 2-C, we first have all of the statements about transcending space and time (and dimensions) that you can see before as well as statements such as Nya being above 3-dimensionnality or the Klein Bottle, which is actually a time-looped universe, the mechas also were able to overcome it.

Also, in case some people will say that the Klein Bottle is Infinit-Dimensionnal because of the "inside other universe" statement: a similar is used as a flowery langage to talk about parallel univers, Nya's explanation is way more clear, and it's supposed to be a "hypothetical" statement.

For the 2-A rating, the very thing about Shining Trapezohedron is that it seals by using infinite parallel universes, and can also be used to destroy said seal.Azatoth and Yog Sototh own statements should also make them 2-A.

Also, while I know about the note on the verse page: most of Jin's twitter comments support this too. Things like "he likely misrembers" and "he isn't very good in english" aren't really a good reason to ignore them, since I'm pretty sure we already used twitter statements for verses such as DC comics (I may be wrong on this tho).

If I didn't gave enough link for my explanations, it's either on the verse page or on the explanation blog/page.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Bump

 

[QuasiYuri]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

You should ask the active members listed in the Demonbane (Verse) page to comment here.

 

[Ogbunabali]

I remember there was another thread about 1-A Demonbane a while back, and from what I recall, there wasn't anything beyond 2-A there either. So unless someone brings anything new to the table I support the 2-A ratings, maybe Low 1-C if there's enough context to the scans about transcending space and time.

 

[-BANLK-]

There was a time when people used to believe that Elder God Demonbane "could eat omnipotents for breakfast", "strongest being in fiction" infact there was even a meme that, no matter how strong your OC is EGD can defeat it with ease. How far the mighty have fallen lol.

 

[DarkGrath]

I mean

I feel like a lot of this needs a bit more context to properly evaluate. Like, what was the exact context behind things like "being beyond all existence"? If the problem is that there isn't any context; then the downgrade should probably go through. Just like, while I understand the need to keep things simple and concise, the OP here doesn't really give much info about the currently used statements and feats.

 

[QuasiYuri]

The currently used statements and feats are just statement without context behind them or with a context that doesn't give any tier 1 stuff, Idk what kind of info I can give for the ones used. You can look the links on Kurou's profile to see the scans

 

[Antvasima]

You should ask the active members listed in the Demonbane (Verse) page to comment here.

 

[QuasiYuri]

I already asked.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

You can tell them that I would appreciate their help. You can also use the Knowledgeable Members List.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

I'll be honest, I'm not very knowledgeable on Demonbane, but I'll give me thoughts. Slapping the "its just flowery language" critique seems like a bit of a hollow cop out, unless you wanna give more detail for why this is the case. Being beyond dimension and causality doesn't sound that vague to me, unless that is some one off statement that exists in a vacuum. Given that it doesn't say "a" dimension or dimensions (pural), you can tell that they are not talking about anything like the alternate reality or universe meaning of dimension. In addition, the fact that this verse has already shown to deal with higher dimensions only adds to it. Saying that they exist beyond space and time not giving a scale seems like an odd critique, because that itself sounds like a statement of scale, so unless they are refering to purely linear time that they are transcending, it shouldn't be that hard to understand. Also, that multiverse you are talking about seems to be somewhat layered due to the universes being chained within eachother, but maybe that's just me

 

[QuasiYuri]

Demonbane is more about euclidian geometry, and I'm pretty sure no character would get a 1-A rating with the current reasons.

Also there's the fact that a huge part of the VN takes place in the Klein Bottle, which is a time looping universe, with Nya and Yog (his avatar) saying the "time is meaningless" to refers to this. The "transcend time and space" was even used for being saved by a kind of wormhole, that's why I say that it's flowery language except if someone show a context which prove otherwise.

(The only active knowledgeable member is Matthew btw, and I already send him a message)

 

[Antvasima]

You should ask Sleepy/ALRF to comment here. He rewrote our Demonbane pages.

