Death Star Possible Upgrade

[Idazmi]

Basically that the Death Star I and II are Dwarf Star level. Everyone on the thread agrees with the calculation and upgrade. I'm willing to wait for Idazmi or someone else's arguments on the Starkiller Base's superlaser not scaling to the two Death Stars.

The very idea of scaling Starkiller to the Death Star 1 and 2 is predicated on the idea that the Death Stars can destroy a planet, and the Starkiller can destroy multiple planets: simply multiply the AP by the number of planets affected. The problem is, the way Starkiller destroys planets, and the way it gets it's energy in the first place is entirely different. With that in mind, I also see several other major discrepancies in some of the base assumptions regarding the Death Stars. Listing them:

1. Already stated, Alderann was blasted utterly into tiny fragments basically instantly, and it's fragments were thrown across multiple planetary radii in seconds. In contrast, the planets in the Hosnian system fractured, and then drifted apart in huge chunks - bringing the results much closer to 5-A, or even 5-B per each individual impact.

2. Starkiller is nowhere near the planets it destroys, so it's shields simply aren't needed to defend from any ensuing planetary debris. Instead, it's shields are to defend against attacks from capital ships and fighters. In addition, the Death Star 2 having a shield at all was a massive plot point:


Meeting-plan before the battle of Endor.mpg

This wasn't even brought up for the Death Star 1. In fact, the X-Wing fighters passed through the Death Star 1's magnetic field:


Death Star Assault - A New Hope 1080p HD

I think this is enough evidence to assume that the Death Star 1 canonically had no energy shield: if it did, the Empire could have easily activated it and prevented the attack entirely, just like the Death Star 2 did until the rebels took out the shield generator. Now, someone could insist that the Death Star 1 would need to deflect planetary debris, but Star Wars' focus was never on realism: the Death Star 2 exploding in orbit over Endor had no ill effects, though it would have realistically blasted away the entire atmosphere at very least.

 

[ByAsura]

No, it's not. The idea came from it being superior in everyway (which I didn't make). If you want to argue this, that's fine. I agree with the stuff about Starkiller not being in the area of the explosion or debris. This here implies it's more powerful

• It's another Death Star.
• I wish that were the case, Major.
• This was the Death Star.
• The Death Star is a minuscule in comparison.
• This is Starkiller Base. This is news to many here, and they're stunned.
• So it's big.
• How is it possible to power a weapon of this size?
• It uses the power of the sun. As the weapon is charged, the sun is drained until it disappears.

Actually, the Death Star I was shielded. They explain a fleet can't get through but a fighter can due to its small size making it difficult for the base's turbolasers to target.

• The battle station is heavily shielded and carries a firepower greater than half the star fleet. It's defenses are designed around a direct large scale assault. A small one-man fighter should be able to penetrate the outer defense.
• Only a precise hit will set up a chain reaction. The shaft is ray shielded, so you'll have to use proton torpedoes.

 

[Antvasima]

@ByAsura

Okay. I suppose that seems fine then.

 

[ByAsura]

I've upgraded Death Star I and II, but I'll wait for the arguments about the Starkiller Base.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thanks.

 

[Soldier_Blue]

Death Star I shielding:

The novel Catalyst: A Rogue One Novel makes it clear that the Death Star I has shielding. The Republic (and later the Empire) even go out of their way to bring in defence contractors and researchers to work on the shielding specifically.

Starkiller Base:
This monstrosity does not destroy planets by merely blowing them up. Sure, the crust was blasted away. But more happens underneath. According to the Force Awakens novelization, the "Phantom Energy" of the hyperspace superlaser ignited the innards of all the planets it struck, resulting in what is described as a "Pocket Nova" and turning the struck planets into small stars. Furthermore, according to the novel The Last Jedi: Cobalt Squadro, the time & space around the targets were distorted greatly, causing what is known as a "hyperspace storm". This made the "Hosnian Cataclysm" instantly visible for thousands of light-years, whereas the light from the destruction of Alderaan travelled across the galaxy at normal light speed.

Technobabble nonsense, I know. But that's how it works.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the information. Do the pages need to be updated further?

 

[Hellbeast1]

Hmm what would it yield to illuminate something som much it's seen a thousand light years away?

 

[Idazmi]

No, it's not. The idea came from it being superior in everyway (which I didn't make). If you want to argue this, that's fine. I agree with the stuff about Starkiller not being in the area of the explosion or debris. This here implies it's more powerful

That very strongly implies that the Death Star is not dwarf star level, otherwise the Starkiller would hardly need to absorb a sun to fire. Should we be taking the visual effects or writers intentions more seriously?

Actually, the Death Star I was shielded. They explain a fleet can't get through but a fighter can due to its small size making it difficult for the base's turbolasers to target.

The problem comes when you assume "heavily shielded" means an energy shield in this context: fighters can clearly go right through the "shield" with only slight turbulence. If that's the case, why not missiles of similar or smaller size, or even turbolaser bolts? Listing the DS1 as having Dwarf Star level shields, by this site's reckoning, would imply that X-Wings have the ability to penetrate Dwarf Star Level shields with brute force. In addition to the Death Star II's shield being able to block fighters, and the Starkiller needing to absorb a Dwarf Star to power itself... it doesn't add up.

 

[Idazmi]

None of that is even implied in the films at all: not even one mention of a "Hosnian Cataclysm" is made, and there's no visible area in space shown where Hosnian used to be.

