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DC Heralds rescaling thread

The only question I have is if we should also include a statistics key for the early Byrne-version Post-Crisis Superman who could be knocked out by nuclear weapons, in addition to his currently intended key for his statistics during the end of the Post-Crisis era?
 
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Hypertornado099 said:
This shouldn't be used as a feat for Kyle Rayner because its not like he empowers himself with all the energy in this world. Also is this thread only to discuss scaling? I think the Kyle Rayner Zero Hour feat isn't a valid tier 2 feat
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Yes, this thread is only to discuss scaling. All Tier 2 feat validation discussions have been concluded prior. If you think this feat is wrong, make another CRT for it.
 
Hypertornado099 said:
This shouldn't be used as a feat for Kyle Rayner because its not like he empowers himself with all the energy in this world. Also is this thread only to discuss scaling? I think the Kyle Rayner Zero Hour feat isn't a valid tier 2 feat
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As mentioned by others, the focus of this thread is solely on scaling, but if you'd like to discuss this in private, I'd be (mostly) available.
Antvasima said:
The only question I have is if we should also include a statistics key for the early Byrne-version Post-Crisis Superman who could be knocked out by nuclear weapons, in addition to his currently intended key for his statistics during the end of the Post-Crisis era?
Click to expand...
There already is a key for early Post-Crisis Superman, albeit not strictly Byrne-era, but rather up to Death of Superman. You can view the suggested tiering here. To mark the lower-end portrayal of him during this era, his usual level is listed as 5-C, but due to consistent higher-end performances, his peak reaches 2-C.
As for the concern of that Superman being knocked out by nuclear weapons, that was addressed in the original thread, but to make it easier I'll post that section here:
Another belief is that the 80s cast scaled even lower, citing many feats seemingly limiting the Pre-Death Superman to City level to Island level. While higher statistics could already fit in considering the varies tiering he has, there's little reason to limit him in the first place. Many of the seemingly City level anti-feats include nuclear blasts, which release harmful radiation, which we've seen can nerf Superman due to his solar energy absorption, as seen in Superman #29. We also saw in Superman/Wonder Woman #6-#7 that a nuclear blasts radiation is harmful enough to completely change Superman's appearance, and weakened him to the point where sunlight burned him.

While this is New 52 Superman, Post Crisis Superman has a very similar physiology, and actually absorbs more radiation, as is stated in Superman Annual #1, so if anything, the effects of nuclear radiation would be even more harmful to him. The feat for Island level from Action Comics #652 really has no reason to be a limit, as it's not Superman intentionally trying to cause damage, nor is he even in a fight, he's just enraged from learning what's been controlling him.
With this in mind, a tier 7 rating wouldn't seem to hold up, with the nuclear radiation being something that could be added to the weakness section, though his resistance to it seems to massively build up over the Post-Crisis era.
 
Antvasima said:
Okay. I think that nuclear radiation seems a bit like grasping at straws though. To list the pre-DOS era Superman as 2-C or to have a minimum of 5-C seems misleading of us to our visitors.
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Well, that was agreed upon in the last thread with the AP ratings.
 
Okay. I think that I only agreed with the ratings for Superman during the end of the post-Crisis era though. Otherwise I misunderstood something.
 
Byrne-era Superman was visibly knocked out by the physical energy released by a nuclear explosion, and did not have any radiation burns or similar, nor was nuclear radiation stated to be a specific weakness of his in conjunction, so it seems like a massive rationalisation to try to explain away that he was initially far weaker than he later became, and 2-C is downright absurd for this specific time period, given his general power level portrayals back then.
 
Antvasima said:
Byrne-era Superman was visibly knocked out by the physical energy released by a nuclear explosion, and did not have any radiation burns or similar, nor was nuclear radiation stated to be a specific weakness of his in conjunction
Click to expand...
The justification given for Superman is similar to the justifications given for Marvel: They hold back and for Superman his limitations are entirely based on his mental condition.

Superman had no idea what his limits were and had to train to get over them, as he would get stronger as the situation demanded it as evidence by his statement saying he only ever went all out when he died against Doomsday.

If you want to say it's inconsistent, sure it probably is, but all the rating have been accepted and we have to rationalize them. The current rational works for Superman since it's determinant on his mental state and willingness to test his limitations, which he doesn't like to do in-character most of the time.
 
I think it's quite silly to have such low ends for Superman when he was always portrayed as one of the strongest superheroes- either everyone from that era was around 7-B, which is not something that we have the research to claim, or the nuke stuff is just an outlier
 
Qawsedf234 said:
The justification given for Superman is similar to the justifications given for Marvel: They hold back and for Superman his limitations are entirely based on his mental condition.

Superman had no idea what his limits were and had to train to get over them, as he would get stronger as the situation demanded it as evidence by his statement saying he only ever went all out when he died against Doomsday.