 

[Ravenous4th]

Please don't. Alf has told me in our private chat that he doesn't want to be bothered with any revision - especially with Demonbane. Please leave him be, at least for now. He already has a lot to worry about in real life.

Additionally, he doesn't have enough energy to care whether the verse stays 1-A or not. He personally thinks that his previous revision wouldn't put Demonbane at 1-A after taking the new tiering system into account anyway.

 

[QuasiYuri]

I removed the mess.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

So, from what I've heard a while ago during the most recent Demonbane revisions, the Klein Bottle, the construct that was supposedly High 1-B for containing an infinite hierarchy of universes within bigger universes, was actually really wanked and is just a time-looped universe, instead.

That severely handicaps Demonbane's chances at staying 1-A, the way things are as of now. The only statement that might support an 1-A rating is this one, which even then, still gives no elaboration on said transcendence and has too little context overall, so it sounds pretty Low 1-C to me. There's apparently other statements regarding Cthulhu and Whateley transcending dimensions, but I'd have to see their context first, before saying anything concrete.

Overall, with the High 1-B Klein Bottle out of the field, Demonbane sounds pretty much Low 1-C to 1-C, given all of the statements about the Elder and Outer Gods transcending causality and space-time, as well as Yog encompassing all of existence yet existing beyond it as an abstraction that transcends mathematics, and Azathoth seeing it all as a dream.

 

[Antvasima]

@Ravenous

Okay then, but I do not think that we should rewrite our statistics without very in-depth knowledge of the series, and I think that Sleepy is the only one here who has that.

 

[Viddumagee]

So, I've played Zanmataisei and can say that a 2-A rating would be more viable for Kurou, Nya and Demonbane + those who scale. I have discussed a couple instances from the VN that would be the clearest pieces of evidence for 1-A Demonbane with TheMonsterOfTheAbyss and concluded that within the sites current tiering system the characters wouldn't reach 1-A, although if anyone knowledgeable on dimensionality wants to have a look I can send the scans.

2-A on the other hand is more well supported within the verse. I've been thinking about revising the verse here for a bit since despite receiving downgrades tier wise, the verse would be getting hax upgrades. I just never got around to doing that but this seems like a nice situation to start up a discussion regarding it. Please note that the sequel VN, which apparently features more emphasis on cosmology and higher dimensional entities is untranslated though.

 

[Antvasima]

@Ultima

Okay. Thank you for the evaluation, but it would require in-depth knowledge to rewrite the Demonbane Explanation Page and all of the relevant profiles, as well as the Demonbane (Verse) page. We can't just let the explanations remain as they are and change the statistics.

 

[Ravenous4th]

@Ant

Well, Sleepy has changed his mind and said that he might provide an input. I suppose we can wait for him.

 

[QuasiYuri]

That severely handicaps Demonbane's chances at staying 1-A, the way things are as of now. The only statement that might support an 1-A rating is this one, which even then, still gives no elaboration on said transcendence and has too little context overall, so it sounds pretty Low 1-C to me. There's apparently other statements regarding Cthulhu and Whateley transcending dimensions, but I'd have to see their context first, before saying anything concrete.

Overall, with the High 1-B Klein Bottle out of the field, Demonbane sounds pretty much Low 1-C to 1-C, given all of the statements about the Elder and Outer Gods transcending causality and space-time, as well as Yog encompassing all of existence yet existing beyond it as an abstraction that transcends mathematics, and Azathoth seeing it all as a dream.

Most of the space-time statements are at the scale of the Klein Bottle tho, as seen for this one.

Irrc the Light Novel has a possible Low 1-C feat tho.

 

[Antvasima]

@Ravenous

Okay. Thank you for the help.

 

[QuasiYuri]

@Ultima
Okay. Thank you for the evaluation, but it would require in-depth knowledge to rewrite the Demonbane Explanation Page and all of the relevant profiles, as well as the Demonbane (Verse) page. We can't just let the explanations remain as they are and change the statistics.