 

[ByAsura]

The quote implies it doesn't need to drain stars for power, it doesn't imply it can't destroy extremely small stars that are only a few times larger than Jupiter in mass. Also, the Wiki uses Attack Potency (energy required to destroy) rather than just Destructive Capacity (what one can destroy), so citing "author intention" is like saying the Enterprise-D isn't Moon level+ because it didn't destroy one. The Starkiller totally drains stars dry, this is why planets were rendered lightless, it's not like the energy is only Dwarf Star level, someone actually calculated draining a star like our own as Large Star level.

This is a universe where deflector shields are on basically every ship, shielded means shielded, even if it's the first film. They already explain this; fighters specifically can bypass the shields (it's entirely possible that weapons alone cannot get through), the brute force of a fleet can't get through, and the Death Star has a very specific weakness in the exhaust port that's ray-shielded against everything except torpedoes.

Also, Soldier Blue brought up a novel where it's literally stated the Death Star has a deflector and that it's integral to the base's design. Hell, every other Death Star has a deflector, it seems totally illogical this war winning superweapon would have none.

 

[Idazmi]

This is a universe where deflector shields are on basically every ship, shielded means shielded, even if it's the first film. They already explain this; fighters specifically can bypass the shields (it's entirely possible that weapons alone cannot get through), the brute force of a fleet can't get through, and the Death Star has a very specific weakness in the exhaust port that's ray-shielded against everything except torpedoes.

(Re-Upload) Rogue One A Star Wars Story - Space & Aerial Battle of Scarif Supercut HD

1:25 and 3:57 in that video - The Shield on Scarif held against fighters, including X-wings that smashed into the shield and broke up on impact.

6:44 in that video - The same shield didn't hold against Star Destroyers that fell onto it.


Death Star Assault - A New Hope 1080p HD

These X-wings fly straight to the Death Star's surface unhindered by anything more than turbulence... but shield is somehow being rated at Dwarf Star Level. So no, the Death Star 1 is clearly not using the same, or even a similar shielding system.

Also, Soldier Blue brought up a novel where it's literally stated the Death Star has a deflector and that it's integral to the base's design. Hell, every other Death Star has a deflector, it seems totally illogical this war winning superweapon would have none.

Then why and how can X-Wings just fly through the Death Star 1's deflector, but can't do the same on Scarif, Starkiller, or the Death Star II? That's a pretty big discrepancy, one that the current APs are ignoring.

 

[ByAsura]

"So no, the Death Star 1 is clearly not using the same, or even a similar shielding system." Yeah, I've been saying this the whole time, they've been designed against a fleet wide attack, not a small fighter. They literally explain this, and you seem to be unable to grasp this concept. An X-wing and TIE Fighter getting through doesn't mean the same as the Millennium Falcon or a Star Cruiser passing the shield. If it were like that, you'd see Star Cruisers getting through the shield.

You seem to be forgetting one very specific detail: The Rebels obtained the Death Star's scematics. The Empire may have found out and confident they couldn't do anything, but it's not a discrepancy. Also, the second Death Star had a shield maintained from a power base on another planet, and Star Killer literally drew power from stars, so it's not at all comparable. The only reason I had the comparison is to show basically everything has Deflectors.

 

[Soldier_Blue]

@Idazmi

The problem comes when you assume "heavily shielded" means an energy shield in this context: fighters can clearly go right through the "shield" with only slight turbulence. If that's the case, why not missiles of similar or smaller size, or even turbolaser bolts? Listing the DS1 as having Dwarf Star level shields, by this site's reckoning, would imply that X-Wings have the ability to penetrate Dwarf Star Level shields with brute force.

I see you are unfamiliar with how deflector shields in Star Wars work.

They're not simply forcefields that prevent anything from penetrating. They're more complex than that.

There are two types of deflector shields: Ray and Particle shields.

All starships have deflector shields that consist of a mix of the two layered on top of each other. The same is true for ground-based shielding protecting things such as military bases and weapons factories.

Ray shields protect against directed energy attacks. Most capital ships have deflector (ray) shielding that can absorb a great deal of heavy turbolaser fire before depleting. Dreadnought and battle station shields can usually absorb heavy turbolaser fire from an entire fleet for long periods of time without depleting. They also have particle shields which prevent solid matter moving above a certain velocity from penetrating. These include high velocity projectiles (such as those from Mass Driver Cannons), proton torpedoes, concussion missiles, etc. However, solid objects moving at a slow enough velocity can penetrate. Some craft also take advantage of "gaps" in the shield to fly through.

Examples:

During the Second Battle of Geonosis, the 501st Legion and 212th Attack Battalion were tasked with destroying a fortress which was putting up a powerful shield. Said shield prevented Republic Navy Y-wing bombers from just flying to the fortress and bombing it from the air. So what does General Skywalker do? He straight up charges through the shield with hundreds of Clone Troopers and a contingent of AT-TE walkers, goes to the fortress, clears out the defences, and then has the walkers blast the fortress to bits.

During the Onderon Civil War, we have what is perhaps the best example of deflector shields blocking physical objects going above only a certain velocity. While Ahsoka and Anakin are training the Onderon insurgents in how to combat Droidekas, you can see that only grenades going slow enough can get through the Droidekas' shields. Above a certain speed, they are blocked and just bounce off.

During the height of the Umbara insurgency, the Imperial Navy sends the Imperial I-class star destroyer Foremost along with a few Raider-class corvettes and Arquitens-class light cruisers to suppress the uprising. The rebel Nightswan sends in a swarm of repurposed Vulture droids to attack the task force. The Thrawn novel describes how the Vultures flew under the ships' deflector shields or through gaps in the deflector shield array and attacked the hulls directly.

