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DC Heralds rescaling thread

If there's no large pushback against the ratings we could. But afaik we still have enough to sort some stuff out.

Or at least Firestorm wants to make a comment about it.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
If there's no large pushback against the ratings we could. But afaik we still have enough to sort some stuff out.

Or at least Firestorm wants to make a comment about it.
Click to expand...
So far all we had was derailing other things that were supposed to be brought up in the og thread, like whether or not some feats are fine
 
Qawsedf234 said:
If there's no large pushback against the ratings we could. But afaik we still have enough to sort some stuff out.

Or at least Firestorm wants to make a comment about it.
Click to expand...
Could you unlock pages for post crisis and post flashpoint Barry and Wally? There seems to be no contention for the Speedsters and I've already applied for the villain speedsters.
 
Firestorm808 said:

1​

Will eventually go over the entire sandbox.

It was not Driq who performed the alleged feat. It was Flodo Span.

Additionally, I argued in the previous feats thread that the feat was not really physical.


2​


According to the prior thread, you agreed with my sentiment that:

The scaling chain would be better described as:


3​

I have concerns regarding scaling Pre-Absorption Superman to Darkseid. Following the Action Comics Vol 1 #586 encounter, the writers have since depicted that Darkseid is actually stronger than the Pre-Absorption Era Superman.
  • Action Comics Vol 1 #586 | March 1987
    • According to Darkseid, Superman’s unlocked power is weaker than his.
    • Darkseid sends out omega beams with the intent to wipe Superman out in one blast. Superman guides the beams into Darkseid, resulting in a bright pink aura. Superman didn’t expect Darkseid to survive. Darkseid is still hurt by his full-power Omega Beams
    • Darkseid fires his Omega Beams with the intent to kill at Superman, resulting in a dimmer Red Aura. This does not kill Superman. Darkseid says his Omega Force is spent, not at full power. Instead, he alters his current Omega Beams to attack Superman’s molecules.
    • Superman resists and punches Darkseid a few times.
    • Darkseid says that Superman won a fair fight.
  • Action Comics Vol 1 #638 | February 1989 | The Power Within
    • Darkseid incapacitates Superman with a single, casual blast. One casual blast left Superman on the ground, too weak to even try stopping Darkseid from leaving.
    • Darkseid calls himself True Power in comparison to Superman.
  • Cosmic Odyssey Vol 1 #1 | December 1989
    • On New Genesis, Darkseid easily bats away Superman.
  • New Gods Vol 3 #15 | April 1990
    • It's retconned that Superman fought Desaad disguised as Darkseid back in Action Comics Vol 1 #586

4​


  • Superman Vol. 2 #32, June 1989
    • Mongul and Superman fight twice.
    • In round 1, Superman says that even at peak power, he's not sure he could defeat Mongul.
    • Superman wins round 2.
  • Hardcore Station Vol. 1 #5, November 1998
    • A recording of Hardcore's police band officer Dolly, says that Mongul and Darkseid are in the same League.
We're using a space cop statement to scale how strong Mongul was about 10 years prior?

5​

For Orion, you have the following justification for Low Multiverse level

Isn't this a 3-A to Low 2-C feat for his peak power?

On another note, Orion should have a Varies Rating.

6​


Sorry, but who is Titus and why is this scaled to Low Multiverse level in relation to Martian Manhunter?

7​

The justification for scaling Superman to Hank Hall Monarch seems lacking. Here's a summary of their interaction:
  • Monarch zaps Superman
  • Superman punches Monarch.
  • Monarch tanks Superman's heat vision.
  • Monarch incapacitates Superman, Guy Gardner, Martian Manhunter, Mon-El, Waverider, and more.
It very much seems that Hank Hall Monarch is much more powerful in comparison for any proper scaling.
Click to expand...
Driq and Flodo performed the galaxy feat together I'm fairly sure
 
Firestorm808 said:
3
I have concerns regarding scaling Pre-Absorption Superman to Darkseid. Following the Action Comics Vol 1 #586 encounter, the writers have since depicted that Darkseid is actually stronger than the Pre-Absorption Era Superman.
Click to expand...
I'm actually seconding Firestorms opinion here. There seems to be only one instance of Superman overpowering Darkseid pre-Absorption -- and even that was a weakened Darkseid.
(Though I honestly don't believe it was DeSaad; I don't think that's consistent and PIS at best.)
 
Didn't we already accept most of these changes? What is left to do here?
 
