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DC/Vertigo Cosmology Redo (Part 2 of 2)

Trigger said:
Hmmm, it seems feasible, but can you provide some evidence that support that claim? I wanna see.
Click to expand...
The basic gist that all of Creation is just a projection of the true reality is shared across all the stories. That all levels of existence including Heaven and Hell are not real but just the human psyche choosing to create their own versions of afterlives. That Maya is the reality from which souls are attached to but is not truly representative of their actual infinite nature.

So, what I was thinking was merging all of DeMatteis's stories including his Vertigo work. Another story called Millennium Fever also goes over the nature of Reality and matches how DeMatteis tells his story.

Seekers into the Mystery is a telling tale about the relationship between human consciousness with reality and that of Maya and God. Mercy is a very telling tale of how some infinite being radiates love and comes in many forms in his Creation whether it chooses male or female projections. The Last One is a telling tale of an angel that is on the path of guiding others to the truth and eventually his fallen state is restored back to its formal glory after it physically leaves the mortal plane after telling us that God is the director and he's projecting his play(Creation) and that everything will be in unison again. Millennium Fever features Jerome learning about Maiya the nature of Reality and the power of the human psyche in making and shaping Creation. It has very similar storytelling and even art style as Seekers and Mercy. Brooklyn Dreams also is very good in telling the nature of God being the one to create the wheels of duality and existing above duality itself.

We don't need individual aspects of the storytelling but a rather composite view of how Creation functions. All these stories feature Maya as a composite term for Creation/Illsuion. God emanated all of Creation with these two characters being overarching characters that blend these stories very well and there isn't much of a difference in how Maya is described in all the stories. Millennium Fever treats Maya in a more sympathetic route while still remaining a weaver of dreams and illusions.
 
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ProfectusInfinity said:
Millenium Fever is a creator-owned title.
Click to expand...
So are all the other titles I just mentioned. Maya and God are composite things, as long as they adhere to the canon of the Creator and Creation linked as Dreamer and Dream, I see it as fine. I will not go into super keen detail on the storytelling of each but the overall message that Creation is a dream, and God is the true reality adhering to a lot of Hindu and Buddhist philosophies of real, unreality, existence, non-existence, etc….which these comics get their groundwork and etsbloashed framework from.

I'm trying to connect them under the same premise of Creation's origin and description of how everything is illusory and a creation of the human psyche.
 
Since both Seekers Into the Mystery and Millennium Fever are creator-owned, they're much better off staying separate. Although the ideas are similar, this seems a bit far-fetched.
 
VeryGoofyToddler2 said:
The basic gist that all of Creation is just a projection of the true reality is shared across all the stories. That all levels of existence including Heaven and Hell are not real but just the human psyche choosing to create their own versions of afterlives. That Maya is the reality from which souls are attached to but is not truly representative of their actual infinite nature.

So, what I was thinking was merging all of DeMatteis's stories including his Vertigo work. Another story called Millennium Fever also goes over the nature of Reality and matches how DeMatteis tells his story.

Seekers into the Mystery is a telling tale about the relationship between human consciousness with reality and that of Maya and God. Mercy is a very telling tale of how some infinite being radiates love and comes in many forms in his Creation whether it chooses male or female projections. The Last One is a telling tale of an angel that is on the path of guiding others to the truth and eventually his fallen state is restored back to its formal glory after it physically leaves the mortal plane after telling us that God is the director and he's projecting his play(Creation) and that everything will be in unison again. Millennium Fever features Jerome learning about Maiya the nature of Reality and the power of the human psyche in making and shaping Creation. It has very similar storytelling and even art style as Seekers and Mercy. Brooklyn Dreams also is very good in telling the nature of God being the one to create the wheels of duality and existing above duality itself.