Echo Base on Hoth was defended by a deflector shield which protected against orbital bombardment. It likely protected against starship & starfighter assaults as well, because the Lost Stars novel made it clear that no TIEs or Gozanti transports made it past the shield, with the latter choosing to drop AT-AT and AT-ST walkers outside of the shield perimeter. The AT-AT and AT-ST walkers dropped off by the Gozantis were slow enough to just walk through Echo Base's shield and target the shield generator directly.

When the Supremacy and her escort fleet ambush the Resistance Fleet in the Crait System, we see that the Raddus's shields hold up well against heavy turbolaser attacks. However, we see Kylo Ren's TIE Silencer and two TIE/sf fighters straight up fly under the Raddus's deflector shield and attack the hull directly.

None of that is even implied in the films at all: not even one mention of a "Hosnian Cataclysm" is made, and there's no visible area in space shown where Hosnian used to be.

So? It doesn't change the fact that it's canon. Most of the lore and explanations of all things Star Wars is in the expanded universe anyway (be it Legends or Canon continuity). So what if all of that wasn't in the movie? The novelization of the movie is canon. It is based on the script for the film and includes things the movie simply can't, including deleted scenes and information confirmed to be canon. The Hosnian Cataclysm also appears in other canonical works (novels, comics, even a video game) and a reference book (whose information is also officially canon). Just because it didn't appear in the film doesn't mean it isn't canon. Other works have dived into it and explored it better.

1:25 and 3:57 in that video - The Shield on Scarif held against fighters, including X-wings that smashed into the shield and broke up on impact.

6:44 in that video - The same shield didn't hold against Star Destroyers that fell onto it.

Then why and how can X-Wings just fly through the Death Star 1's deflector, but can't do the same on Scarif, Starkiller, or the Death Star II? That's a pretty big discrepancy, one that the current APs are ignoring.

The Death Star I had a deflector shield which was meant to protect it from enemy capital ship assaults at long range. Scarif had what is known as a Planetary Shield. Starship deflector shields and planetary shields are two completely different things.

Planetary shields are meant to protect a planet as a whole (or only portion of a planet) from orbital assault. They are designed to block out everything; and this includes everything from a particle bolt to multi-kilometre capital ships.

We see during the Salient campaign that it took sustained (probably days) of bombardment from two Venator-class star destroyers to get through a planetary shield in the Salient system. And only then could their complements of ARC-170 fighters get to the surface and attack ground targets directly.

Also, during the Battle of Scarif, the star destroyers Intimidator and Persecutor didn't go through the Scarif planetary shield. Their wreckages were made to ram and destroy the shield generator gate, thus taking out the entire planetary shield as a whole.

The Death Star II had a planetary type shield protecting it. This prevented even starfighters from slipping in close to make a run at the hypermatter reactor. It was only when the shield generator on Endor's surface was destroyed that Wedge's X-wing, the Millennium Falcon, and Norra's Y-wing were able to make a run for the Death Star II's reactor.

Starkiller Base is confirmed to have had a planetary shield by the TFA Visual Dictionary and comic adaptation.

---

All this being said, I do think we need to revise the durability rating of the Death Stars' and Starkiller Base's shields.

 

[ByAsura]

I recall fleets of similar power bombarding planetary surfaces to molten rubble (I don't look at many of the canon comics or books), so maybe Multi-Continent level with Deflectors, or far higher with Deflectors if I'm wrong/there's nothing specific. Perhaps there's some scaling.

Edit: Apparently there's quite a few vessels with Continent level to Multi-Continent level shields. Could these scale? I'd imagine the Starkiller Base would, since it's not obsolete.

 

[Idazmi]

@Idazmi I see you are unfamiliar with how deflector shields in Star Wars work. They're not simply forcefields that prevent anything from penetrating. They're more complex than that. (...)

I'm very well familiar with the difference between ray and particle shields, and how those shields are used in Star Wars media. The problem is this:

• No particle shields are shown or implied to exist in any form in Star Wars 1 - 8, The Clone Wars, Rebels, Rogue One, or Solo. Instead, we see plenty of visible "ray shields" which do indeed let matter right through them, as we see with Echo Base, the Gungans on Naboo, and the Raddus. General Trench had the exception: his "thermal Shields" prevented anything from penetrating, despite the name - not a "particle shield". Even your long list mentioned no particle shields in action. This strongly implies a contradiction between the film canon and the rest of the lore.
• Scarif, Starkiller, and the Death Star II all have a shield with one distinct layer that prevented anything from penetrating until the generator was destroyed or shut down. No mention of particles.

By the Expanded Universe logic, the Death Star I is shown to have neither ray nor particle shields covering the superstructure: it has an invisible magnetic field (explicitly referred to as such). The only ray shield in the combat area was the ray shield covering the exhaust port.

So? It doesn't change the fact that it's canon. Most of the lore and explanations of all things Star Wars is in the expanded universe anyway (be it Legends or Canon continuity). So what if all of that wasn't in the movie? The novelization of the movie is canon. It is based on the script for the film and includes things the movie simply can't, including deleted scenes and information confirmed to be canon. The Hosnian Cataclysm also appears in other canonical works (novels, comics, even a video game) and a reference book (whose information is also officially canon). Just because it didn't appear in the film doesn't mean it isn't canon. Other works have dived into it and explored it better.

You'd think that a galactic superweapon creating a giant storm that's visible from thousands of lightyears away would be a rather important point to mention in the primary media at least once - certainly in the only media where the weapon is actually shown to fire. That, and after seeing how Solo handled the Kessel Run, I don't believe for a second that they couldn't include such a thing in the film. It's far more likely that the contents of these other media are neither reviewed nor strictly regulated for adherence to existing canon.

