- 12,524
- 3,492
- Thread starter
- #161
Oh no, the analogy still proves that being described as a threat to something isn't an AP feat.Hykuu said:
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Debunking Bill Cipher's 2-A tier + Axolotl downgrade
- Thread starter ShadowWarrior1999
- Start date
- Status
- 85
- 17
When it comes to the "threat" part, while I'm not 100% against it, it does feel a bit vague and it's up to interpretation. That's why I feel like a "possibly" or "likely" would be safer but whatever.Hykuu said:
- 825
- 109
What GiverOfPeace said and you make more outright assumptions saying the other Bills are responsible if we play Devil's Advocate when the still far safer conclusion would literally be that he's still 2-A, you've not disproven anything thus far at all.ShadowWarrior1999 said:
- 825
- 109
Not really, this is about on the same level as trying to debunk Creation equaling Destruction in Attack Potency by saying I can build a house but I'm not Building level.ShadowWarrior1999 said:
- 2,459
- 486
When it comes to the "threat" part, while I'm not 100% against it, it does feel a bit vague and it's up to interpretation. That's why I feel like a "possibly" or "likely" would be safer but whatever.
Feel free to suggest anything, we'll probably conclude what tier it is sooner or later.
Feel free to suggest anything, we'll probably conclude what tier it is sooner or later.
- 5,554
- 2,329
Because that's not how real life dimensions work, and if you want it to scale of off real life dimensions you need to prove that they work like real life dimensions, and that statement works against your argument.GiverOfThePeace said:
That's not Occam's razor if it's blatantly false.
- 85
- 17
It could either mean "Bill is a threat to any universe in the infinite multiverse due to his power, making him a threat to the multiverse", or "He's a threat to the multiverse because he is able to destroy the whole multiverse with his power". That's either Low 2-C or 2-A.
Honestly, I'm in for "At least Low 2-C, possibly 2-A.", but I could still see some argument to convince me otherwise.
Honestly, I'm in for "At least Low 2-C, possibly 2-A.", but I could still see some argument to convince me otherwise.
- 3,904
- 684
https://www.universetoday.com/48619/a-universe-of-10-dimensions/Ogbunabali said:
Their described as flat, Bill's literal appearance is a triangle, he calls the dimension th "2nd dimension", it does work like real life dimensions you just refuse to believe it. You can't call something "false" because you can't argue againt occam's razor.
- 5,554
- 2,329
Ogbunabali said:
- 3,904
- 684
Nice, I refuted that.
- 15,436
- 7,857
I'm going neutral for now, there is an actual debate to be had here.
- 85
- 17
"Try living in the 2nd dimension!" - Bill Cipher
He kind of makes it clear.
He kind of makes it clear.
- 9,528
- 1,823
I've always felt that if someone like Ajimu Najimi is rated unknown for a few inconsistencies maybe bill should be to it would stop the constant crts
- 5,554
- 2,329
You didn't refute anything. Ok since you can't understand how dimensions work it's like this.
The third dimensions doesn't exist independently of the second dimension, the same way the fourth dimension doesn't exist independently from the third dimension ad infinium.
If our world, right now, had a fourth dimension it wouldn't exist in another bubble universe somewhere, it would be right in front of your face, you would just be unable to perceive it, interact with it, see it, imagine it etc.
Bill can't "liberate" and "come from" the second dimension because that would imply that the second dimension exist independently of the third dimension, which isn't how real life works.
In order for Bill to do those things he would either have to have come from a world that's only two dimensional, or if he did actually came from the second dimension, that would mean he wasn't talking about the spacial dimension type.
The third dimensions doesn't exist independently of the second dimension, the same way the fourth dimension doesn't exist independently from the third dimension ad infinium.
If our world, right now, had a fourth dimension it wouldn't exist in another bubble universe somewhere, it would be right in front of your face, you would just be unable to perceive it, interact with it, see it, imagine it etc.
Bill can't "liberate" and "come from" the second dimension because that would imply that the second dimension exist independently of the third dimension, which isn't how real life works.
In order for Bill to do those things he would either have to have come from a world that's only two dimensional, or if he did actually came from the second dimension, that would mean he wasn't talking about the spacial dimension type.