Apologies for a late reply, though my timing doesn't seem too bad, as the arguments seem to be compiled now.
Firestorm808 said:
It was not Driq who performed the alleged feat. It was Flodo Span.
Click to expand...
Well, let's take a look at that.
Like MadGod, Flodo Span went mad with his omniscience, but when Driq's body was scattered across the cosmos, Driq's power ring pulled the dead Green Lantern's form together and also constricted Flodo Span, restoring the Green Lantern's sanity. The Green Lantern had compressed it into a ball.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure where this reading comes from. What we see is that when Driq is outside of Flodo, a green construct forms, seemingly what the text on Driq's ring pulling a form together refers to, and this construct is present when the Galaxy is contracting, as well as contracting alongside. I'm not sure why restricting Flodo would restore his sanity if the cause is that he's merged with the whole sector, as he would still be merged with it, and take up that space until he has contracted. The more sensible reading is that Driq restricts and contracts Flodo Span, and with that, Flodo regains sanity.

Also, even if we say that all Driq did was restrain Flodo, that probably still results in 3-C results, no?
Firestorm808 said:
Additionally, I argued in the previous feats thread that the feat was not really physical.
Click to expand...
Despite this argument, the feat was still largely accepted. Any discussion on those feats should either be handled later or in private rather then derailing this thread.
Firestorm808 said:
The proposed scaling here relies less upon Krona getting power from the entities, but that Krona was already as powerful as the entities to begin with.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure why both can't be true at the same time, as in, Krona is both getting their power and scales to them beforehand, but true, it could be phrased better to note of both.
Firestorm808 said:
Atrocitus Tier 2 Peak (Via Butcher Encounter) < Krona (Feels pain from Atrocitus' Napalm breath and bite to his neck) < Peak Hal (Blew through Krona's chest)
Click to expand...
This is already accounted for in the current drafts:
defeated Krona[204], who had the power of the Emotional Entities[205], even when neither Atrocitus[206] nor the Guardians of the Universe could[207]
Click to expand...
Firestorm808 said:
I have concerns regarding scaling Pre-Absorption Superman to Darkseid. Following the Action Comics Vol 1 #586 encounter, the writers have since depicted that Darkseid is actually stronger than the Pre-Absorption Era Superman.
Click to expand...
Untrue.

A peak pre-Death Superman scaled to a peak Death of Superman Doomsday (Superman #75), and even before reaching new levels of power, he could take a punch from the earlier Doomsday, as well as a kick that Superman considered to be the strongest hit he'd felt (Superman #74). The idea of DoS Doomsday being superior to Darkseid is made even more consistent with the fact that a far earlier Doomsday in Doomsday Annual was implied to be pretty much equal to Darkseid.

Superman also withstands pain greater than what Darkseid could put him through in Action Comics #656. Superman also scales to the Hank Hall Monarch, who was compared to the Dreamslayer by Captain Atom (Justice League America #87), who Darkseid admits is a rival to him (Justice League America #88). Supes also recovered from an attack from Maxima (Superman: The Man of Tomorrow #7) sooner than Darkseid's equal, Orion did (Superman #65).
Firestorm808 said:
  • Action Comics Vol 1 #586 | March 1987
    • According to Darkseid, Superman’s unlocked power is weaker than his.
    • Darkseid sends out omega beams with the intent to wipe Superman out in one blast. Superman guides the beams into Darkseid, resulting in a bright pink aura. Superman didn’t expect Darkseid to survive. Darkseid is still hurt by his full-power Omega Beams
    • Darkseid fires his Omega Beams with the intent to kill at Superman, resulting in a dimmer Red Aura. This does not kill Superman. Darkseid says his Omega Force is spent, not at full power. Instead, he alters his current Omega Beams to attack Superman’s molecules.
    • Superman resists and punches Darkseid a few times.
    • Darkseid says that Superman won a fair fight.
Click to expand...
Darkseid's statement isn't all too relevant in my opinion. He's quite the arrogant character and considering the later events of the comic, I wouldn't value the statement much. Superman straight up beats Darkseid an admitted fair fight, as you note.
Firestorm808 said:
  • Action Comics Vol 1 #638 | February 1989 | The Power Within
    • Darkseid incapacitates Superman with a single, casual blast. One casual blast left Superman on the ground, too weak to even try stopping Darkseid from leaving.
    • Darkseid calls himself True Power in comparison to Superman.
Click to expand...
This is out of context. Leading up to this, Superman gets noticeably battle damaged, and then has to stop Darkseid's machine, which was explicitly a great cost to him.
Firestorm808 said:
  • Cosmic Odyssey Vol 1 #1 | December 1989
    • On New Genesis, Darkseid easily bats away Superman.
Click to expand...
And despite this, Superman is still ready and confident to continue.