The Death Star I had a deflector shield which was meant to protect it from enemy capital ship assaults at long range. Scarif had what is known as a Planetary Shield. Starship deflector shields and planetary shields are two completely different things.

"We're passing through the magnetic field, hold tight!" - Garven Dreis, Red Leader.

Also, during the Battle of Scarif, the star destroyers Intimidator and Persecutor didn't go through the Scarif planetary shield. Their wreckages were made to ram and destroy the shield generator gate, thus taking out the entire planetary shield as a whole.

Rogue One A Star Wars Story Destruction of Scarif and death of Jyn Erso & Cassian Andor 1080p HD

The shield is seen to be still active at the very moment the Death Star fires on Scarif. In addition, The crashing Star Destroyers from earlier were shown to briefly breach the shield at point of impact with the shield.

All this being said, I do think we need to revise the durability rating of the Death Stars' and Starkiller Base's shields.

The thing is, it's being assumed that these superweapons must be able to tank the aftereffects of their own weaponry. Especially for Starkiller, that makes little sense.

 

[ByAsura]

bump

I'm not sure on the wiki's reliability, but according to it magnetic fields are used for containment not protection.

 

[ByAsura]

bump

 

[Idazmi]

bump

 

[Idazmi]

bump

 

[ByAsura]

Soldier also seems to agree with downgrading the shields. What value do you think they should have, Idazmi?

 

[Idazmi]

Soldier also seems to agree with downgrading the shields. What value do you think they should have, Idazmi?

The DS1 shouldn't have a shield at all: it has a magnetic field that clearly lets X-wings through, and I doubt that a "shield" that can't stop X-wings would stop debris from an exploding planet.

Secondly, the shields of the DSII and Starkiller Base were designed to deflect large scale bombardment from ships, not the aftereffects of planet destruction. Even if that wasn't the case, Starkiller literally attacks from another star system entirely and wouldn't need such a shield.

 

[ByAsura]

We've already discussed this. It's stated on multiple occasions to have shields that protect against a fleet wide bombardment, the magnetic field is something different entirely, and every novel opposes your viewpoint. If it didn't have shields, the entire Rebel fleet could have gone in and not some X-Wing, albeit at large cost, and destroyed it. They also say the shaft to its main reactor is ray-shielded, meaning they cloud only use torpedoes. I feel that you're being extremely stubborn on this point.

It's implied the Death Star II's shield can protect against both fleet and individual ships, as they say any attack is useless and ships explode against it in battle. Also it uses a shield generator from a planet. It would make no sense for it to have weak spots.

• Systems on this Death Star are not yet operational, the Death Star does have a strong defense mechanism. It is protected by an energy shield, which is generated from the nearby forest Moon of Endor. The shield must be deactivated if any attack is to be attempted. Once the shield is down, our cruisers will create a perimeter, while the fighters fly into the superstructure and attempt to knock out the main reactor.
• We have stolen a small Imperial shuttle. Disguised as a cargo ship, and using a secret Imperial code, a strike team will land on the moon and deactivate the shield generator.
• Break off the attack! The shield is still up.
• Luke Skywalker has returned to his home planet of Tatooine in an attempt to rescue his friend Han Solo from the clutches of the├èvile gangster Jabba the Hutt. Little does Luke know that the GALACTIC EMPIRE has secretly begun construction on a new armored space station even more powerful than the first dreaded Death Star. When completed, this ultimate weapon will spell certain doom for the small band of Rebels struggling to restore freedom to the galaxy...

I agree that it shouldn't have to take the aftereffects of planetary destruction, and it seems Soldier Blue does as well.

 

[Idazmi]

General Dodanna said: "It's defenses are designed around a direct large-scale assault. A small one-man fighter should be able to penetrate the outer defense. (...) Well, the Empire doesn't consider a small one-man fighter to be any threat, or they'd have a tighter defense."

Which is true: the X-Wings were small enough to continually evade the turbolaser defenses. The Rebel Cruisers wouldn't make it. There was no mention of the X-wings passing between gaps in the shields or anything like that. All they passed through was a magnetic field.

They also say the shaft to its main reactor is ray-shielded, meaning they cloud only use torpedoes. I feel that you're being extremely stubborn on this point.

I mentioned that ray shield: a small shield protecting a tiny opening on a station is nowhere near the same as the entire superstructure having a giant shield. That's the point that needs proving.

It's implied the Death Star II's shield can protect against both fleet and individual ships, as they say any attack is useless and ships explode against it in battle. Also it uses a shield generator from a planet. It would make no sense for it to have weak spots.

Which exactly contradicts your position that the DS1 had a shield covering the entire superstructure. Scarif, Starkiller, and the DS2 all definitely had shields, all of which were seen to deflect virtually anything. The DS1 didn't have X-wings exploding on any such barrier. Even so, according to you, the DS1 had a shield that covers the entire superstructure, that somehow blocked only cruisers and not fighters. That simply makes no sense.

My position is that the DS1, alone, didn't have a shield covering the entire station. In contrast, the DS2 and Starkiller Base had Scarif style shields that block basically everything.

 

[ByAsura]

If its defenses were designed for just a large scale assault, then the fleet could fire from afar. But they can't, and had to directly send the X-Wings in. It's clear that the Death Star I, which took hours to recharge, has some sort of defense against blasters, whether this be a magnetic field or not. All canon seems to confirm this.

I didn't say it covers the entire Death Star, I'm just saying it has those kind of defenses. No, that doesn't prove your point, that just proves the shield isn't the same as the first Death Star, which it wasn't. Yes, and they explain why those X-Wings didn't explode against it. I never said it has a shield that covers the entire station, I just said it has a shield that protects against attack.