- 3,904
- 684
Ajimu is rated as unknown due to being a gag manga so they don't know if they can take her statements seriously.
Bill's 2-A statements are backed up by author, time baby, official books, etc.
Bill's 2-A statements are backed up by author, time baby, official books, etc.
- 3,904
- 684
Ok what even are some of these refutes? Guess Mxy can't be 5D anymore since he comes from the 5th dimension and liberated it.
You're as usual nitpicking to an extreme extent, so many fictional verses with their dimensions do not follow this I don't know why we're suddenly putting this on gravity falls, all this would mean is Alex(the writer of GF) doesn't fully know how a spatial dimension is supposed to work but every point of the story and alex is clearly meant to be a spatial dimension, not a parallel universe.
You're as usual nitpicking to an extreme extent, so many fictional verses with their dimensions do not follow this I don't know why we're suddenly putting this on gravity falls, all this would mean is Alex(the writer of GF) doesn't fully know how a spatial dimension is supposed to work but every point of the story and alex is clearly meant to be a spatial dimension, not a parallel universe.
- 5,554
- 2,329
Well first of all we're not talking about other verses, we're talking about GF. And, no, Mxy comes from a 5th dimensional world, same as Darkseid and all others. And the writer's ignorance doesn't make the verse somehow immune to revising.
- 3,904
- 684
Doesn't matter if we're talking about GF, I'm showing you that this is a common issue if you're going to pin it to one verse, the majority of fiction would need to be changed with this. It actually does when literally every point and explanation is pointed to be the 2nd dimension. You're attempting to nitpick. Once again. Either show me objective outright contradiction of him being a 2 dimensional being even though from a story, author, and statement perspective he's fully implied and inclined to be one during that scene that doesn't devolve too "Oh well dimensions don't exist independently from each other". Literally that liberate scene could just mean he became a 3rd dimensional being in itself and destroyed the 2D axis he exists on.
- 5,554
- 2,329
I literally never said he isn't a 2D being, I just said he didn't come from the second dimension.
- 85
- 17
Wasn't he from a 2D species or something?
- 3,904
- 684
From the way your arguments were being presented I assumed that so my bad, as long as you agree he's 2D lol.
- 12,524
- 3,492
- Thread starter
- #185
I think what Ogbunabali says confirms that Bill was referring to universes when he talked about dimensions.
Now, the main arguments for Bill being 2-A is "how could Bill be a threat to infinite realities if he's Low 2-C?" Again, threat doesn't mean that he can or will destroy it. He is a threat to the multiverse because he can travel to any of the infinite realities he so desires to and cause havoc in them. In that sense he is a threat to the multiverse because any of the universes in it could be next on his radar.
Now, the main arguments for Bill being 2-A is "how could Bill be a threat to infinite realities if he's Low 2-C?" Again, threat doesn't mean that he can or will destroy it. He is a threat to the multiverse because he can travel to any of the infinite realities he so desires to and cause havoc in them. In that sense he is a threat to the multiverse because any of the universes in it could be next on his radar.
- 40,470
- 12,953
Cal, do you agree or disagree with this thread?
I couldn't care less at this point.
I couldn't care less at this point.
- 12,828
- 3,995
Both sides bring good arguments. Neutral for now, leaning towards keeping 2-A a little bit.
- 15,332
- 7,563
No offense, but this smells like an extremely, hyperrandom of a downgrade with the gigantic amount of semantics thrown in.
"He understood the threat that Cipher posed to the wider multiverse."
There is absolutely no sense of describing a threat to a "wider multiverse" when said multiverse is infinite to begin with. It's no different than arguing that, say, Character A could be High 6-A via being a threat to the "wider planet", despite the fact that said planet is an infinite planet.
It gets even more telling with the next part, where it specifically mentions saving the multiverse from Bill's wrath. The standard assumption there is that it's a general statement referring to the whole multiverse, not just a, especially in the context of infinity, a nonsensical and impossible "fraction" of it.
"He understood the threat that Cipher posed to the wider multiverse."