We don't need individual aspects of the storytelling but a rather composite view of how Creation functions. All these stories feature Maya as a composite term for Creation/Illsuion. God emanated all of Creation with these two characters being overarching characters that blend these stories very well and there isn't much of a difference in how Maya is described in all the stories. Millennium Fever treats Maya in a more sympathetic route while still remaining a weaver of dreams and illusions.
Click to expand...
I find this concept of "Dream Cosmology" quite fascinating, especially with how DeMatteis consistently explores the nature of reality versus illusion across his works. The idea that Creation is a projection or a play orchestrated by God/Oversoul, and that Heaven, Hell, and even our perceptions of reality are shaped by the human psyche’s interaction with Maya, is something that’s clearly a recurring theme in his stories.

You mentioned some great examples, like Seekers into the Mystery, Mercy, and The Last One. In Seekers into the Mystery (Vertigo, 1996), the protagonist's journey through spiritual awakening directly ties into the idea of God as the ultimate reality, and how everything else—including Heaven and Hell—are just illusions or emanations from the true divine source. This fits right into the “Dream Cosmology” concept, where Maya represents the illusory nature of Creation that we, as finite beings, mistakenly take for reality.

Mercy (Vertigo, 1993) is another excellent example. The celestial figure Mercy is depicted as an embodiment of divine love, existing outside the confines of gender or form, further emphasizing the fluid, illusory nature of physical reality. The overarching theme that Creation is a reflection of divine consciousness aligns with this Dream Cosmology too—where Mercy’s radiance comes not from the illusion but from the divine force she represents.

Even The Last One (Vertigo, 1995) carries this theme. The story of an immortal angel, known as Myrwann, guiding others and eventually reuniting with God, directly parallels this cosmology. The final message in The Last One about Creation being like a play projected by God, with everything eventually returning to unity, reinforces the overarching concept you’ve outlined. In a sense, Maya is the illusory stage upon which this divine play unfolds.

Regarding Millennium Fever (Vertigo, 1995), the notion of the protagonist Jerome learning about the nature of reality and the human psyche’s role in shaping Creation is also a perfect fit. The philosophical exploration of duality and creation as a dreamlike illusion weaves seamlessly into this broader framework, where the distinction between the dream and the dreamer (or God) is blurred.

Bringing in Brooklyn Dreams (Paradox Press, 1994) as well adds another layer. In that story, DeMatteis uses a more personal, introspective lens to explore the nature of God and duality. The way reality is portrayed as a wheel of duality that God exists beyond, further underscores the concept that all perceived realities, or dualities, are illusions—again tying back to Maya as an illusion and God as the ultimate reality.

I think you’re onto something here with merging these works into a composite cosmology. The unifying thread in DeMatteis’s storytelling is this exploration of illusion (Maya) versus reality (God/Oversoul), and the notion that all aspects of Creation—from Heaven and Hell to human consciousness—are projections, emanations, or illusions within a divine dream.

But, while the idea of unifying DeMatteis's works into a single "Dream Cosmology" is intriguing, there are a few potential issues that could disapprove of it. One of the key concerns lies in the fact that each story is unique in its tone, themes, and narrative approach. For example, Brooklyn Dreams and Mercy are very different in terms of their philosophical depth and the way they explore the human psyche and divine reality. While both touch on themes of duality and illusion, Brooklyn Dreams is more autobiographical and introspective, focusing on personal growth and spirituality, whereas Mercy has a more mythic, allegorical tone. Combining them into a singular cosmology risks diluting their individual narratives and artistic intent.

Moreover, while the idea of Maya, or illusion, is a strong concept across many of these stories, not all of DeMatteis’s works explicitly or consistently align with this metaphysical interpretation. For instance, in The Last One, the focus is more on the journey of a fallen angel and the exploration of immortality and redemption, rather than purely on the illusion of reality. While there are metaphysical undertones, they don’t always directly parallel the more overt themes of illusion in Seekers into the Mystery or Millennium Fever.