• Well, the Empire doesn't consider a small one-man fighter to be any threat, or they'd have a tighter defense. An analysis of the plans provided by Princess Leia has demonstrated a weakness in the battle station.

How powerful do you believe DS2 and Star Killer Base's shields should be?

 

[Idazmi]

No, it doesn't. And why, exactly would the Death Star have a shorter turbolaser range than a Rebel cruiser? The Death Star has far greater energy reserves. Enough to power turbolasers that would utterly shred any cruiser trying to attack it.

I didn't say it covers the entire Death Star, I'm just saying it has those kind of defenses. No, that doesn't prove your point, that just proves the shield isn't the same as the first Death Star, which it wasn't. Yes, and they explain why those X-Wings didn't explode against it. I never said it has a shield that covers the entire station, I just said it has a shield that protects against attack.

The fact remains that we see no sign of any sort of obstruction to the Death Star surface. You're insisting on an energy shield existing wen we see absolutely no evidence of such a thing.

How powerful do you believe DS2 and Star Killer Base's shields should be?

Equal to the shields on Scarif, at least. Enough to keep out fighters or turbolaser bombardment from a fleet, insufficient to deflect a Superlaser on a single reactor ignition: judging by Krennic's reaction, the destruction was well above what a ship at that time could generate.

 

[ByAsura]

I never said that at all. Also, how would it just a turret system defeat a Rebel Fleet? This never happens in the films, and everything actually goes against this when the Empire sends their own forces rather than just using the Death Star. Plus, what if a single, stray attack from either side hit the Death Star?

I'm insisting on it because everything says it does, such as novels and actual quotes saying its heavily shielded. You're ignoring it because X-Wings can bypass the Death Star's defenses.

Ok.

 

[Idazmi]

I never said that at all. Also, how would it just a turret system defeat a Rebel Fleet? This never happens in the films, and everything actually goes against this when the Empire sends their own forces rather than just using the Death Star. Plus, what if a single, stray attack from either side hit the Death Star?

I can't believe we're actually debating this... the Death Star is the size of a moon. It is also literally covered in absolutely massive turbolaser turrets specifically designed to attack capital ships. A Rebel cruiser is less than a mile in length and had far smaller guns. The Death Star would absolutely shred any Rebel fleet that attacked it from turbolaser range. And so what if a stray turbolaser hit the Death Star? So what if a thousand turbolasers hit the Death Star? It's the size of a freaking moon: it wouldn't even matter. Unless you're telling me that the Rebel fleet can just... obliterate a moon covered in guns.

I'm insisting on it because everything says it does, such as novels and actual quotes saying its heavily shielded. You're ignoring it because X-Wings can bypass the Death Star's defenses.

I'm ignoring your theory because it stands in contradiction to every other moon and planet covering shield in Star Wars, which block everything: fighters, blasters, cruisers, communications, etc. You're effectively telling me that Scarif - a little base which held the Death Star plans - had better shields than the Death Star itself. The only "evidence" for an energy shield covering the Death Star 1 superstructure is a magnetic field that blocked nothing: there isn't a single instance of this "shield" deflecting anything at all, nor did anyone ever actually say the entire superstructure is shielded.

 

[ByAsura]

So you're saying that the Rebel fleet wouldn't be able to land even a single hit? That's absolutely non sensical, and contradicts the fact that X-Wings suceeded in destroying it because the Empire didn't believe it was possible for small crafts. The Rebel Fleet contains ships on par with Star Destroyers, which are known to bombard planetary surfaces.

No, you're ignoring everything actually said in that Star Wars film, books, etc. just because you can't believe it's vulnerable to small ships. No, that's not my evidence, I've never used that, except once when I said it might be for containment or blocking energy-based attacks. You're the one who keeps bringing it up. Except every book Soldier Blue brought up, and quotes from the movie I've given that say "It's heavily shielded".

 

[Idazmi]

So you're saying that the Rebel fleet wouldn't be able to land even a single hit? That's absolutely non sensical.

You know good and well that's not what I said. Either that, or you're skimming through my comments without actually reading them. Either way, I feel personally insulted.

The only actual defenses we see against ships are small, man operated turrets, and it generally relies on fleets for protection. The Rebel Fleet contains ships on par with Star Destroyers, which are known to bombard planetary surfaces.

The Last Jedi Opening Scene HD BLURAY Quality - First Order Fleet Arrives

Like that? Are you telling me the Rebel fleet has multiple Mandator IV dreadnoughts? Unless they do, I don't see them doing more than scratch damage to the Death Star before bring blown away by it's turbolasers, which would outnumber their ship's guns well into the millions.

No, you're ignoring everything actually said in that Star Wars film, books, etc. just because you can't believe it's vulnerable to small ships.

No, I certainly do believe it's vulnerable to small ships, because it's turbolasers are designed to engage large ships. That's obvious fact.

No, that's not my evidence, I've never used that at all except once when I said it might be for containment or to block energy-based attacks. You're the one who keeps bringing it up. Except everything Soldier Blue brought up, and quotes from the movie that I've given that say "It's heavily shielded".

Which can mean a lot more than "has a giant moon-sized energy shield covering the whole thing", especially considering that one interpretation of that sentence is clearly not the right one: there simply is no giant moon-sized energy shield covering the whole thing.

 

[ByAsura]

I didn't mean to insult you, but it seems you're also being a bit oversensitive here.

