DEATHBATTLE! Accuracy Scale [Part 3] | Part 4: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Thread:3692177

[Rin_The_Dragon_Empress]

For some reason people think that Natsu is the only one who can absorb fire, Ace can do the same. Both have Resistance to fire on a similar level so that won't be worth much. Ultimately it would come down to hand to hand in which I can see Ace having the advantage there since he can fight those with precog and enhanced senses without having either one of those two himself. He's also got way better stamina and endurance.

 

[Sorvoe551]

@Calaca

Ace is possibly Relativistic+ since he reacted to attacks from people he ultimately lost to. But reading over the two sections in the manga, I find it fishy at best. Here's what I mean:

vs Blackbeard: This fight is a chapter long in the manga (Ch 441). Ace reacts one time to being pulled in by Blackbeard's Black Vortex and throws two fire spears. The first time he's yanked in, he's too surprised that he can't phase through it and can be touched to do anything. Otherwise, Blackbeard makes no effort to dodge since he knows he can take Ace's attacks. The final image of the giant flame and darkness colliding and Ace's discarded hat at the end of the chapter implies that Ace was overpowered pretty handily in that moment.

vs Aokiji: (Ch. 572) It's one attack, and the distance between the two doesn't appear to be equal, Aokiji seems to have launched his attack farther, so Ace doesn't have to react as similar speeds

As for his Likely Low 6-B because of Akainu, you can see the clash in Ch. 573 and his flames are blown back immediately. Sure, Ace may be above Natsu by 0.4 Teratons by that scaling, but he can only maintain that power for a few seconds at most, where as Natsu can consistently hit that hard.

 

[The_Calaca]

He's possibly because the rating is wrong. Likely is the correct classification since he's one of the characters with the bigger amount of feats against Top Tiers. Clashing with Sakazuki at the same time, despite Sakazuki having no reason to slow himself down and could just punch him to death; intercepting Kuzan's ice; fighting Teach with attacks that were able to take him out of surprise; clash with Jinbe, who mind you, can intercept a bloodlusted Sakazuki and react to Katakuri's attacks. So no, he's Relativistic+. On the other side, the MHS+ scales above Mach 6670. Sub Relativistic isn't too far away from that.

You're still ignoring the rest of the scaling, with Ace having a feat in the novel of giving Shirohige a burn after one of the assassination attempts, which is something that didn't happen before, implying that he was becoming strong enough to pose a threat before joyfully joining his crew.

Plus, Natsu's Low 6-B always come from temporary power-ups. Igneel's power lasts for a few attacks and doesn't come back. This is the peak they used in the fight, and once Natsu loses the tattoo, goodbye Low 6-B since his other forms were High 7-A at the time.

 

[TitanCrusher101]

Oh, alright then Sorvoe.

 

[Sorvoe551]

@Calaca

So looking over Natsu and Ace's profile again, I have some points to say that Natsu would win eventually. Here's what I have:

1. So the fight has Natsu's best as his X792 version with Igneel's Power as his best multiplier (Seven Dragons wasn't a thing yet), therefore his power is, according to our site, "High 7-A, higher with FDKM or Dragonification, Low 6-B with DF..." as normal and "Low 6-B, higher with FDKM" with Igneel. While I will concede that Ace has the speed advantage, Natsu has more consistent upper-levels of power when, as I said before, Ace can only keep up that kind of power for a few seconds at best.

2. Natsu can eat Ace's Logia form, that's obvious and not what I'm arguing. However, once Ace discovers that, he's not going to remain in that form for his own safety. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Logia types can only absorb their element in their Logia forms, which means Ace can't absorb Natsu's attacks without transforming, which can give Natsu an opportunity to eat him. Natsu's bound to notice based on his past of making weakness observations on the fly.

3. Again, Natsu can obviously eat all of Ace's attacks. However, you stating that only fire with magic inside it can boost Natsu's power seems off to me. Fairy Tail describes it as just any type of fire he didn't make, with actually magic fire causing more of an effect. This site states as well, "...he can consume his particular element, except that which he has created, to replenish his energy reserves...," there's no mention of specifically Etherion-fire. I'll look further into this to double-check, but otherwise it seems that everything Ace does would power Natsu up.

4. Natsu's flames have overpowered those who have flame resistance multiple times and has gained resistance to flames that are explicitely supposed to beat his, like the God Slayer magic used by Zancrow, so an argument can be made that even if Ace was in Logia and Natsu didn't eat him, his flames should overpower Ace's like Akainu's lava.

