DC Heralds rescaling thread

[Hypertornado099]

If the 52 universes scaling is because of Barbatos, why is Rebirth Superman the only one here that even mentions it? The scaling chain should be explained further for other characters as well, so that people won't have to click 7 different profiles to find out they scale to 52

 

[Firestorm808]

defeated Mongul,[9] someone on par with Darkseid,[10]

• Superman Vol. 2 #32, June 1989
  • Mongul and Superman fight twice.
  • In round 1, Superman says that even at peak power, he's not sure he could defeat Mongul.
  • Superman wins round 2.
• Hardcore Station Vol. 1 #5, November 1998
  • A recording of Hardcore's police band officer Dolly, says that Mongul and Darkseid are in the same League.

We're using a space cop statement to scale how strong Mongul was about 10 years prior?

See: https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-heralds-rescaling-thread.161156/post-6196767

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Firestorm, for convenience's sake, I'd prefer if you summarize all of your thoughts into one big post rather than doing these bit by bit. I think it'd be easier for us to read through your replies.

If the 52 universes scaling is because of Barbatos, why is Rebirth Superman the only one here that even mentions it? The scaling chain should be explained further for other characters as well, so that people won't have to click 7 different profiles to find out they scale to 52

Because the feat comes from him? What you're saying isn't a new thing, and a easy solution is just link the blog with all of the eats on the verse page, as well as just state how many universes these characters scale to, similar to what Dragonball Super does with its pages and what Qawsedf suggested, instead of making a giant scaling chain on each page, which could convolute things.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Why do da Post Crisis lads scale to Rebirth btw, isn't lad stronger than ever?

 

[Hypertornado099]

Because the feat comes from him? What you're saying isn't a new thing, and a easy solution is just link the blog with all of the eats on the verse page, as well as just state how many universes these characters scale to, similar to what Dragonball Super does with its pages and what Qawsedf suggested, instead of making a giant scaling chain on each page, which could convolute things.

Why would simplifying the scaling and making it easier to understand make it more convoluted? I can assure you no one would read the profiles and figure out why post crisis Superman, Larfleeze, Post Crisis Doomsday and the New Gods scale to Barbatos, nor would they know they would scale to 52 rather than 2 universes

 

[TimeTrapperFanBoy]

• New Gods Vol 3 #15 | April 1990
  • It's retconned that Superman fought Desaad disguised as Darkseid back in Action Comics Vol 1 #586

I kinda doubt this for 2 reasons.

1. Prior to Darkseid sending Superman to Apokolips via Omega Beams in Superman Vol 2 #3, we see in Legends #4, Darkseid sent DeSaad on a mission to Skartaris.
2. DeSaad doesn’t possess Omega Beams or at least he doesn’t possess any energy projection powers that resemble the Omega Beams.

 

[Firestorm808]

Firestorm, for convenience's sake, I'd prefer if you summarize all of your thoughts into one big post rather than doing these bit by bit. I think it'd be easier for us to read through your replies.

Apologies. I don't have much time to do a proper deep dive all at once. If anything, I'll combine everything to my initial post.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Apologies. I don't have much time to do a proper deep dive all at once. If anything, I'll combine everything to my initial post.

It's fine. We're in no hurry.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Why do da Post Crisis lads scale to Rebirth btw, isn't lad stronger than ever?

Kinda. They're stronger, but the gap isn't that massive tbh. It kinda goes like:

Supes scales to Barbatos, characters like the Flashes are comparable to characters around Superman's level, Anti-Monitor is established as somewhat superior to Barry. Plenty of PC guys scale to or downscale from the Anti-Monitor

 

[Antvasima]

Wait a minute. I do not think that we should scale Superman from Barbatos. Barbatos was extremely weakened by chains of Nth metal (which is like Kryptonite for him) when Superman hurt him, if I remember correctly.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Wait a minute. I do not think that we should scale Superman from Barbatos. Barbatos was extremely weakened by chains of Nth metal (which is like Kryptonite for him) when Superman hurt him, if I remember correctly.

I'm pretty sure it was bought in the feats discussion thread?
Explicitly as one of the justifications

 

[Antvasima]

I think that I and others stated that other scaling should be used previously as well, as that particular feat doesn't make any sense to use. I think that we will end up with the same statistics from using the many much more reliable feats anyway, so it shouldn't be a problem.

 

[PapiSavitar5025]

Wait a minute. I do not think that we should scale Superman from Barbatos. Barbatos was extremely weakened by chains of Nth metal (which is like Kryptonite for him) when Superman hurt him, if I remember correctly.

They're strong enough to hold him, for sure, but I never saw anything about the metal actively weakening him.
Do we have any sort of proof this is how they interact with Barbatos?

 

[Deagonx]

They're strong enough to hold him, for sure, but I never saw anything about the metal actively weakening him.
Do we have any sort of proof this is how they interact with Barbatos?

 

[Armorchompy]

That's in regards to getting past their invulnerability, not weakening them.

 

[PapiSavitar5025]

Thank you, Deagon.
So just touching the metal itself hurts them?
Green Arrow isn't saying that like "oh yeah, we can craft weapons out of these that CAN hurt them"

 

[Deagonx]

I don't recall anything more specific than that, but I agree that punching a Barbatos chained up in Nth Metal isn't a great indicator of scaling.