The small, man operated turrets thing was an accident and I've taken it out. That ship there is one of the latest and most powerful ships within the First Order, it's not a fair comparison. Also, you've just used an undisprovable statement. I can't disprove you're statement of only Mandator IV dreadnoughts being able to harm a Death Star, but you've got to provide evidence in the first place. The wiki says it numbers into the tens of thousands, but I'm not sure if those numbers are reliable.

An obvious fact that proves my point about its defenses.

Again, I've never said the shield covers the entire thing, in fact I've frequently said otherwise. What's more likely, that in a world full of energy shield, "heavily shielded" means "heavily defended", or that it does have some form of fleet and turret protection?

 

[Idazmi]

I didn't mean to insult you, but it seems you're also being a bit oversensitive here.

"Oversensitive?" Your question "So you're saying that the Rebel fleet wouldn't be able to land even a single hit?" is not only incredibly misleading: I outright accounted for turbolasers hitting the Death Star! You said that either intentionally to misdirect, or you said it as a result of not taking my statements seriously enough to actually read them. Either way, it's insulting.

The small, man operated turrets thing was an accident and I've taken it out. That ship there is one of the latest and most powerful ships within the First Order, it's not a fair comparison.

That's clearly an attempt at distracting the topic: how, exactly, would the Rebel Fleet do crippling damage to the Death Star - a Moon-sized battlestation - without Mandator IV dreadnoughts? I remind you the Death Star is as big as a moon.

Also, you've just used an undisprovable statement. I can't disprove you're statement of only Mandator IV dreadnoughts being able to harm a Death Star, but you've got to provide evidence in the first place. The wiki says it numbers into the tens of thousands, but I'm not sure if those numbers are reliable.

X-wings, while dodging turbolaser fire, were able to shoot through the outer armor of the Death Star to destroy and disable some of the Death Star's surface guns in a limited area and allow the Y-wings to attack the Exhaust Port, which would destroy the entire station if they hit it with a proton torpedo. The Mandator IV would just blow massive holes in the Death Star from orbital distance. You're the one who needs to prove that the far less powerful Rebel Cruisers (like an MC-80), which cannot dodge turbolaser fire, can survive long enough against a gun-covered moon to meaningfully damage the Death Star: that was your entire premise. I shouldn't need to explain this, but if the Superlaser is still intact afterwards, the Rebels lose.

An obvious fact that proves my point about its defenses.

Now I know you're being intellectually dishonest on purpose. The existence of giant turbolasers on the DS1 dos not imply or prove the existence of an energy shield covering the DS1, which is the point of discussion.

Again, I've never said the shield covers the entire thing, in fact I've frequently said otherwise. What's more likely, that in a world full of energy shield, "heavily shielded" means "heavily defended", or that it does have some form of fleet and turret protection?

What's likely is the Empire using their existing demonstrated planetary shield technology - which is shown to block pretty much everything - instead of some completely different, inferior energy shield that specifically doesn't block fighters and is only "seen" once, ever. Also likely, given Imperial arrogance, is the idea that they wouldn't bother energy shielding a moon sized planet-obliterating warship at all because (in their eyes) it's immense size and power makes that unnecessary. That lines up with the fear tactics of the Tarkin Doctrine.

Edit: specified that the subject is an energy shield.

 

[ByAsura]

First of all, you were right before, as I did skim that section before. That's why I didn't notice that portion until after. Secondly, what I meant is that you're sort of over dramatising this, and it seems I was completely right if you're accusing me of intentional misdirection or "taking [your] statements seriously enough to actually read them."

I've already covered this topic: Rebel Starcruisers are roughtly comparable to Star Destroyers, a small fleet of which have destroyed planetary surfaces in minutes. I'm sure they could easily destroy something that's only 160 kilometers in diameter and mostly hollow. Also, stop with this line of logic, Rebels don't even have those kinds of ships so it's an unfair comparison to begin with. If a small X-Wing can blast small holes in an outer layer of the Death Star, think of what a starcruiser could do.

If the Death Star could gun down a whole Rebel Fleet, it would have done it in either movie. You're the one who needs to prove it can, not me, as this is the basis of your entire set of claims. This would also rely on none of thousands the Starcruisers firing even a single shot.

Now I know you're a hypocrite. The point was that its Turbolaser defenses aren't adequate.

Like you've said so many times, the Death Star is the size of a moon. It's entirely possible that they couldn't. The second Death Star and Starkiller Base were far larger, and the former had a shield directly powered by a shield generator on another planet. The superlaser takes hours to recharge, that's why its given so many defenses. The only flaw was that they thought X-Wings weren't capable of defeating it.

 

[Idazmi]

First of all, you were right before, as I did skim that section before. That's why I didn't notice that portion until after. Secondly, what I meant is that you're sort of over dramatising this, and it seems I was completely right if you're accusing me of intentional misdirection or "taking [your] statements seriously enough to actually read them."

It was either one or the other, and you just admitted the latter. In a debate, it pays to pay attention.

I've already covered this topic: Rebel Starcruisers are roughtly comparable to Star Destroyers, a small fleet of which have destroyed planetary surfaces in minutes. I'm sure they could easily destroy something that's only 160 kilometers in diameter and mostly hollow. Also, stop with this line of logic, Rebels don't even have those kinds of ships so it's an unfair comparison to begin with. If a small X-Wing can blast small holes in an outer layer of the Death Star, think of what a starcruiser could do.

So in a nutshell, you're saying that Rebel Cruisers can do far, FAR more than the demonstrated damage of the Mandator IV and in less time, despite insisting that the Mandator IV is beyond their capabilities. Good to know.