5. On a similar lane as the previous point, Natsu's passive temperature output in his most powerful forms, like Igneel's Power or FDKM, is massive, being able to quickly evaporate a lake and instantly torch the clothes of anyone nearby. Ace may have been able to resist boiling water just fine, but I don't think he can handle temperatures that high

6. It is in character for Ace to be caught completely off guard when his powers or Logia form are circumvented in some way, like with Blackbeard or Akainu, so if Natsu started to eat him, it could be possible that Ace would be too shocked to react before it was too late.

7. The only temporary powerup in Natsu's arsenal is Igneel's Power, he can access Lightning-Fire Dragon Mode, Dragon Force, and Fire Dragon King Mode at will (Hellfire requires the Atlas Flame, Dragonification seems to have been a one time thing, Savage Dragon didn't exist yet, and he can't do Seven Dragons on his own), so he has a variety of ways to amp his power, Ace has no such options.

So those are my points so far for Natsu.

 

[The_Calaca]

If I changed my point before, I didn't notice. I think that Natsu'd win, that's why I said it belongs to Right, Bad. Here's why.

1. Natsu being physically stronger and having higher firepower it's true. What it's not true is that Ace can hold such level for a few seconds. That's something you made up without providing any evidence.

2. Yes, in an speed equal scenario Natsu'd get the opportunity. But we're talking about Ace being over 20x faster than Natsu. He sure can turn the intangibility off and turn it on again once Natsu gets close to punch him.

3. Edolas' fire couldn't boost Natsu's power even when he ate an explosion from the Dorma Anim. Even if Edolas has Ethernano, it has to be so small and minuscule when compared to Earthland's supply that it doesn't change anything. The same applies to any other fire, just like how a Genjutsu wouldn't work on someone without chakra flow.

4. This is where I wanted to get. Yes, I agree. In fact, Ace has a stated weakness that any stronger firepower can ignore his intangibility and directly hurt him, just like how Sakazuki did. Natsu'd need to go Plus Ultra to get on such level tho, but it'd be enough to harm Ace despite his intangibility.

5. Ace's passive temperature can stop the snow at winter islands where not seeing snow is a rare sight. The island where Shanks met him according to the novel, and Drum island according to the manga.

6. Eh, no. Ace had no way of knowing that they could circunvent his intangibility, and yet was still able to fight back (Teach) or move to protect Luffy (Sakazuki).

7. Such powerups ain't Low 6-B. Igneel's Power, Igneel's Power with FDKM, Savage Dragon Fire and Seven Flames Dragon Mode are.

 

[Sorvoe551]

There are a few points you made that I disagree with.

1. I made the few seconds point because of his interactions with Akainu and Blackbeard. For Blackbeard, the fight ends with Flame Emporer clashing with Blackbeard's attack as the second to last panel and his hat being shown discarded as the last panel of Chapter 441 with no description of the fight going much longer, hence why I think he was quickly overpowered. With Akainu, his attack towards him at the end of Chapter 573, with Ace extremely pissed off due to Akainu's slander of Whitebeard, is immediately blown back and burned by Akainu's attack. Whether the elemental effect made it easier or not may factor in, but it is shown that a very angry Ace was readily overpowered by a casual Akainu. His profile here even says "Although overpowered, he managed to clash with Akainu momentarily," hence my few seconds claim. I will post the scans if you'd like.

6. Ace has no way of knowing Natsu can eat fire, he'd be just as surprised. As for Teach, he reacted once, when he was being pulled in a second time by Black Vortex. He didn't react the first time, or when Blackbeard grabbed him and did a big windup punch to show that his Logia form was gone. Chapter 441 again, I can show you the panels

7. While some of those I got wrong, Dragon Force is stated to be Low 6-B by our site, I quoted it in my initial point. Igneel's power is too, but DF can be accessed freely and lasts much longer.

And finally, I don't why we're arguing this hard, the category we're analyzing right now is Right, Bad, which is where you want to put the fight and where it already is. I could give it a lower rating if this much debate comes from it, but we really shouldn't be

 

[The_Calaca]

1. There's no timeframe in that scene so it can't be argued it lasted for a few seconds yet at the same time it can't be argued it lasted a lot. But at the same time, he clashed with Jinbe for five days, and Jinbe was able to block a punch from an enraged Sakazuki.

6. If he feels that he's getting sucked in he'll do anything to prevent it, especially if he has the experience that fighting Teach gave to him. He'd think that Natsu's another Yami Yami user instead of thinking "shit, he eats fire".

7. Dragon Force is Low 6-B but at the last part of the arc. There's no evidence that Dragon Force was that strong at the moment of the fight, hence why did Natsu used Igneel's Power instead of DF if both were comparable?

