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This thread I made to list the current cosmology of DC and where it fits in the tiering system.
I've also made this because I don't agree with dividing the DC cosmology to several cosmologies because it creates more problems than it solves, like:
1- DC doesn't consider the stories of Snyder, Gaiman, Morrison, and DeMatties to have separate cosmologies despite what it seems. The wiki dividing them will make it have it's own canon separate from DC.
2- The writers only mention what serves their stories. They don't mention every little detail about the cosmology. So, separating by writers is to be blind to the large majority of the cosmology.
3- Dividing the cosmology will unnecessarily add to each character 4+ keys based on writers. It will be confusing when you add multiple Keys with different tiers that might have vast gaps between them for the exact same character. It will be possible for some versions of the characters to have tiers higher than versions of other characters that are by nature or implication above them. That would be nonsensical and not dependable.
4- Some of the contradictions used in the blog as an excuse to separate the cosmology are trivial and exaggerated.
(Like Father Time and Mother Night who are abstractions and can fit into any creation story)
5- And I noticed the blog uses the old hierarchy of Mike Carey, which is no longer canon to the current Vertigo and is completely ignored by it, as the the basis of Vertigo's hierarchy.
Mike Carey's cosmology should have a separate key.
6- Also, creating more keys will add a lot more work for the staff. Because instead of revising the many characters of DC, they'll be revising the many keys of the many characters of the several cosmologies of DC.
My suggestion:
1- Make them one cosmology. And the contradictions are solved by making the newer statements retcon/falsify the older ones. Which is how DC itself operates.
2- The different stories about the beginning of the creation should co-exist until the comics clarifies how do they fit with each other.
3- Any statement that was left not retconned and have nothing to contradict it, should be used.
The stories that are clearly no longer canon and have been retconned, or the ones that didn't fit anywhere from the start are the only ones that should be considered separate cosmologies.
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The Cosmology
The Map
Note #1: The map is not 100% accurate at this point. A lot has changed since Death Metal. Like the Orrery now contains countless universes not just 52. The Source Wall no longer exists. As well as Earth Omega and the Elseworld being at the center and so on. Also, there were things not shown like the realms of the other Endless for example. Destiny, Death, Destruction, etc. who have realms just like Dream.
Note #2: The Map can be used to scale the realms, not its inhabitants, which is a common mistake. The Presence for example is clearly not limited to any sphere.
The Tiering:
A Single Universe: Was stated to be infinite and expanding at times, And implied as being having at least 200 trillion lightyears of length at other times. As well as the fact that universes had a source wall bounding them-- Justice League (2018) Annual #1/ The Man of Steel (1991) #15
Affecting/ Destroying/Creating on this level as a total is 3-A, possibly high 3-A
The Orrery of Worlds: The Sphere on the map which contains the material universes. It used to have 52 universes, but after the events of Death Metal, the Orrery was remade into an infinite multiverse with countless of universes by the Hands. The universes exist in the same physical space, kept separate by differing vibrational speeds. The Orrery also has the Bleed which is the realm of imagination the exists outside of time. Everything existing in it backward and forward simultaneously. --Infinite Frontier (2021) #0/ Justice League (2018) #19
Affecting/ Destroying/Creating on this level is low 1-C
The Hypertime: A web of timestream outside the multiverse. Capable of accessing any place that have been or could be. All realities and possibilities manifest there --Justice League (2016) #33/ Sideways #5
Affecting/Destroying/Creating on this level is Low 1-C
The Sphere of The Gods: A sphere above the material multiverse, encompassing it. It contains multiple realms that are infinite. Which includes the Dreaming, Heaven which has a universe for each soul, Hell which is Heavens shadow and equal.
There are higher planes of existence/realities within it. Not every realm within it is shown on the map like Destiny's garden or Destructionsphere --DC One Million (1998) #1/Sandman (1989)/The Phantom Stranger (2013) #11/The Dreaming (2018) #20
Affecting/Destroying/Creating on this level is 1-C
Comic Book Limbo: It is where forgotten characters and ideas live. A realm above the SoTG, the Bleed, and the Orrery as seen in the map.
Affecting/Destroying/Creating on this level is 1-C
The Monitor Sphere: Archetypal world made of thoughts where time and scale are more profound, and time exists as clockwork pattern painted across the sky. Home to the Monitors, aspects of Mar Novu. It is beyond the Comic Book Limbo, SoTG, and the Orrery. Its inhabitants call the Orrery, the germ world.
Affecting/Destroying/Creating on this level is 1-C
The Dark Multiverse: The dark side of the multiverse, where bad possibilites become reality. It was stated to be larger than the multiverse.
Affecting/Destroying/Creating on this level is 1-C
The Omniverse: It contains an infinite number of multiverses created by Perpetua's race, the Supercelestials, using the energies granted to them by the Source.