Additionally, the stories are often set in distinct universes with different mythologies and rules. For example, Mercy and Seekers into the Mystery offer different interpretations of God and the divine, and while these interpretations share certain philosophical ideas, they aren't necessarily designed to fit within the same cosmological framework. Trying to merge them might overlook the specific narrative choices DeMatteis made for each universe.

Finally, the application of the Maya concept across all of these works could be seen as overly reductionist. DeMatteis’s stories often deal with complex spiritual and philosophical questions, and while Maya is one tool to explore those questions, it’s not the only lens through which his work can or should be understood. By focusing exclusively on this illusion/reality dichotomy, other themes—such as redemption, love, and personal transformation—might be overshadowed or underappreciated.

In conclusion, while there’s a compelling case for a "Dream Cosmology," the diversity in storytelling, themes, and intent across DeMatteis’s works may not fully support a unified theory without sacrificing some of the depth and individuality of each narrative.

In conclusion, while the idea of merging DeMatteis’s works into a unified "Dream Cosmology" is intriguing, it presents several challenges that might make it problematic, especially for something like Vs Battle Wiki, where clear distinctions between cosmologies are essential for proper tiering and analysis.

On the positive side, it’s true that DeMatteis often plays with the ideas of illusion and reality (Maya and the Oversoul/God) in his stories, and these themes show up in multiple works, including Seekers Into the Mystery, Mercy, and Millennium Fever. The concept that all of Creation is a projection of the true reality and that Heaven, Hell, and other realms are essentially illusions created by human consciousness definitely ties these works together. The use of Maya as a consistent metaphor for Creation and illusion supports the idea that DeMatteis is, in some ways, developing a single philosophical framework that spans his storytelling.

However, the risk comes in trying to force a complete unification of these cosmologies into one entity. Each story has its own unique elements, narrative context, and philosophical depth, even if they share common metaphysical themes. For instance, the way Millennium Fever approaches Maya is quite different in tone and interpretation compared to Seekers Into the Mystery or The Last One. Additionally, the concept of a “composite cosmology” might dilute the distinctiveness of each work, leading to an oversimplified understanding of what DeMatteis is trying to convey in each narrative. For Vs Battle Wiki, where consistency and clarity in cosmology are crucial for proper analysis and scaling, this could be an issue.

Moreover, each of these works operates in its own narrative universe, with its own set of rules. While Maya or illusion might be a shared concept, the specific mechanics of how reality operates in each universe can differ. For example, the Vertigo stories have a more grounded, mystical approach, while Brooklyn Dreams and Millennium Fever take a more personal, psychological route. Blending them together risks undermining the unique ways each story addresses the relationship between illusion and reality, leading to confusion when trying to apply cosmological rules to characters, especially in a tiering system that requires precision.

So, should you go ahead with this idea? While it’s an interesting thought experiment, I’d advise against fully merging DeMatteis’s cosmologies into one composite structure for Vs Battle Wiki. Instead, it might be better to highlight the recurring themes of Maya and illusion across his works while still respecting the differences in each cosmology. You can draw connections between his various stories without forcing them into a singular framework, which would preserve the integrity of the individual narratives. This way, you allow the distinct metaphysical layers of each story to stand on their own while still exploring their thematic unity.

In short, it’s worth exploring, but a full unification might not serve the purpose well for a structured and rigorous platform like Vs Battle Wiki. It’s best to keep the thematic connections while avoiding the pitfalls of a complete amalgamation.
 
Trigger said:
Well I'm not that good at summarizing things myself, plus my grammar isn't good, so I wrote a whole bunch of stuff and gave it to chatGpt to summarize and correct my words, grammar and punctuations. Even this is with the help of Grammerly.
Click to expand...
Since there's nothing interesting to talk about while we wait for the mods. I made it clear, that I'm only looking for very specific details that go with the Cosmology, not the unique storytelling.