I'm arguing because this battle has lead to a lot of misinformation even here on the wiki.

 

[Davidsteel1]

Speaking of misinformation, I need to know where ur getting your info on the "edolas flame thing"

 

[The_Calaca]

I read the Edolas arc and noticed that Natsu ate an explosion mid-fight and not only didn't get any boost but didn't recovered his magic power from it.

If Edolas has any Ethernano in the enviroment, it must be so minuscule that it's meaningless.

 

[Davidsteel1]

He didn't eat the explosion mid-fight he ate it early on in the fight, hence the rest of the fight he would have burnt through whatever magic he would have recovered, especially since the King made an effort to prevent Natsu from gaining anymore fire to eat (notice that never happens again).

Plus the basis for Natsu's power is "he eats fire to recover magic" not "he eats the ethernano in the fire to recover magic", assuming that Natsu didn't recover any strength because the magic in the environment is minuscule is a faux pax. Plus if something as unusual as Natsu not regaining power after eating an explosion occurred, the characters would call attention to it, it's a pretty big deal. But no one at any point does.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

Does this even matter? Natsu can still give Ace the succ

 

[Sorvoe551]

So I'm guessing Natsu vs Ace should be given a lower rating. Where do you think it should go?

Moving off of that fight, with Ryu vs Jin now Wrong, Decent, the numbers will have to be adjusted, but we'll do that later. Ben 10 vs GL was the big problem earlier, but it seems there aren't many other objections to other fights on the list that haven't been dealt with

 

[The_Calaca]

Fight starts at chapter 190.

They eat at chapter 191.

Chapter 192 shows how the Dorma is kicking their butts.

Chapter 193 doesn't show a thing about the fight.

Chapter 194 shows the Dorma stomping them, and during a barrage of attacks from above a lot of explosions surrounded them and Natsu didn't ate them. Gajeel states that he has no magic left despite him noming the Dorma's tail in the 191. Before you say "oh, it happened a lot of time", no. That's not how narrative works. Most of the events happened at the same time, but the author can't show all of that simultaneously. So the fight went a bit off-panel, but it wasn't something like tens of minutes. They later destroy the robot with the triple attack using their 'tomorrow shares', meaning that they had no magic left.

Don't forget that Wendy finds magic from the air. If she was dry, then that means she wasn't collecting the magic from Edolas' air.

"He eats fire to recover magic" is the simple description because the author doesn't give a shit about building a power system. But if he shows that his characters can't fight much more despite being able to eat their elements, then it's fairer to say that said element doesn't have the same elements that the magic is composed of. In other words, said fire/metal/air lacks Ethernano, whether as a whole or there's a small portion of it in them.

No one pays attention and yet no one is able to keep fighting without asspulling while they state that they have no magic left.

 

[Davidsteel1]

So let me understand this, the fight starts at the tail end of chap 190- when the 3 dragon slayers come together. Chapter 191 is when they really get into it and b4 the chapter ends they eat fire and iron respectively- all this is still at the beginning stages of the fight. The fight then proceeds for another 3 chapters, chapters which we are not given any accurate measure of time and they are being ragdolled throughout. U mention Natsu not eating explosions but fail to outline that these could just be explosions of pure magic which Natsu cannot eat- all in all making this an unreliable assumption to make, Wendy can eat air fair but she is objectively the weakest of the three and far from the most experienced character there (hence setting up mitigating factors)

You then fall back to attacking the absence of a "power system" instead of at the very least focusing on what we do know. Your entire argument is based off of statements like "the element should have less magic", they "shouldn't recover much magic" in other words it is based solely on guesstimation instead of anything actually said in the story. I will repeat what I said earlier, not recovering magic when they eat an element is a big deal, big enough that the characters would have to call attention to it, the fact that they don't at all speaks for itself.

And ultimately look at the arguments; yours requires us to make several leaps in logic to come to the conclusion that they aren't recovering magic:

>they ate magic early in the fight

>but 3 chapters later they're exhausted

>it must be because of the absence of ethernano in the environment

>never mind that they're losing to a superior opponent, clearly that has nothing to do with why their battered bodies are exhausted

>never mind that there is no indication of this being at thing at all in the series

>well it's just due to a poor power system

>I conclude that eating their own elements doesn't amp then enough

Excuse me?

 

[The_Calaca]

Using the excuse that Natsu can't eat another magic is hilarious. You should know that he doesn't give a f*ck about that and he'd eat magic anyway. The explosions were depicted in the same fashion that the one Natsu ate as well. Wendy not being as experienced as them has nothing to do with her eating the air. You're basically equating experience with absorption.

