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Let's not turn this into a Gravity Falls vs Sonic flame war please.
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Debunking Bill Cipher's 2-A tier + Axolotl downgrade
- Thread starter ShadowWarrior1999
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^Dziga said:
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If this thread is calm now can we not throw around "wanked" from other verses just because a certain person with their pfp happens to like said verse. That's pretty petty and childish.
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"So 2-A right? While Gravity Falls does indeed have a 2-A multiverse, being a threat to it isn't an AP feat. It's much akin to how a corrupt government isn't 6-B because "they are a threat to their country."
Here's the difference, the term threat differs on a multiversal scale and a country level scale, this analogy would only work if the case was conquering here, alsoa corrupt government being a threat to their country is more so them making themselves vulnerable in any means, the way the term threat here is obviously destruction, and if Bill is the corrupt government in your analogy he'd still have full control over the multiverse, as the country in your analogy was the multiverse in context.
This is the "alexander the great conquered a continent but he isn't continent level" analogy essentially, but in a case where it doesn't apply, it's a complete false analogy in general.
if we look at the scan, it says that he would "save the multiverse from bills wrath", this either suggests that Bill would eventually have control over or destroy the multiverse if he achieves full power. There is no 3rd option here, overtime isn't a thing as the multiverse is infinite.
Here's the difference, the term threat differs on a multiversal scale and a country level scale, this analogy would only work if the case was conquering here, alsoa corrupt government being a threat to their country is more so them making themselves vulnerable in any means, the way the term threat here is obviously destruction, and if Bill is the corrupt government in your analogy he'd still have full control over the multiverse, as the country in your analogy was the multiverse in context.
This is the "alexander the great conquered a continent but he isn't continent level" analogy essentially, but in a case where it doesn't apply, it's a complete false analogy in general.
if we look at the scan, it says that he would "save the multiverse from bills wrath", this either suggests that Bill would eventually have control over or destroy the multiverse if he achieves full power. There is no 3rd option here, overtime isn't a thing as the multiverse is infinite.
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You don't have to entirely destroy the space-time of a place to be a threat to it. Bill coming into random universes and doing Low 2-C stuff would still be considered a threat to the multiverse. Assuming that this means he can 2-A bust is the highest interpretation you could get from that.
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All derailment in GF threads should be outright removed, no one relevant can keep up with all those threads. The results? Bill once more has Low 2-C dura via the feat that his profile claims is 2-A and his new render is trash. I entered here and what do I see, "At this point, downgrading Bill is just a meme. ovo". What kind of attitude do you guys even expect in response after killing a professional environment?
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"Save the multiverse from Bill's wrath" is very open to interpretation. It isn't the same as actually being able to destroy it or have power over it. Bill has the ability to travel to other universes. In this sense he's still a general threat to the multiverse because he is able to transport himself to any reality he so desires to in order to wreak havoc.
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"You don't have to entirely destroy the space-time of a place to be a threat to it. Bill coming into random universes and doing Low 2-C stuff would still be considered a threat to the multiverse."
He'd still establish absolute control over either way, and being a threat to a multiverse in its entirety is 2-A regardless, basing off stanford's wording, Bill is a threat in a literal sense, hell, you do realize how many characters would be downgraded via this logic, right? and again, why would stanford care if bill was just ravaging universes one by one, when the chance of him threatening someone else's dimension is infinitely small (according to you, if he's going one by one), then why would stanford make the "oh well his dimension is protected from bill so" statement?
" is the highest interpretation you could get from that." I'm not going any higher.
He'd still establish absolute control over either way, and being a threat to a multiverse in its entirety is 2-A regardless, basing off stanford's wording, Bill is a threat in a literal sense, hell, you do realize how many characters would be downgraded via this logic, right? and again, why would stanford care if bill was just ravaging universes one by one, when the chance of him threatening someone else's dimension is infinitely small (according to you, if he's going one by one), then why would stanford make the "oh well his dimension is protected from bill so" statement?
" is the highest interpretation you could get from that." I'm not going any higher.
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He's a real threat to the Multiverse that contains infinite realities by destroying one at a time, that logic is totally flawless tbh.
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"In this sense he's still a general threat to the multiverse because he is able to transport himself to any reality he so desires to in order to wreak havoc."
"why would stanford care if bill was just ravaging universes one by one, when the chance of him threatening someone else's dimension is infinitely small (according to you, if he's going one by one), then why would stanford make the "oh well his dimension is protected from bill so" statement?"
refer to this, also the term "threat" in here can again be him turning the entire multiverse into a state of weirdmageddon, or having absolute control over it, hence the term "wider" mutliverse, also, he liberated the entire 2nd dimension, we can assume off that he's planning to do that to the 3rd and 4th, right? which obviously isn't possible if we go off the "wrecking havoc one by one" idea.