If you want to say it's inconsistent, sure it probably is, but all the rating have been accepted and we have to rationalize them. The current rational works for Superman since it's determinant on his mental state and willingness to test his limitations, which he doesn't like to do in-character most of the time.
Click to expand...
Well, at the very least I think that we should use 7-B or so as a lower border for the early post-Crisis Superman, and can somebody explain why his upper border was placed as 2-C please?
 
How about we don't derail? The validity of the ratings was already discussed, all this thread is for is who scales to who.
If someone wants to change the ratings, they should make another CRT
 
KLOL506 said:
Tier 7 scaling isn't "validity of feats and anti-feats". Don't white knight for me.
Click to expand...
Superman not being Tier 7 because of the nuclear thing was already accepted in the previous thread, so yes it is. By this same token I should be allowed to discuss the Kyle Rayner big bang feat because its relevant to scaling
 
I think 48 hours has passed. I'll update the speedsters first since they're the least controversial. I'll leave the Kryptonians and Lanterns alone for now as they're still being discussed.

Hypertornado099 said:
Superman not being Tier 7 because of the nuclear thing was already accepted in the previous thread, so yes it is. By this same token I should be allowed to discuss the Kyle Rayner big bang feat because its relevant to scaling
Click to expand...
You discussing the Kyle Rayner big bang feat would be discussing the validity of the feat, not who scales to it or what.
 
Emirp sumitpo said:
You discussing the Kyle Rayner big bang feat would be discussing the validity of the feat, not who scales to it or what.
Click to expand...
Discussing the Superman tier 7 thing would also be discussing the validity of it, not only that, it has already been accepted as not being an anti feat in the previous thread

If I am allowed to speak about it here, then I'll say that the radiation is not what weakened him the most here. Post-Crisis Superman is not weak to radiation. In Supergirl and the Legion of Super-Heroes #23, we learn that kryptonians like Supergirl can't be weakened to the point where needles can affect her by any form of radiation outside of kryptonite, which means post-crisis Superman should be resistant to nuclear radiation, not weak to it. This next scan of N52 Superman being burnt by a nuclear explosion is for a severely injured Superman, which means it does not prove that Superman gets nerfed by it. We don't even see visible burn marks of the same degree in the scan where Superman took the 40 megaton bomb anyway

If higher end feats are more consistent for that era then we can discard this as an anti feat, but not use "he is weakened by radiation" as a reason
 
In all fairness I think Tornado's point is that the validity of the nuke stuff was brought up on the upgrade thread and not refuted, so it wouldn't make sense to discuss the nuke level anti-feats here, but considering that can of worms was already opened, I want to give one last comment on it to ease concerns.
Just for context, let's keep in mind a couple of things.
  • While Kryptonite radiation is the main weakness of Superman's, there have been other radiation weaknesses, like Red Solar Radiation or Anti-Sunlight.
  • A specific nuclear radiation weakness was shown in the out-of-continuity Dark Knight Returns #4. However, while it's certainly not canon, it did have a massive impact on the comic industry, and in fact, Byrne helped work with Miller for writing Superman in TDKR (Amazing Heroes #96). To be entirely clear, this comic is not at all canon, but helps us understand an out of Universe perspective for why Superman would be weak to nukes in this era.
  • In the Byrne-written Superman #8, we get this scene. It shows that Superman's absorption of radiation is passive/not something he can turn off (which makes sense considering why Kryptonite is such a thorn in his side), and when storing too much of it, he feels immense pain. If an excess of solar radiation, something that charges Superman, causes pain, it should be understandable why something like Nuclear Radiation, which likely weakens him, would work so well.
  • Another example of radiation that weakens Superman is JLA #41, where we see the absorption of Anti-Sunlight making Superman's skin crack, though by the end, he's fine. I think this works well to address the concern of the lack of burn marks, as it seems those sorts of radiation-caused marks are only temporary, even when they're affecting him.
  • Batman: The Brave & The Bold #11 gives us this scene too, where a cosmic radiation storm that affects things down to the atomic level causes Superman pain, but doesn't change his appearance.
  • At this point, I'd like to restate the previous reasoning, as, when viewed under the lens of the prior points, it further helps to build a consistency. The radiation that weakened him in Superman #28 mostly affected him internally as well, only later changing his hair.
  • While the instance in Superman/Wonder Woman #6-#7 does completely change Superman's appearance, and the Post-Crisis Supes absorbs more radiation, (Superman Annual #1), I do think it's fine to say it just affects him more-so internally, as is consistent with his portrayal.
Considering this, I think it's a more than fair way to reconcile the supposed contradictions.
 