Superman also does the exact same thing to Orion, Darkseid's equal, in issue #3, so by your own logic, Superman can "easily bat away" characters on Darkseid's level.
Firestorm808 said:
  • New Gods Vol 3 #15 | April 1990
    • It's retconned that Superman fought Desaad disguised as Darkseid back in Action Comics Vol 1 #586
Click to expand...
This is literally impossible. Darkseid banished Desaad to Skartaris during the Legends #4, with this directly leading in to the arc with Superman. DC seems to maintain it being Darkseid as well, including it in a Superman vs Darkseid compilation described by their website as battles with the Dark Lord of Apokolips. This scan, which isn't even explicit in what it's referring to, is very weak in comparison to this.
Firestorm808 said:

​

  • Superman Vol. 2 #32, June 1989
    • Mongul and Superman fight twice.
    • In round 1, Superman says that even at peak power, he's not sure he could defeat Mongul.
    • Superman wins round 2.
  • Hardcore Station Vol. 1 #5, November 1998
    • A recording of Hardcore's police band officer Dolly, says that Mongul and Darkseid are in the same League.
We're using a space cop statement to scale how strong Mongul was about 10 years prior?
Click to expand...
Starfire comes to the same conclusion Rann-Thanagar: Holy War #4, and it's not just one space cop, but a consensus between them.
Firestorm808 said:
For Orion, you have the following justification for Low Multiverse level

Isn't this a 3-A to Low 2-C feat for his peak power?
Click to expand...
That is part of his justification alongside his scaling to Darkseid and others. A 2-C character performing a 3-A or Low 2-C feat can be a supporting feat in their justification.
Firestorm808 said:
On another note, Orion should have a Varies Rating.
Click to expand...
Why so?
Firestorm808 said:
Sorry, but who is Titus and why is this scaled to Low Multiverse level in relation to Martian Manhunter?
Click to expand...
A character who shows up between JLA: Classified #50 and #54.
I'm not exactly sure where Martian Manhunter's scaling will end up, but considering some of his feats, I'd be surprised if he doesn't even reach 3-A or Low 2-C. Titus could also hurt Hal Jordan, so him scaling to upper tiers of Earth even during that timeframe is pretty fair.
Firestorm808 said:
The justification for scaling Superman to Hank Hall Monarch seems lacking. Here's a summary of their interaction:
  • Monarch zaps Superman
  • Superman punches Monarch.
  • Monarch tanks Superman's heat vision.
  • Monarch incapacitates Superman, Guy Gardner, Martian Manhunter, Mon-El, Waverider, and more.
It very much seems that Hank Hall Monarch is much more powerful in comparison for any proper scaling.
Click to expand...
Superman scaling to Hank Hall Monarch was already accepted on the prior thread, so I don't want to get too deep into this topic, but just to restate the reason he scales, it's because he took an attack from him, staggered him while pulling his punch, shattered his armor (Armageddon #2), and was stated to be capable of defeating him (Adventures of Superman Annual #3). I'm also unaware how you came to the conclusion that Superman was incapacitated, while we do see him get blasted back, he is not among the characters Monarch restrains, nor is he shown to be damaged from the blast.

-------------------

I also want to mention that Rebirth Superman being able to destroy the Phantom Zone may be considered 52 Universes into 2-C as well, considering the Sphere of Gods > Orrery scaling, though I'm not particularly sure how we scale the PZ in the general cosmology aside from it at least being an infinite sized separate Universe.

Also, question for Emirp, is the plan that once the discussion for the characters who currently have drafts is over, we can start covering characters like Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, etc?
 
Y’all, don’t put 52 Universes in the characters’ AP justification. You have to format it like this now:
vsbattles.fandom.com

Standard Format for Character Profiles

When there are multiple versions of a character that are distinct enough to be split into several profiles, whether it is due to the length and complexity of the page or versions from different mediums, then the multiple pages that are created as a result of this have to be linked by a tabber...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
 
PapiSavitar5025 said:
Done.
Darkseid's profile needs to be unlocked.
Click to expand...
I have handled it. Tell us here when you are done. 🙏

vsbattles.fandom.com

Darkseid (Pre-Flashpoint)

Darkseid is one of the most powerful New Gods and the tyrannical ruler of Apokolips, an archetypal world beyond the boundaries of time and space. His everlasting goal is the utter domination and enslavement of all life in creation, when all is ordered according to his will. Darkseid was formerly...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
 
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