The Explanation Page don't mention anything 1-A or tier 1 and only shows tier 2, so I don't think it needs a very big rewriting (most of the info I used come from here).

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Most of the space-time statements are at the scale of the Klein Bottle tho, as seen for this one.

Irrc the Light Novel has a possible Low 1-C feat tho.

Existing above the concepts of space-time is Low 1-C. Assuming it is done in relation to a 4-dimensional reality, that is.

 

[SleepyTBubble]

@Ultima

In another note, How do we rate feats in which a character rip apart a higher dimensional plane that is beyond euclidian geometry too?.

As for the Whateley dimension statement, it is stated in conjunction with the above scan i just linked. Since his statement came after the revelation of Another Blood newly created world which came by merging infinite other possibilities, also containing higher dimensional planes

>Most of the space-time statements are at the scale of the Klein Bottle tho, as seen for this one.

No. By that end, Klein Bottle was no more. This is not in relation to KB in anyway or form

This is quite evident with the fact Augustus doesn't learn of the fact he was a Nyarlathotep avatar till after the events of Zanma Taisei Demonbane which again, at that point, Klein Bottle is no more.

 

[Viddumagee]

We get this piece of exposition regarding the Court of Chaos that Nyarlathotep embodies and which transcends the multiverse, which based on some current statements would be like 2-A ig. Just wanted to share this here since it's pretty important I'd say.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

@Sleepy

"Higher-dimensional plane" is a really vague descriptor all by itself. Is there more context as to the nature of said plane? It being non-euclidean doesn't really contribute to tiering, either, it just means it's structurally weird and doesn't follow Euclid's postulates.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

I'm just going to say that the burden of proof for those statements being flowery language falls on YuriAkuto, as in he has to prove them rather than have them disproven.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

We get this piece of exposition regarding the Court of Chaos that Nyarlathotep embodies and which transcends the multiverse, which based on some current statements would be like 2-A ig. Just wanted to share this here since it's pretty important I'd say.

Embodying a void of nothingness which transcends a 2-A multiverse would be Low 1-C, actually.

 

[SleepyTBubble]

nah sadly there isn't much else to it

Figured as much either way that they would be Low 1-Cish or something like that with the new tiering

 

[QuasiYuri]

I'm just going to say that the burden of proof for those statements being flowery language falls on YuriAkuto, as in he has to prove them rather than have them disproven.

I explained the reason with example + the fact that it was vague tho.

I only talked about flowery language for one statement too.

 

[Viddumagee]

We get this piece of exposition regarding the Court of Chaos that Nyarlathotep embodies and which transcends the multiverse, which based on some current statements would be like 2-A ig. Just wanted to share this here since it's pretty important I'd say.

Embodying a void of nothingness which transcends a 2-A multiverse would be Low 1-C, actually.

Then Nya, Elder God Kurou, Elder God Al Azif and the Shining Trapezohedron would be Low 1-C. We then have Yog Sothoth which transcends Nya and the Court of Chaos and then Azathoth which is at the top of the hierarchy and dreams of the ones below it.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Just realized that the Klein Bottle was destroyed after the absorption of the 2 Shining Trapezohedron.

I agree with 2-A or Low 1-C, Mars Demonbane also have a feat of reaching a "Super Dimension" with "Super Space and Super Time".

 

[SleepyTBubble]

I am against Mars rating because the english translation was done by using the Korean translation of the novel instead of the original (Japanese) one.

 

[Viddumagee]

Not sure if "super dimension" is of any validity due to how vague of a term that is. The LN is untranslated anyways, or english copies are just extinct. Either way I'm not sure if it's a reliable source as of now, and I have no idea how to scale it to Zanmataisei.

 

[SleepyTBubble]

Yeah it's pretty much unreliable

 

[Antvasima]

@Sleepy

Thank you for helping out.