Deagonx said:
Question. How is the herald scaling affected by the outcome of this thread? It would seem all of the 2-C characters are going to be upgraded instead to 2-A.
Click to expand...
Idk tbh. Apparently if this goes through, heralds become 2-A because individual universes become 2-A in DC, something I'm not a fan of but I'm not knowledgeable enough to argue against it. I don't have an opinion about the upgrade itself.

IdiosyncraticLawyer said:
How is this? Which feats prove it?
Click to expand...
Scaling to Barbatos.
 

1​

Will eventually go over the entire sandbox.
up to Galaxy level (One of[186] if not the best Green Lantern[187], going from being the greatest to most dangerous Green Lantern[188] which should make him superior to the likes of Driq, who's encompassed and destroyed an evil galaxy[189], which would be this powerful, and standard Green Lanterns, each of which could, together contain an explosion which would destroy the galaxy[190])
Click to expand...
It was not Driq who performed the alleged feat. It was Flodo Span.

Additionally, I argued in the previous feats thread that the feat was not really physical.

Regarding Flodo Span, I'm unsure if physical quantities apply.

In the original encounter, Thirty-six Guardians surrounded the MadGod, forming a net with their green light. Time after time they had almost completed their task when MadGod spurted it out past them. In time, though, they managed to create a matrix and calm the sentient sector with their green light, causing it to cohere. It became rational once more and understood the Guardians were its masters. For a creature of pure mind, that understanding became all the Guardians needed to do to imprison the sector for the remainder of time.

Green Lantern Flodo Span is an abstract life form and did not have a physical body as his fellow Green Lanterns did. Seizing on the same plan the Guardians used, Flodo increased his size to grow large enough to surround MadGod. Like MadGod, Flodo Span went mad with his omniscience, but when Driq's body was scattered across the cosmos, Driq's power ring pulled the dead Green Lantern's form together and also constricted Flodo Span, restoring the Green Lantern's sanity. The Green Lantern had compressed it into a ball.

When looking at the panels before and after compression, the space background doesn't seem to change as if a galaxy's worth of celestial bodies around them were all of a sudden compressed into a ball.

MadGod when contained by the guardians was just an abstract entity and didn't have the mass of a galaxy. After all, when MadGod escaped captivity, it's not like he decompressed an entire galaxy's worth of mass back into stars and planets before he faced Flodo. The pure mind went out and possessed another galaxy. Flodo used a similar method and contained the pure mind.
Click to expand...

2​

defeated Krona[204], who had the power of the Emotional Entities[205],
Click to expand...
According to the prior thread, you agreed with my sentiment that:
The proposed scaling here relies less upon Krona getting power from the entities, but that Krona was already as powerful as the entities to begin with.
Click to expand...
The scaling chain would be better described as:
Atrocitus Tier 2 Peak (Via Butcher Encounter) < Krona (Feels pain from Atrocitus' Napalm breath and bite to his neck) < Peak Hal (Blew through Krona's chest)
Click to expand...

3​

I have concerns regarding scaling Pre-Absorption Superman to Darkseid. Following the Action Comics Vol 1 #586 encounter, the writers have since depicted that Darkseid is actually stronger than the Pre-Absorption Era Superman.
  • Action Comics Vol 1 #586 | March 1987
    • According to Darkseid, Superman’s unlocked power is weaker than his.
    • Darkseid sends out omega beams with the intent to wipe Superman out in one blast. Superman guides the beams into Darkseid, resulting in a bright pink aura. Superman didn’t expect Darkseid to survive. Darkseid is still hurt by his full-power Omega Beams
    • Darkseid fires his Omega Beams with the intent to kill at Superman, resulting in a dimmer Red Aura. This does not kill Superman. Darkseid says his Omega Force is spent, not at full power. Instead, he alters his current Omega Beams to attack Superman’s molecules.
    • Superman resists and punches Darkseid a few times.
    • Darkseid says that Superman won a fair fight.
  • Action Comics Vol 1 #638 | February 1989 | The Power Within
    • Darkseid incapacitates Superman with a single, casual blast. One casual blast left Superman on the ground, too weak to even try stopping Darkseid from leaving.
    • Darkseid calls himself True Power in comparison to Superman.
  • Cosmic Odyssey Vol 1 #1 | December 1989
    • On New Genesis, Darkseid easily bats away Superman.
  • New Gods Vol 3 #15 | April 1990
    • It's retconned that Superman fought Desaad disguised as Darkseid back in Action Comics Vol 1 #586

4​

defeated Mongul,[9] someone on par with Darkseid,[10]
Click to expand...
  • Superman Vol. 2 #32, June 1989
    • Mongul and Superman fight twice.
    • In round 1, Superman says that even at peak power, he's not sure he could defeat Mongul.
    • Superman wins round 2.
  • Hardcore Station Vol. 1 #5, November 1998
    • A recording of Hardcore's police band officer Dolly, says that Mongul and Darkseid are in the same League.
We're using a space cop statement to scale how strong Mongul was about 10 years prior?