 

[PapiSavitar5025]

I don't recall anything more specific than that, but I agree that punching a Barbatos chained up in Nth Metal isn't a great indicator of scaling.

I agree. It should be used as a supporting feat more than anything.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that we should only use the other much safer feats instead. As far as I recall, Superman and the other superheroes explicitly couldn't harm Barbatos without using Nth metal previously.

 

[PapiSavitar5025]

I think that we should only use the other much safer feats instead. As far as I recall, Superman and the other superheroes explicitly couldn't harm Barbatos without using Nth metal previously.

Well, that wasn't because of an AP difference.
The negative 52 universe characters in general could not be harmed by those from the main universe.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Apologies. I don't have much time to do a proper deep dive all at once. If anything, I'll combine everything to my initial post.

I'm like, 90% sure that you or someone else actually collected all the Mod views on what is and isn't useable. All we would need to do is filter out the ones that don't have majority agreement.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Yeah, Nth metal doesn't actually weaken them. It just allows mainline universe people to bypass their invulnerability

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Wait a minute. I do not think that we should scale Superman from Barbatos. Barbatos was extremely weakened by chains of Nth metal (which is like Kryptonite for him) when Superman hurt him, if I remember correctly.

What the others said. nth metal isn't like kryptonite, and even if it did sap his strength, I don't see how it would vastly lower his durability.

 

[Antvasima]

But the entire point of Nth metal was that Superman and the others couldn't harm Barbatos without it, so it doesn't make any sense for Superman to suddenly be able to do so unless the Nth metal chains were greatly weakening Barbatos.

 

[Armorchompy]

But the entire point of Nth metal was that Superman and the others couldn't harm Barbatos without it, so it doesn't make any sense for Superman to suddenly be able to do so unless the Nth metal chains were greatly weakening Barbatos.

This isn't because of Barbatos' sheer power, he-and everyone else from the dark multiverse- are just inherently invulnerable to harm that doesn't come from that kind of metals. Something about vibrations. Superman wouldn't be able to harm even TBWL without it.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

invulnerable to harm that doesn't come from that kind of metals.

Ur link is broken

 

[Armorchompy]

Fixed i think

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

But the entire point of Nth metal was that Superman and the others couldn't harm Barbatos without it, so it doesn't make any sense for Superman to suddenly be able to do so unless the Nth metal chains were greatly weakening Barbatos.

basically Barbatos is normally invulnerable to mainline universe's attacks due to non-stat reasons.
Nth metal just levels the playing field

 

[Antvasima]

So, the Nth metal doesn't actually weaken Barbatos, it just allows similarly powerful characters to harm him? I suppose that seems reasonable in that case, but I still find it more reliable if we scale from other feats instead.

 

[Armorchompy]

It just takes away the invulnerability. In the same story Batman and TBWL fight and they're on even terms, but Batman can't do any permanent harm to him without the right tools.

 

[PapiSavitar5025]

So, the Nth metal doesn't actually weaken Barbatos, it just allows similarly powerful characters to harm him? I suppose that seems reasonable in that case, but I still find it more reliable if we scale from other feats instead.

Basically, yeah.
Think of it like this; the differing vibrations between the two Universes prevents a character like Superman from damaging the Batman Who Laughs through sure power, despite the massive AP difference.
However, give Superman a nth metal glove, and one punch sends BWL into next week.
Nth metal levels the playing field; it doesn't strengthen or weaken one side or the other. It just allows the main universe to harm the negative universe.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay then, but I doubt that this will be self-evident to our visitors, so it still seems better to focus mostly on scaling from other feats.

 

[KLOL506]

We could care less about what the visitors think, as long as we have the proper reasonings laid out in notes or whatever. Accuracy before anything else.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. I just meant that it is preferable if we can justify the 2-C statistic via other feats.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Btw isn't Barbatos' feat a chain reaction?

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Btw isn't Barbatos' feat a chain reaction?

Regardless of whether that's true or not, Barbatos still scales to the World Forger's first key.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Regardless of whether that's true or not, Barbatos still scales to the World Forger's first key.

Ye, but I don't think The World Forger/Anti-Monitor have 52 Universe scaling

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Ye, but I don't think The World Forger/Anti-Monitor have 52 Universe scaling

The Anti-Monitor scales to Darkseid.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

The Anti-Monitor scales to Darkseid.

The updated Darkseid Justifcation doesn't have anything that puts him at 52 Universes tho?

Attack Potency: Low Multiverse level (While significantly weakened, he defeated both Mordru[458] and Time Trapper (Controller)[458] and absorbed energy from all of the Sorcerer's World,[459] and was still weaker than normal. Highfather stated he was capable of destroying Takion[460] who also admitted Darkseid was more powerful than he was[461]. Has been show to be somewhat comparable to[462] Post-Crisis Superman, though he generally loses. Is as powerful as Infinite-Man[463], who's power could be used to destroy the Universe, including the timestream[464], and stalemated the Time Trapper[465], which is consistent with statements of the Time Trapper being comparable to Darkseid[466][467]. Significantly superior to average New Gods, who can create Universes[468].)

 

[PapiSavitar5025]

The updated Darkseid Justifcation doesn't have anything that puts him at 52 Universes tho?

He was able to defeat Mordru and the Time Trapper -- both of him are comparable to Superman, who is comparable to Earth-2 Superman, who survived the Anti Monitor's attempt to kill him.