If the Death Star could gun down a whole Rebel Fleet, it would have done it in either movie. You're the one who needs to prove it can, not me, as this is the basis of your entire set of claims. This would also rely on none of thousands the Starcruisers firing even a single shot. Now I know you're a hypocrite. The point was that its Turbolaser defenses aren't adequate.

Thus, you invalidate your first paragraph. You are lying, bold-faced. You know, I know, everyone here knows innately that a small fleet of Rebel Cruisers cannot outgun the Death Star's turbolasers. Why not? Because, funnily enough, it has infinitely more turbolasers, and is literally millions of times more massive than the combined tonnage of that fleet. The very concept is silly on it's face.

Like you've said so many times, the Death Star is the size of a moon. It's entirely possible that they couldn't. The second Death Star and Starkiller Base were far larger, and the former had a shield directly powered by a shield generator on another planet. The superlaser takes hours to recharge, that's why its given so many defenses. The only flaw was that they thought X-Wings weren't capable of defeating it.

Entirely possible that they couldn't shield a small moon powered by Khyber crystals when they can shield an entire planet like Scarif? Yes, they can. The shield on Endor was smaller than either of the Death Stars, and it prevented X-wings from attacking the reactor until it was down. Same with the shield on Scarif. They could shield the Death Star 1: but they simply didn't.

 

[ByAsura]

No, I'm saying Rebel Cruisers are comparable to Star Destroyers, which have canonically destroyed the surfaces of planets in minutes. Also, one instance of a more powerful ship not doing the same doesn't invalidate anything, Star Destroyers do this and similar feats very consistently.

What? Can you explain how? No, you're just treating your opinion as if its fact. You insist that the Death Star has no shield defenses just because small ships bypass it, and yet you say the Death Star can destroy an entire fleet like it's nothing despite never having done that on screen. Also, where's your proof that turbolasers have more range than a ship just because the Death Star is very powerful?

They'd also have to power an entire planet-destroying superlaser, the main weapon of the Death Star, in addition to life support, tens of thousands of guns, etc.

 

[Idazmi]

No, I'm saying Rebel Cruisers are comparable to Star Destroyers, which have canonically destroyed the surfaces of planets in minutes. Also, one instance of a more powerful ship not doing the same doesn't invalidate anything, Star Destroyers do this and similar feats very consistently.

Star Destroyer Supercut

That is a compilation of every scene in the Star Wars movie franchise where a Star Destroyer is so much as witnessed. No planet surface ever came anywhere close to being destroyed by them in any of the movies, across 40 years of the franchise history.


The Last Jedi Opening Scene HD BLURAY Quality - First Order Fleet Arrives

That's the First Order's Mandator IV. It demonstrates far higher firepower in a single shot than any Star Destroyer of any class ever seen so far, and it's still orders of magnitude too weak to do what you're saying a typical ISD can do. You'd need thousands of Mandator IV's to destroy the surface of a planet, and a lot more than a few minutes for them to destroy it in.

What? Can you explain how? No, you're just treating your opinion as if its fact. You insist that the Death Star has no shield defenses just because small ships bypass it, and yet you say the Death Star can destroy an entire fleet like it's nothing despite never having done that on screen. Also, where's your proof that turbolasers have more range than a ship just because the Death Star is very powerful?

Where's your evidence of Star Destroyers destroying planet surfaces? The evidence of the Death Star being able to defeat the Rebel fleet comes from the fact that it's a moon-sized ball of turbolasers: show me something: a fleet of ISDs had to have been seen destroying at least an unarmed moon with their turbolasers for your argument to make sense.

They'd also have to power an entire planet-destroying superlaser, the main weapon of the Death Star, in addition to life support, tens of thousands of guns, etc.

So? Charge the shields from the same power supply as the Superlaser when it's not in use. Done.

 

[ByAsura]

There's not just films, Star Wars disney canon also includes books and comics. In Darth Vader (2017) #17, three Star Destroyers commence orbital bombardment. It is confirmed later that Vader plans to level the surface, and they actually depopulate it. In the canon novel Battlefront: Twilight Company, Star Destroyers can lay waste to continents. That's just a fraction of the quotes I can gather if you need more. Also, those hits from the Mandator IV were seen from space, so they're not weak, and it certainly doesn't disprove that they could level a planet's surface via a large bombardment.

There's not just the superlaser, as I said, it's also turret defenses, life support, etc. Need I remind you that this is in the middle of battle, so they may be able to divert power from the superlaser, but that's about it.

 

[Idazmi]

There's not just films, Star Wars disney canon also includes books and comics. In Darth Vader (2017) #17, three Star Destroyers commence orbital bombardment. It is confirmed later that Vader plans to level the surface, and they actually depopulate it. In the canon novel Battlefront: Twilight Company, Star Destroyers can lay waste to continents. That's just a fraction of the quotes I can gather if you need more. Also, those hits from the Mandator IV were seen from space, so they're not weak, and it certainly doesn't disprove that they could level a planet's surface via a large bombardment.

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Mon_Cala

"In Luke Skywalker's dream in 34 ABY on Ahch-To, in which he imagined how things were if he hadn't joined the Rebel Alliance and instead stayed on Tatooine and married Camie Marstrap, the Empire used the Death Star to not only destroy Alderaan, but also Mon Cala and Chandrila." - Wookiepedia.

"Mon Cala was one of the worlds Emperor Palpatine intended to target following the completion of the second Death Star, which he planned to use to destroy the rebel stronghold and wipe out the Rebellion through sheer terror." - Wookiepedia.

Those were both taken from the "canon" page. So... why blow up a "depopulated" planet? Everything there would already be dead.