Nope, my argument is that Edolas' enviroment has no Ethernano at all if the Exceed are the only beings where the humans are able to gather it from like the portal instead of going to the fricking floating mountains to use that magic power. If I say that "there's little magic" it's to give a compromise because I know how conservative the fandom can be when someone touch your beloved Slayers >.>. The fact that none of them are recovering magic even over time also speaks by itself. FFS, Natsu was holding a torch at the beginning of the arc and he didn't even try to eat it so he could check if doing so would recover his lost magic power.

Getting stomped by the Dorma makes them lose their magic power quicker, and for some reason when Gajeel had the chance to eat the Dorma's metal when he nailed it into the ground he didn't do it to at least recover a bit of his power so they can ensure the victory.

If the author has to rely on asspulls and convenience to win the fight, it's obvious that he doesn't care about his power system enough to not pay attention to such details.

Plus, even if Natsu didn't say "huh, that's weird, I haven't recovered my magic power with this" he neither said that he recovered it. He wasn't in such a bad shape to be exhausted at all.

It's also even less than 2 chapters since the amount of pages don't make up for two full chapters and there's no indication that a long time was passing by through the fight.

 

[Davidsteel1]

-No I am equating experience with capability, Wendy's first experience with combat was at the very end of the previous arc, where she only for the first time used a basic roar and made a big deal about eating sufficient air for it

-Natsu not eating random elements: the first time Natsu are random elements was with etherion where his mental process was etherion carries multiple types of magical energies including fire, there is probably enough of that in it that I could powerup- and he was correct. The first time he successfully eats another pure element is when Laxus literally forcefeeds him lightning about an arc or two later. So saying "Natsu doesn't care about eating other elements isn't accurate when his previous attempts (eating Laxus' lightning offscreen) got him sick.

-At the beginning of the arc Natsu couldn't use magic at all, it's literally a major plot point, no one can access their magic at all (which surprise surprise includes Slayers) up until they are given a particular pill by Mystogan

-I'm fairly certain he was more concerned in making sure their combo attack landed, than he was about getting a boost in power when he already knows that he can't beat the Dorma anim

-Once again what does that have to do with the discussion? U bring it up as though it changes anything, you're applying rules that the series never made and then complaining that your rules were not followed

-What? Occam's razor says that when presented with two explanations the one with the least number of assumptions is right, Natsu ate fire and made no comment, it is a greater assumption to make that he didn't recover any magic and just didn't say so just because, than it is to assume he didn't bother saying anything because nothing was amiss.

-Again there was no indication for how much time had passed at all so that isn't an argument, series have literally had hours pass in the same number of chapters and had less than minutes pass in 3 times the number of chapters.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Akuma island feat was recalced recently and its large town level now, street fighter tierings could get some big changes maybe

 

[Sorvoe551]

So since Akuma is pretty much the top dog of Street Fighter and Jin is 7-B casually, Ryu vs Jin is even more Wrong, Decent

 

[BlackDarkness679]

The calc needs to be checked if its correct, but if it turns out to be ok and in case the verse gets downgraded a lot, then yeah

 

[Sorvoe551]

Also, there's something I want to address with a certain match:

So right now we have Ryu Hayabusa vs Strider Hiryu towards the bottom of Wrong, Bad because True Dragon Blade is so overpowered, but looking back over the fight, a point that may shift it to at least Iffy. Here's my thinking:

The fight doesn't have Ryu equipped with the True Dragon Blade right away, you see him equip the Eye of the Dragon after Hiryu unleashes Legion (you see a white aura eminate around him), so for the first part of the fight Ryu is in his base form according to DB.

Now, both combatants have similar combat/reaction speed, but Hiryu can run much faster than Ryu, he hits much harder than Ryu's base form, and if the normal Dragon Blade isn't indestructible, then Hiryu can blitz Ryu or slice his sword in half along with Ryu. Since both combatants are serious ninja, I don't think it would be out of character for them to rush in for a swift kill.

Since I'm not super up to date on Ninja Gaiden, there are two questions I have to confirm or discredit this logic:

1. Is it in character for Ryu to have the Eye of the Dragon, and therefore the True Dragon Blade, equipped at all times or does he treat that form as a worst-case scenario tool?

2. If he doesn't have the True Dragon Blade equipped, is the normal Dragon Blade indestructible like True form?

 

[Migue79]

I'm pretty sure he would have it equipped with him considering it is considered part of his standard equipment according to our profiles.

Something that I should point out that DB themselves pointed out is that the animation does not portray how the battle would actually go and that it's for entertainment. I personally find that a cop-out excuse for some inaccurate character portrayals but whatever.