Brooklyn Dreams being mentioned by me has nothing to do with the details of physiological storytelling. I just liked the description of God as it matches Doctor Fate in telling of a God that is beyond and the source is duality. It adds more layers and depth since the profile of God is quite empty when only relying on Doctor Fate, Spectre, or the Trinity of Sins.

Seekers into the Mystery is perfect for establishing the metaphor of Creation as Maya since she needs a profile. Any mention of illusion, unreality, Creation, play, trick, movie is an indirect reference to Maya, a composite term. The Primal Ocean is perfect in explaining an aspect of God, the Creator, that isn't established that great in Justice League Dark.

Mercy is a great telling of how radiants are made of the Love of the Divine. Though it’s important here is subpar compared to the others same with Last One but the metaphor of Creation being a play is important.

Millennium Fever is perfect for going over that human psyche projecting Creation as “baby gods.”
 
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Does anyone know if it's possible to apply the Amazo comic from JL Unlimited to DeMatteis' canon / cosmology??
 
Three things:
One, I agree with this.
Two, Would Darkseid get Tier 0 immortality since The Divine Presence is effectively protecting him until his fated time to meet his end ?
Three, wouldn't Spectre get Tier 0/High 1-A+ hax as the DeMatteis stories make it absurdly clear (as in they directly state it) that the Spectre is the focal point for The Divine Presence's powers and can actively use them ?
 
AndrewBennet said:
Forever people have some good showings
Click to expand...
Maybe for the Dark and the Source, but I don't recall anything particularly special in that run beyond that. I haven't read it in a bit though, so feel free to jog my memory on some of the events from it.

As for the Maya stuff from that run. It's actually not all that comparable to Seekers or any other version. She was just the spirit of the Mother Box, not the illusion of reality in that run and actually died towards the end. She also never appeared in any comic again. Not under DeMatteis or any other DC writer for that matter. That comic run was her first and last appearance in all of DC, as far as I'm aware.
 
VeryGoofyToddler2 said:
I was wondering if we can extend DeMatteis as not a single author but an amalgamation of authors with their Cosmology being based on Illusion(Mayavaic) and Reality(Oversoul/God) concepts. I've read a few and all their concepts up pretty well. We can call it Dream Cosmology.
Click to expand...
VeryGoofyToddler2 said:
The basic gist that all of Creation is just a projection of the true reality is shared across all the stories. That all levels of existence including Heaven and Hell are not real but just the human psyche choosing to create their own versions of afterlives. That Maya is the reality from which souls are attached to but is not truly representative of their actual infinite nature.

So, what I was thinking was merging all of DeMatteis's stories including his Vertigo work. Another story called Millennium Fever also goes over the nature of Reality and matches how DeMatteis tells his story.

Seekers into the Mystery is a telling tale about the relationship between human consciousness with reality and that of Maya and God. Mercy is a very telling tale of how some infinite being radiates love and comes in many forms in his Creation whether it chooses male or female projections. The Last One is a telling tale of an angel that is on the path of guiding others to the truth and eventually his fallen state is restored back to its formal glory after it physically leaves the mortal plane after telling us that God is the director and he's projecting his play(Creation) and that everything will be in unison again. Millennium Fever features Jerome learning about Maiya the nature of Reality and the power of the human psyche in making and shaping Creation. It has very similar storytelling and even art style as Seekers and Mercy. Brooklyn Dreams also is very good in telling the nature of God being the one to create the wheels of duality and existing above duality itself.

We don't need individual aspects of the storytelling but a rather composite view of how Creation functions. All these stories feature Maya as a composite term for Creation/Illsuion. God emanated all of Creation with these two characters being overarching characters that blend these stories very well and there isn't much of a difference in how Maya is described in all the stories. Millennium Fever treats Maya in a more sympathetic route while still remaining a weaver of dreams and illusions.
Click to expand...
I think that it seems reasonable to use all of DeMatteis' DC Comics stories as a basis for his cosmology, but not to include other authors that do not almost exactly adhere to his used concepts.