The omniverse contains other mutiverses and versions of the multiverse. That includes Multiverse 2, which is the pre-crises multiverse that had infinite dimensions. Worlds beyond worlds --Death Metal (2020) #1 /Infinite Frontier (2021) #6 /DC Universe presents (1978) #2
Affecting/Destroying/Creating on this level is High 1-B
The Supercelestials: Creators of the multiverses. They are above the multiverses they create and shape it and control it as they desire through the Sixth Dimensions which is the highest plane of existence --Justice League (2018) #22
The Supercelestials are Low 1-A
The Sixth Dimension: The control room of the multiverse. Accessible only to the most powerful beings. It is where beings like Perpetua, Overmonitor, Anti-Monitor, and World Forger shaped the multiverse, and created Hypertime.
Affecting/Creating/Destroying on this level is low 1-A scaling to the Supercelestials themselves.
The Hands: According to Snyder's interview, the Hands are what the Supercelstials become after they die creating a multiverse. They ascend to an even higher level of existence within the Overvoid, becoming the Hands of the Source. Who govern beings like Perpetua. They were also stated to exist at the end of the Overvoid, which sees the multiverse (probably including the sixth dimension) as a flaw --Justice League (2018) #22
The Hands are 1-A
The Void/The Overvoid/The Light: Is the blank canvas on which creations are drawn, sleep of Brahma, God's unconsciousness, between places--beyond all places. --Justice League Dark (2016) #39 /Lucifer (2018) #5
Affecting/Destroying/Creating on this level is 1-A
Lucifer Morningstar/The Great Darkness/The Great Evil Beast: Created by the Presence to define his light. He is The primordial darkness which preceded the Overvoid/The Light. It is the absence of light. The non-existence which was once all there is. On how Lucifer is the Great Darkness, it is explained in the Dreaming that gods and monsters can change their stories nad nature fit themeselves into different belief systems --Justice League Incarnate (2022) #4 The Dreaming (2018) #10
Affecting/Destroying/Creating on this level is 1-A
The Presence/God/Brahma/The Source: The creator. He had to create Lucifer/his shadow/the dark in order for himself to exist as a defined being. Otherwise, he is the nothingness that was all-ness. The world was drowned in the void and he rose it from the depths. Molded the void into form. And Existence separates from his totality. The Great Darkness is the absence of his light, and his shadow partner, while the void his unconsciousness of which all things had emerged. All of existence is a dream brought forth by him --Lucifer (2018) #3 & #11 & #12 /Justice League Dark (2016) #39 /Doctor Fate 1990 #20
The Presence/God/Brahma is High 1-A For statements like dreaming existence, and the void being his unconsciousness, "existence separates from his totality" imply he encompasses existence .
I've also made this because I don't agree with dividing the DC cosmology to several cosmologies because it creates more problems than it solves, like:
1- DC doesn't consider the stories of Snyder, Gaiman, Morrison, and DeMatties to have separate cosmologies despite what it seems. The wiki dividing them will make it have it's own canon separate from DC.
2- The writers only mention what serves their stories. They don't mention every little detail about the cosmology. So, separating by writers is to be blind to the large majority of the cosmology.
3- Dividing the cosmology will unnecessarily add to each character 4+ keys based on writers. It will be confusing when you add multiple Keys with different tiers that might have vast gaps between them for the exact same character. It will be possible for some versions of the characters to have tiers higher than versions of other characters that are by nature or implication above them. That would be nonsensical and not dependable.
4- Some of the contradictions used in the blog as an excuse to separate the cosmology are trivial and exaggerated.
(Like Father Time and Mother Night who are abstractions and can fit into any creation story)
5- And I noticed the blog uses the old hierarchy of Mike Carey, which is no longer canon to the current Vertigo and is completely ignored by it, as the the basis of Vertigo's hierarchy.
Mike Carey's cosmology should have a separate key.
6- Also, creating more keys will add a lot more work for the staff. Because instead of revising the many characters of DC, they'll be revising the many keys of the many characters of the several cosmologies of DC.
My suggestion:
1- Make them one cosmology. And the contradictions are solved by making the newer statements retcon/falsify the older ones. Which is how DC itself operates.
2- The different stories about the beginning of the creation should co-exist until the comics clarifies how do they fit with each other.
3- Any statement that was left not retconned and have nothing to contradict it, should be used.
The stories that are clearly no longer canon and have been retconned, or the ones that didn't fit anywhere from the start are the only ones that should be considered separate cosmologies.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Cosmology
The Map
Note #1: The map is not 100% accurate at this point. A lot has changed since Death Metal. Like the Orrery now contains countless universes not just 52. The Source Wall no longer exists. As well as Earth Omega and the Elseworld being at the center and so on. Also, there were things not shown like the realms of the other Endless for example. Destiny, Death, Destruction, etc. who have realms just like Dream.
Note #2: The Map can be used to scale the realms, not its inhabitants, which is a common mistake. The Presence for example is clearly not limited to any sphere.