5​

For Orion, you have the following justification for Low Multiverse level
(Considered capable of stopping[435] a Universe destroying force[436], which he succeeded in doing[436], albeit off-screen.
Click to expand...
Isn't this a 3-A to Low 2-C feat for his peak power?

On another note, Orion should have a Varies Rating.

6​

could harm Titus,[16][17] even when Martian Manhunter couldn't[18]
Click to expand...
Sorry, but who is Titus and why is this scaled to Low Multiverse level in relation to Martian Manhunter?

7​

The justification for scaling Superman to Hank Hall Monarch seems lacking. Here's a summary of their interaction:
  • Monarch zaps Superman
  • Superman punches Monarch.
  • Monarch tanks Superman's heat vision.
  • Monarch incapacitates Superman, Guy Gardner, Martian Manhunter, Mon-El, Waverider, and more.
It very much seems that Hank Hall Monarch is much more powerful in comparison for any proper scaling.
 
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defeated Krona[204], who had the power of the Emotional Entities[205],
According to the prior thread, you agreed with my sentiment that:
The proposed scaling here relies less upon Krona getting power from the entities, but that Krona was already as powerful as the entities to begin with.
The scaling chain would be better described as:
Atrocitus Tier 2 Peak (Via Butcher Encounter) < Krona (Feels pain from Atrocitus' Napalm breath and bite to his neck) < Peak Hal (Blew through Krona's chest)
Click to expand...
See: https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-heralds-rescaling-thread.161156/post-6196767
 
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I do want to question Superboy Prime's galaxy rating.
I know that he varies, and all of that, but in the 'defeated Krypto' example that was given, immediately after he gets jumped by a very angry trio of Superman, Supergirl, and Powergirl.
I feel like he should just be straight-up 2-C.
 
I feel like if you want examples of BOTH Superboys "varies" rating, look no further than their three fights with each other

In Teen Titans #32/Infinite Crisis #4, Conner (suffering from emotional issues) fights Prime and gets utterly dunked on and beaten nearly to death.

Then, in Infinite Crisis #6, Conner (over his emotional issues) fights Prime vastly better, able to hurt him and take his attacks. He does end up losing, but that's more because he slammed them both into the Multiverse Tuning Tower than Prime simply murdering him. Prime is still somewhat stronger, since he catches Conner's hand and hurts/crushes it, but it's NOWHERE near as one-sided as Round 1.

Then in Round 3 Final Crisis Legion of 3 Worlds 4 and 5, a freshly resurrected Conner fights Prime (suffering from Flash Phobia and implied fear of Conner, as he has a breakdown simply hearing Conner's voice) and Conner does the best against Prime EVER. He takes the fight directly to him, draws blood from him, burns his chest with heat vision, and does better than literally any member of the Legion who fought Prime in those same issues, save for Element Lad using Kryptonite.

Those three fights show how both vary just in respect with EACH OTHER, when you take their mental states into account.

Round 1: Depressed Conner vs a motivated Prime.

Round 2: Motivated Prime vs Motivated Conner

Round 3: Scared Prime vs Motivated Conner.
 
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I have concerns regarding scaling Pre-Absorption Superman to Darkseid. Following the Action Comics Vol 1 #586 encounter, the writers have since depicted that Darkseid is actually stronger than the Pre-Absorption Era Superman.
  • Action Comics Vol 1 #586 | March 1987
    • According to Darkseid, Superman’s unlocked power is weaker than his.
    • Darkseid sends out omega beams with the intent to wipe Superman out in one blast. Superman guides the beams into Darkseid, resulting in a bright pink aura. Superman didn’t expect Darkseid to survive. Darkseid is still hurt by his full-power Omega Beams
    • Darkseid fires his Omega Beams with the intent to kill at Superman, resulting in a dimmer Red Aura. This does not kill Superman. Darkseid says his Omega Force is spent, not at full power. Instead, he alters his current Omega Beams to attack Superman’s molecules.
    • Superman resists and punches Darkseid a few times.
    • Darkseid says that Superman won a fair fight.
  • Action Comics Vol 1 #638 | February 1989 | The Power Within
    • Darkseid incapacitates Superman with a single, casual blast. One casual blast left Superman on the ground, too weak to even try stopping Darkseid from leaving.
    • Darkseid calls himself True Power in comparison to Superman.
  • Cosmic Odyssey Vol 1 #1 | December 1989
    • On New Genesis, Darkseid easily bats away Superman.
  • New Gods Vol 3 #15 | April 1990
    • It's retconned that Superman fought Desaad disguised as Darkseid back in Action Comics Vol 1 #586
Click to expand...
See: https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-heralds-rescaling-thread.161156/post-6196767
 
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