However, I would appreciate further clarifications. 🙏
 
The_2nd_Existential_Seed said:
Three things:
One, I agree with this.
Two, Would Darkseid get Tier 0 immortality since The Divine Presence is effectively protecting him until his fated time to meet his end?
Click to expand...
No, since a lot of what Creation is because an aspect of God created it all. The true form of the Presence more or less is just a state of being.
The_2nd_Existential_Seed said:
Three, wouldn't Spectre get Tier 0/High 1-A+ hax as the DeMatteis stories make it absurdly clear (as in they directly state it) that the Spectre is the focal point for The Divine Presence's powers and can actively use them ?
Click to expand...
Spectre isn't God due to individuality being there for the Spectre. Also, an aspect of God called the Voice commands the spirit which is still below the Sea of Brahma which is High 1-A+. So, no to both.
 
Antvasima said:
I think that it seems reasonable to use all of DeMatteis' DC Comics stories as a basis for his cosmology, but not to include other authors that do not almost exactly adhere to his used concepts.

However, I would appreciate further clarifications. 🙏
Click to expand...
In Amazo's JL Unlimited comic, the Creation classification used by DeMatteis is used, and the MWI Quantum Vortex he uses in the physical multiverse is also mentioned. It was DeMatteis who wrote this comic and many quotes from his canon are used. Is it possible to apply it to his canon if so?
 
Did you just create that page? And if so when will I see a tier 0 The Presence?

P.S

I'll be replying to the below soon, I've been busy.
VeryGoofyToddler2 said:
Since there's nothing interesting to talk about while we wait for the mods. I made it clear, that I'm only looking for very specific details that go with the Cosmology, not the unique storytelling.

Brooklyn Dreams being mentioned by me has nothing to do with the details of physiological storytelling. I just liked the description of God as it matches Doctor Fate in telling of a God that is beyond and the source is duality. It adds more layers and depth since the profile of God is quite empty when only relying on Doctor Fate, Spectre, or the Trinity of Sins.

Seekers into the Mystery is perfect for establishing the metaphor of Creation as Maya since she needs a profile. Any mention of illusion, unreality, Creation, play, trick, movie is an indirect reference to Maya, a composite term. The Primal Ocean is perfect in explaining an aspect of God, the Creator, that isn't established that great in Justice League Dark.

Mercy is a great telling of how radiants are made of the Love of the Divine. Though it’s important here is subpar compared to the others same with Last One but the metaphor of Creation being a play is important.

Millennium Fever is perfect for going over that human psyche projecting Creation as “baby gods.”
Click to expand...
 
vsbattles.fandom.com

The Presence

The Presence is the representation of the Judeo-Christian God in the DC Multiverse and the father of both Lucifer Morningstar and Michael Demiurgos. Although his power is virtually unparalleled, he rarely interferes in the affairs of mortals directly, instead acting through agents and aspects of...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

The Presence is now a 0 being.
 
VeryGoofyToddler2 said:
vsbattles.fandom.com

The Presence

The Presence is the representation of the Judeo-Christian God in the DC Multiverse and the father of both Lucifer Morningstar and Michael Demiurgos. Although his power is virtually unparalleled, he rarely interferes in the affairs of mortals directly, instead acting through agents and aspects of...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

The Presence is now a 0 being.
Click to expand...
I'm crying Todd, I'm crying!
 
VeryGoofyToddler2 said:
vsbattles.fandom.com

The Presence

The Presence is the representation of the Judeo-Christian God in the DC Multiverse and the father of both Lucifer Morningstar and Michael Demiurgos. Although his power is virtually unparalleled, he rarely interferes in the affairs of mortals directly, instead acting through agents and aspects of...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

The Presence is now a 0 being.
Click to expand...
We finally get presence tier 0 before the GTA 6, that's crazy🗣️🔥
 
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