There is absolutely no sense of describing a threat to a "wider multiverse" when said multiverse is infinite to begin with. It's no different than arguing that, say, Character A could be High 6-A via being a threat to the "wider planet", despite the fact that said planet is an infinite planet.
It gets even more telling with the next part, where it specifically mentions saving the multiverse from Bill's wrath. The standard assumption there is that it's a general statement referring to the whole multiverse, not just a, especially in the context of infinity, a nonsensical and impossible "fraction" of it.
- 6,497
- 404
Then he should have a solid 2-A key. No likelies, possiblies or anything else
- 15,332
- 7,563
> So 2-A right? While Gravity Falls does indeed have a 2-A multiverse, being a threat to it isn't an AP feat. It's much akin to how a corrupt government isn't 6-B because "they are a threat to their country."
And this goes up there as a really bad analogy. How can you possibly equate a quote like "saving the [infinite] multiverse from X's wrath" to something like a corrupt president threatening to bankrupt a finite country? Whenever they talk about Bill destroying a dimension, they specifically mean that he's going to rip it apart. Thus, the context should be the same.
And this goes up there as a really bad analogy. How can you possibly equate a quote like "saving the [infinite] multiverse from X's wrath" to something like a corrupt president threatening to bankrupt a finite country? Whenever they talk about Bill destroying a dimension, they specifically mean that he's going to rip it apart. Thus, the context should be the same.
- 15,332
- 7,563
> You don't have to entirely destroy the space-time of a place to be a threat to it. Bill coming into random universes and doing Low 2-C stuff would still be considered a threat to the multiverse. Assuming that this means he can 2-A bust is the highest interpretation you could get from that.
No, it would not. A Low 2-C wouldn't be considered a threat that the multiverse needed to be saved from.
To put into perspective, this'd be like if I had an infinite universe, someone said that a villain's wrath would be a threat to the universe, and someone argued that it just meant he'd "do 3-C stuff." In other words, makes literally no sense, depends on semantics, and murders Occam's Razor.
No, it would not. A Low 2-C wouldn't be considered a threat that the multiverse needed to be saved from.
To put into perspective, this'd be like if I had an infinite universe, someone said that a villain's wrath would be a threat to the universe, and someone argued that it just meant he'd "do 3-C stuff." In other words, makes literally no sense, depends on semantics, and murders Occam's Razor.
- 6,497
- 404
I agree with Kep.
Bill should go back to
11-A | Low 2-C to 2-A
Bill should go back to
11-A | Low 2-C to 2-A
- 12,524
- 3,492
- Thread starter
- #196
"Wrath" doesn't indicate that Bill is able to destroy the multiverse. It can also just mean he's causing chaos, especially when Bill said he has "alternate realities to tamper with." Doesn't imply destruction there.
Destroying a dimension, yes that justifies him being Low 2-C, not 2-A.
At best this is just 2-A range with dimensional travel, not an AP feat.
Destroying a dimension, yes that justifies him being Low 2-C, not 2-A.
At best this is just 2-A range with dimensional travel, not an AP feat.
- 15,441
- 5,031
I just checked my original downgrade thread done for the same reasons, Ryu and Azzy pretty much rejected that by using the same reasons Kep's using here.
- 15,332
- 7,563
There is absolutely no reason not to consider it as such considering the surrounding context in the given paragraphs. The first paragraph literally specifies that the character's dimension was safe, but the wider multiverse wasn't. That's just trying to mess up with semantics at this point.
No such thing as "it's just 2-A dimensional travel range!" when Bill would end up destroying the multiverse. This is an invented double standard.
No such thing as "it's just 2-A dimensional travel range!" when Bill would end up destroying the multiverse. This is an invented double standard.
- 6,198
- 16,504
Ford wanting to "save the Multiverse from [Bill]'s wrath" wouldn't make sense as a statement if it was just referring to Bill causing havok throughout a strictly finite number of realities (i.e an infinitesimally small part of the infinite Multiverse as a whole), as Kep pointed out.
So, yeah, I disagree 100%
So, yeah, I disagree 100%
- 6,497
- 404
Yes, so if Bill was going to destroy the multiverse, he shouldn't just be 2-A via the DR. He should be a solid 2-A again
- Status