"why would stanford care if bill was just ravaging universes one by one, when the chance of him threatening someone else's dimension is infinitely small (according to you, if he's going one by one), then why would stanford make the "oh well his dimension is protected from bill so" statement?"
refer to this, also the term "threat" in here can again be him turning the entire multiverse into a state of weirdmageddon, or having absolute control over it, hence the term "wider" mutliverse, also, he liberated the entire 2nd dimension, we can assume off that he's planning to do that to the 3rd and 4th, right? which obviously isn't possible if we go off the "wrecking havoc one by one" idea.
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After the recent arguments I'm changing my opinion back to 2-A being legit.
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What do you mean by this?Hykuu said:
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If the second dimension is a place that you can "go to" and "liberate" it, like it is its own realm, then it probably isn't using the word "dimension" in spacial dimension way, rather the alternate universe way.
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Ok, so 2-A Bill sounds a bit more legit to me now.
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Being a threat to a collection of X doesn't mean you're able to threaten the entire collection of X at once.
This could easily mean that Bill is just able to potentially threaten any universes in the multiverse, not that he's able to threaten ALL of them. Difference between "everything" and "anything". Doesn't help that "threat" is still extremely vague and does not carry any connotation of complete space-time destruction.
This could easily mean that Bill is just able to potentially threaten any universes in the multiverse, not that he's able to threaten ALL of them. Difference between "everything" and "anything". Doesn't help that "threat" is still extremely vague and does not carry any connotation of complete space-time destruction.
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Yeah, but that's not how dimensions work in real life is all I'm saying. He may originate form a universe that's only 2D, but he can't originate from the second dimension.
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Also Gravity Falls uses dimensions to refer to universes and spatial ones. Assuming Bill would takeover the entire 4th dimension is extrapolation and going by the highest possible interpretation when the context from Time Baby's statement is that dimension in this case refers to the universe.
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Yes because being a threat to a infinite amount of universes makes sense if you take 3 at a time, you'll surely destroy the infinite multiverse in no time!Saikou The Lewd King said:
refer to point 1, there is no difference between anything and everything in the scans, it's flat out stated he's a threat to the multiverse, not X places in it.
Oh, so destroying a space time continuum isn't destroying space time? gotcha.
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Pretty sure that tear in this dimension destroys fabric of existence statement just further supports how much of a threat bill is.
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Here's the thing. Bill is never stated to be able to destroy the entire multiverse. He's only a threat to it.
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I will have to agree with Hykuu here honestly.
Bill could be destroying like 10^100 amount of universes at once and he still isn't going to be a true threat to the Multiverse if it's infinite. Because common sense should dictate we assume the fact he's outright 2-A for it. If an author is going to write "threat to the multiverse," where it's consistent there are infinite universes, what do you think the logical thought process would be? Assuming that he destroys arbitrary universes at once which wouldn't even matter in the signature scheme of things because that number of infinity will never decrease or the general idea that Bill will actually destroy all of it in its entirety if he's not stopped. Literally, the only way around that would be arguing something like Infinite Duplication hax which is something Bill clearly doesn't have, so the logical conclusion we draw is he's 2-A.
Bill could be destroying like 10^100 amount of universes at once and he still isn't going to be a true threat to the Multiverse if it's infinite. Because common sense should dictate we assume the fact he's outright 2-A for it. If an author is going to write "threat to the multiverse," where it's consistent there are infinite universes, what do you think the logical thought process would be? Assuming that he destroys arbitrary universes at once which wouldn't even matter in the signature scheme of things because that number of infinity will never decrease or the general idea that Bill will actually destroy all of it in its entirety if he's not stopped. Literally, the only way around that would be arguing something like Infinite Duplication hax which is something Bill clearly doesn't have, so the logical conclusion we draw is he's 2-A.
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He wouldn't need to be stated to do that since Time Baby's fabric of existence statement basically backs up why Bill is a threat to it. "Multiverrse won't be able to survive his wrath" is also clearly referring to him destroying it.
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We've already explained why that's openly irrelevant, he might as well have to be 2-A to actually be considered a threat to it.ShadowWarrior1999 said:
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That's not really an excuse.Hykuu said:
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How is it being fiction and not being 100% accurate to how reallife would describe something, not be a good reasoning? Bill describes the dimension as flat and you can see from the fact that his shape represents a triangle, a 2 dimensional object, that he's suspposed to be a 2nd dimensional being. Everything you've argued thus far is nitpicking something. Occam's razor. He's stated to come from the 2nd dimension and descrbies it as flat, it's referring to a spatial dimension.Ogbunabali said:
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Beacuse it completely contradicts how this entire site works. If we handwaved everything with "it's fiction" then we'd be a laughing stock.GiverOfThePeace said:
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Can't we just "At least Low 2-C, possibly 2-A" the heck out of it and call it a day?- 3,904
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So did you ignore most of the comment where I mentioned why "it's fiction" can work here?The Wright Way said:
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That infinite thing is actually referring to his time in the nightmare/mind realm. So that has nothing to do with his true form.ShadowWarrior1999 said:
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