The Tiering:
A Single Universe: Was stated to be infinite and expanding at times, And implied as being having at least 200 trillion lightyears of length at other times. As well as the fact that universes had a source wall bounding them-- Justice League (2018) Annual #1/ The Man of Steel (1991) #15
Affecting/ Destroying/Creating on this level as a total is 3-A, possibly high 3-A
The Orrery of Worlds: The Sphere on the map which contains the material universes. It used to have 52 universes, but after the events of Death Metal, the Orrery was remade into an infinite multiverse with countless of universes by the Hands. The universes exist in the same physical space, kept separate by differing vibrational speeds. The Orrery also has the Bleed which is the realm of imagination the exists outside of time. Everything existing in it backward and forward simultaneously. --Infinite Frontier (2021) #0/ Justice League (2018) #19
Affecting/ Destroying/Creating on this level is low 1-C
The Hypertime: A web of timestream outside the multiverse. Capable of accessing any place that have been or could be. All realities and possibilities manifest there --Justice League (2016) #33/ Sideways #5
Affecting/Destroying/Creating on this level is Low 1-C
The Sphere of The Gods: A sphere above the material multiverse, encompassing it. It contains multiple realms that are infinite. Which includes the Dreaming, Heaven which has a universe for each soul, Hell which is Heavens shadow and equal.
There are higher planes of existence/realities within it. Not every realm within it is shown on the map like Destiny's garden or Destructionsphere --DC One Million (1998) #1/Sandman (1989)/The Phantom Stranger (2013) #11/The Dreaming (2018) #20
Affecting/Destroying/Creating on this level is 1-C
Comic Book Limbo: It is where forgotten characters and ideas live. A realm above the SoTG, the Bleed, and the Orrery as seen in the map.
Affecting/Destroying/Creating on this level is 1-C
The Monitor Sphere: Archetypal world made of thoughts where time and scale are more profound, and time exists as clockwork pattern painted across the sky. Home to the Monitors, aspects of Mar Novu. It is beyond the Comic Book Limbo, SoTG, and the Orrery. Its inhabitants call the Orrery, the germ world.
Affecting/Destroying/Creating on this level is 1-C
The Dark Multiverse: The dark side of the multiverse, where bad possibilites become reality. It was stated to be larger than the multiverse.
Affecting/Destroying/Creating on this level is 1-C
The Omniverse: It contains an infinite number of multiverses created by Perpetua's race, the Supercelestials, using the energies granted to them by the Source.
The omniverse contains other mutiverses and versions of the multiverse. That includes Multiverse 2, which is the pre-crises multiverse that had infinite dimensions. Worlds beyond worlds --Death Metal (2020) #1 /Infinite Frontier (2021) #6 /DC Universe presents (1978) #2
Affecting/Destroying/Creating on this level is High 1-B
The Supercelestials: Creators of the multiverses. They are above the multiverses they create and shape it and control it as they desire through the Sixth Dimensions which is the highest plane of existence --Justice League (2018) #22
The Supercelestials are Low 1-A
The Sixth Dimension: The control room of the multiverse. Accessible only to the most powerful beings. It is where beings like Perpetua, Overmonitor, Anti-Monitor, and World Forger shaped the multiverse, and created Hypertime.
Affecting/Creating/Destroying on this level is low 1-A scaling to the Supercelestials themselves.
The Hands: According to Snyder's interview, the Hands are what the Supercelstials become after they die creating a multiverse. They ascend to an even higher level of existence within the Overvoid, becoming the Hands of the Source. Who govern beings like Perpetua. They were also stated to exist at the end of the Overvoid, which sees the multiverse (probably including the sixth dimension) as a flaw --Justice League (2018) #22
The Hands are 1-A
The Void/The Overvoid/The Light: Is the blank canvas on which creations are drawn, sleep of Brahma, God's unconsciousness, between places--beyond all places. --Justice League Dark (2016) #39 /Lucifer (2018) #5
Affecting/Destroying/Creating on this level is 1-A
Lucifer Morningstar/The Great Darkness/The Great Evil Beast: Created by the Presence to define his light. He is The primordial darkness which preceded the Overvoid/The Light. It is the absence of light. The non-existence which was once all there is. On how Lucifer is the Great Darkness, it is explained in the Dreaming that gods and monsters can change their stories nad nature fit themeselves into different belief systems --Justice League Incarnate (2022) #4 The Dreaming (2018) #10
Affecting/Destroying/Creating on this level is 1-A
The Presence/God/Brahma/The Source: The creator. He had to create Lucifer/his shadow/the dark in order for himself to exist as a defined being. Otherwise, he is the nothingness that was all-ness. The world was drowned in the void and he rose it from the depths. Molded the void into form. And Existence separates from his totality. The Great Darkness is the absence of his light, and his shadow partner, while the void his unconsciousness of which all things had emerged. All of existence is a dream brought forth by him --Lucifer (2018) #3 & #11 & #12 /Justice League Dark (2016) #39 /Doctor Fate 1990 #20
The Presence/God/Brahma is High 1-A For statements like dreaming existence, and the void being his unconsciousness, "existence separates from his totality" imply he encompasses existence .
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