"During the early rebellion against the Galactic Empire, Mon Cala was listed as an Alliance safe world despite the Imperial occupation. It was included in a map of the galaxy with a legend listing the various Alliance safe worlds, starfighter hubs at level five or higher, rebel operations sectors and regional headquarters, and shadow planets with deep-space caches." - Wookiepedia.

I'd imagine it's kind of hard to use a planet as a base or a hub of any kind when the surface is obliterated. It seems as if the accounts of Mon Cala's destruction were greatly exaggerated.

Reading those comic scans you posted, nothing in them implies at any point that "Vader plans to level the surface" or that the fleet is even capable of such a thing, nor is it confirmed that Mon Cala was "depopulated": we still see oceans, and we see a land based invasion of the planet in the same issue, and Mon Calamarian ships escaping the still-intact planet.

Going further, this scan, which you posted, shows turbolaser fire coming directly from the fighter hangars... there are no turbolasers present at that location on a Star Destroyer. Also, considering the visible damage planetside, I highly doubt that the scale of these explosions are meant to be taken literally instead of dramatically: they are grossly out of scale with every showing of Star Destroyer firepower in the entirety of the films and series, and even in the same comic during the selfsame bombardment event. If they are meant to be taken literally, it confirms my suspicion that the contents of these other media (outside the main films) are neither reviewed nor strictly regulated for adherence to existing canon, and thus are inadmissible as feats for the purposes of this wiki. The same holds true of that novel excerpt.

In short: you still have no evidence that the Rebel fleet can destroy the unshielded Death Star Superstructure, let alone while under heavy turbolaser fire.

There's not just the superlaser, as I said, it's also turret defenses, life support, etc. Need I remind you that this is in the middle of battle, so they may be able to divert power from the superlaser, but that's about it.

There's not one bloody reason that they couldn't use the power from the Khyber crystals and use it to regenerate the shields when the Superlaser isn't charging.

 

[ByAsura]

Way to take everything out of context. During the early rebellion against the Galactic Empire, Mon Cala was listed as an Alliance safe world despite the Imperial occupation. Also, you're saying this as if there's no possible way that anyone could possibly rebuild the planet in any way. There was still an ocean and at least enough land for Darth Vader to have a duel. Yes there is, the guy says "Are they trying to wipe us off the planet." No, there's no exaggeration here as the dialogue points to everything else. Also, I said they destroyed the surface, not the entire crust and they did kill billions before people begin to evacuate. This scan seems to heavily imply that they did at least remove all the people of Mon Cala.

Did I say it was a turbolaser? No, I just said they bombarded the planet, and they call it an orbital canno (no idea). Plus, you conveniently ignored the scan about Star Destroyers being able to bombard continents and the Mandator's bombs being seen from space. During the Liberation of Kashyyyk, a group of star destroyers destroy Kashyyyk over time with world-scouring weapons, and a Resurgent-class star destroyer can destroy the surface of a planet.

• Massive turbolaser turrets and heavy ion cannons dot the flanks of the Finalizer's upper hull, with an additional brace of forward batteries set on either side of the bow. Designed for orbital assaults and slugging matches with enemy capital ships, these turbolasers can overload shields, punch through thick armour, and reduce planetary surfaces to molten slag.

 

[Idazmi]

Way to take everything out of context.

No, that's what you're doing, by saying that Mon Cala's entire population was destroyed when the canon outright says otherwise.

During the early rebellion against the Galactic Empire, Mon Cala was listed as an Alliance safe world despite the Imperial occupation. Also, you're saying this as if there's no possible way that anyone could possibly rebuild the planet in any way.

Name me a canonical Star Wars tech that can repair a planet that had it's surface obliterated.

There was still an ocean and at least enough land for Darth Vader to have a duel.

Thus, destroying your argument.

Yes there is, the guy says "Are they trying to wipe us off the planet." No, there's no exaggeration here as the dialogue points to everything else. Also, I said they destroyed the surface, not the entire crust and they did kill billions before people begin to evacuate. This scan seems to heavily imply that they did at least remove all the people of Mon Cala.

Meanwhile, Man Cala was listed as an Alliance safe world by the Rebel Alliance: a world with supposedly no population at all. That, and you can easily kill billions without destroying the entire surface, or even seriously damaging the surface at all.

Did I say it was a turbolaser? No, I just said they bombarded the planet, and they call it an orbital canno (no idea). Plus, you conveniently ignored the scan about Star Destroyers being able to bombard continents and the Mandator's bombs being seen from space. During the Liberation of Kashyyyk, a group of star destroyers destroy Kashyyyk over time with world-scouring weapons, and a Resurgent-class star destroyer can destroy the surface of a planet.

1. No "orbital cannons" are listed as part of any Star Destroyer's armament anywhere in Star Wars lore. You can check the Wookiepedia page to confirm that.

2. No weapons of any kind are fired from the fighter bay of a Star Destroyer, because no weapons exist there aside from the fighters themselves. The writer of that comic should have known that.

3. If the Empire could use it's regular ships to "reduce planetary surfaces to molten slag", the Death Star would be utterly irrelevant.

4. The Death Star's Single Reactor Ignition and the Mandator IV's demonstration in the main films give every reason to believe that their demonstrations are beyond the capabilities of a typical Star Destroyer.

5. There are multiple points in the Star Wars films where "planet scouring" weapons would have come in handy, yet were not used. Most importantly: when Leia sent the Death Star plans down to Tatooine in A New Hope. Vader had two Star Destroyers in that system, and Tatooine is a pointless backwater world with no defenses: all he had to do is slag the planet to destroy the plans. He didn't.

These alternate media couldn't be more non-canon if they tried to be: they're just ignoring the films wholesale and doing whatever.