 

[Sorvoe551]

I know the animation doesn't count, but I pointed it out because it got me thinking about the possibility of him not having the True Blade equipped at all times

 

[Migue79]

I see...

Well, we consider The True Dragon Blade a part of Ryu's standard equipment. So, I'm pretty sure he would have it. Thus, making the DB (as far as I'm concerned) wrong.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

tbh it should be wrong, good, because that fight was ******' baller

 

[Sorvoe551]

Research determines Good or Bad, not animation, but I totally agree, the fight choreography was amazing

 

[Migue79]

Do recent upgrades influence the placing of all DBs at all?

 

[The_Calaca]

@David

Completely forgot about this.

>Fair.

>But this works only if we assume that the explosions were made of some random element that it's not fire.

>Fair.

>But they could've eaten some elements to gain more strength and ensure their victory. Why didn't they do it then?

>Huh? I'm saying that the author relied on the easy and lazy solution instead of using the obvious useful tools he created. Why? Call it headcanon if you want to, but if the major plot point of Edolas not having natural magic and the Slayers didn't ate their elements to recover their magic power then I see two non-stated coincidences that might be more consistent than everyone thinks.

>Natsu ate fire and he didn't later despite being able to recover his magic. Why?

>When different events happens in the same chapters but in different scenes, it's obvious that everything is happening in a short timeframe all at the same time.

 

[Pulinno]

Do recent upgrades influence the placing of all DBs at all?

It depends. For example, Zelda, who has recently been upgraded to 3-A via the full triforce, doesn't win against base Peach because at the time of the DB the game which upgraded Zelda (ALBW) didn't exist at the time

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

i think peach just blitzes her before she can triforce

 

[Dust_Collector]

^Was just about to say that myself, Peach is still over a quadrillion timed faster than Zelda and can casually one shot her before Zeldas brain can even start to register the thought of using the Triforce.

 

[Migue79]

It depends. For example, Zelda, who has recently been upgraded to 3-A via the full triforce, doesn't win against base Peach because at the time of the DB the game which upgraded Zelda (ALBW) didn't exist at the time

So, only if the keys that DB used receive upgrades that the upgrades affect the placing of the DBs here?

 

[Sorvoe551]

Zelda was just given the Triforce of Wisdom for the fight because that's what she usually has.

As for upgrades, the thought I've had on it is that if a new calc reveals that feats that were out when the fight was released were better/worse than previously thought, then the accuracy can change. Here are two examples:

Dante vs Bayonetta: Originally we deemed this battle as very wrong due to Dante being country level at best. However, once DMC5 made the novels canon, it showed that around the time of DMC2, Dante beat the alternate version of Mundus that was the universe, and he did it with relative ease. Hence, Dante got massively upgraded. Since DMC4 is after 2 in the timeline and that was the last game out at the time of the fight, Dante became the victor since he now could not be hurt by Bayonetta and would outlast her stamina wise.

Luigi vs Tails: Luigi originally hit harder and their speed was comparable, , but reexamining the Archie comics (Archie was used for Sonic characters up until Knux vs DK) revealed 2-C stuff from the early comics, hence Tails' upgrade to allow him not to be hurt at all

 

[Theuser789]

Luigi speed was never comparable to Archie Tails, MFTL+ is a gigantic tier and Archie characters were always hundred of times faster than even the upper end of Mario calcs

 

[Migue79]

The Full Triforce isn't really a part of Zelda's standard equipment. And like Sorvoe said, they used ToW Zelda. So, upgrades that are outside of said key don't affect the positioning of this DB in the list.

 

[Pulinno]

It was just an examle though, as Peach still stomps because of PH and still blitzes HARD

 

[Unoriginal_Memes]

Deadpool VS Deathstroke is definitely accurate. As well as blitzing Deathstroke and one-shotting him with any of his weapons, the battle was made when Deadpool was still cursed by Thanos. This means Deathstroke had absolutely no means to win the fight as he has no ways to bypass Type 5 Immortality.

Deadpool's healing at the time was essentially godlike as well, with his healing factor being much more accessible and less of a pain to deal with (it only takes him a short time to regenerate from a pool of blood, while this previously killed him).

 

[Migue79]

What speed feats do DC Street tiers scale to? Heard the speed gap between 2 characters had to be at least 7x for it to be a blitz.

 

[Schnee_One]

Mach 292 for DC

Mach 7000 for Marvel

 

[Migue79]

Holy shit. The speed gap's that large?! Damn...

The minimum speed gap to constitute a blitz is still 7x, right?