• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Dc DeMateis cosmology and yet PART 2

Status
Not open for further replies.
So literally the responses from Minos, Brahmatman and Goofy seem to make sense. from what I can conclude is that more you ascended to a higher dream layers, the more real the dream becomes. and also the layer above it will also treat the layer below it as a bubble.
 
Last edited:
@Robo432343 @VeryGoofyToddler @Bastolan27 @Brahmatman @Minos_the_Judge @Tiktime @PrinceStories Complaining about the wiki's standards will get you nowhere. If you actually want this upgrade to succeed, try putting in as much effort as Ultima did to upgrade Marvel and do enough research to craft a detailed, airtight argument that cleanly cites every relevant part of the story and how they precisely fit the wiki's standards. These kinds of low-effort CRTs with a bunch of scans thrown in aren't going to bring any change.
I don't see where I was complaining about our system tiering. I was in the mindset that Profectus had the right interpretation albeit all the arguments against his claims including mine. I specifically answered his claim and only slightly questioned the staff voting choice to see if they read the argument and not just the summary.

The others responded with their points about the flaws of the tiering in conjunction with the unfairness of the voting due to the preferred notion of what Matteis Cosmology entailed(keeping it the same). “Rather than” is very much just an empty statement, if said “complaint” is unjust and I suppose is meant to be a random heads-up.

So your claim on questioning the wiki system seems to the notion, that you believe in Profetus's point which is being argued against. So no one is randomly just taking backshot at the Wiki and certainly not I. I'm also going to mention this, the whole OP is well justified in the information given, simply believing Profectus’s point which is being dismantled doesn't make the OP wrong. You're indirectly calling the people you see to “complain” as lazy and bratty if they weren't to do what Ultima did as if we reached the need for that stage just yet.

With all due respect please actually read what was being said. Pinpointing out simple and common flaws not with the jist of the argument isn't wrong. Ultimate went above and beyond doesn't make what the OP said less credible. If you believe we're just ranting, derailing, and shotcalling that's specifically on you to view it as that. What you're telling us is just so “random” for a lack of better words especially if that's what you think is just happening with this ongoing thread.
 
Last edited:
@Robo432343 @VeryGoofyToddler @Bastolan27 @Brahmatman @Minos_the_Judge @Tiktime @PrinceStories Complaining about the wiki's standards will get you nowhere. If you actually want this upgrade to succeed, try putting in as much effort as Ultima did to upgrade Marvel and do enough research to craft a detailed, airtight argument that cleanly cites every relevant part of the story and how they precisely fit the wiki's standards. These kinds of low-effort CRTs with a bunch of scans thrown in aren't going to bring any change.
I have absolutely no complaints about the standards on this wiki
 
@Robo432343 @VeryGoofyToddler @Bastolan27 @Brahmatman @Minos_the_Judge @Tiktime @PrinceStories Complaining about the wiki's standards will get you nowhere. If you actually want this upgrade to succeed, try putting in as much effort as Ultima did to upgrade Marvel and do enough research to craft a detailed, airtight argument that cleanly cites every relevant part of the story and how they precisely fit the wiki's standards. These kinds of low-effort CRTs with a bunch of scans thrown in aren't going to bring any change.
It seems you already wrote this.

All this literally fits the wiki standards, I don’t understand how anyone can ignore this. More direct evidence would only be if the comic book said “Just so you understand, Superman, I recently sat on one site, VSB, and in general, according to their system, I would probably be 1-B, Idk lol.”

Stop talking about “wiki standards,” which is exactly what we follow.
 
my guy are you good??? ultima was literally upgrading the entirety of MARVEL
the OP is trying to upgrade a single cosmology
you expect this to be fking 50000 words or something?
Update the entire Dc universe when its cosmology is split
 
It seems you already wrote this.

All this literally fits the wiki standards, I don’t understand how anyone can ignore this. More direct evidence would only be if the comic book said “Just so you understand, Superman, I recently sat on one site, VSB, and in general, according to their system, I would probably be 1-B, Idk lol.”

Stop talking about “wiki standards,” which is exactly what we follow.
No, he seriously just believes we're complaining just to complain. That any of our statements being too short or lazy is unjustifiable for what we're trying to say simply because he disagrees or thinks what we said wasn't enough as if one post disregards the entire debunking of Profectus point one by one.

I don't remember half the people complaining about the Wiki rather than pinpointing out the flaws with Profectus arguments.
 
I'm not accusing, I'm trying to advise you all on how to get your upgrades accepted.
 
@Robo432343 @VeryGoofyToddler @Bastolan27 @Brahmatman @Minos_the_Judge @Tiktime @PrinceStories Complaining about the wiki's standards will get you nowhere. If you actually want this upgrade to succeed, try putting in as much effort as Ultima did to upgrade Marvel and do enough research to craft a detailed, airtight argument that cleanly cites every relevant part of the story and how they precisely fit the wiki's standards. These kinds of low-effort CRTs with a bunch of scans thrown in aren't going to bring any change.
My only complaint thus far is that some of the staff vote without explaining their reasoning. When counterarguments are provided, they are ignored, even statements from the author, in a way that seems biased. I have no problem with the Wiki standards, and I agree that the CRT could have been better made. However, in the short time I've been on this wiki, I've come to understand that when someone votes for something, they should make it clear why they do and refute the counterarguments thrown against them.

What's your debunk for Heaven? His arguments don't work. FRA. What are your thoughts on this?
What would be your debunk to Heaven? Could you also give your opinion on what other users have pointed out after Profectus posted his argument
 
@Robo432343 @VeryGoofyToddler @Bastolan27 @Brahmatman @Minos_the_Judge @Tiktime @PrinceStories Complaining about the wiki's standards will get you nowhere. If you actually want this upgrade to succeed, try putting in as much effort as Ultima did to upgrade Marvel and do enough research to craft a detailed, airtight argument that cleanly cites every relevant part of the story and how they precisely fit the wiki's standards. These kinds of low-effort CRTs with a bunch of scans thrown in aren't going to bring any change.
Only one author is used, not +100500
 
I'm not accusing, I'm trying to advise you all on how to get your upgrades accepted.
Your statement is very direct on who you tag. By adding me or by a factor, anyone who wasn't doing what you claim. You very much are, there is no other way of explaining why you tag all of us in the same manner for the same reason.

That's why I advise you to clearly articulate what you say or it can be taken the wrong way if you don't explain yourself better.
 
It's like talking into a dead phone.

It doesn’t matter what arguments we have, just one comment against it is enough and not a single person from the staff will even continue reading, because it is much easier to say “I disagree, FRA” than to try to understand the situation and understand that everything is much more detailed than it seems at first glance.
 
We need to organize ourselves in a better way and provide all of our arguments in the same post in a new CRT.
What would that achieve? This is the 3rd time you're recreating the same CRT to "better organize yourselves" (which actually means get rid of staff disagrees). This is a sunk cost. How many chances do you need exactly to promote a repeated topic without providing genuinely new reasoning?
 
What would that achieve? This is the 3rd time you're recreating the same CRT to "better organize yourselves" (which actually means get rid of staff disagrees). This is a sunk cost. How many chances do you need exactly to promote a repeated topic without providing genuinely new reasoning?
When will you be able to read scan texts correctly?
 
What would that achieve? This is the 3rd time you're recreating the same CRT to "better organize yourselves" (which actually means get rid of staff disagrees). This is a sunk cost. How many chances do you need exactly to promote a repeated topic without providing genuinely new reasoning?
Don't come with that attitude when you ignored evidence (like a statement from the author) and dismissed all counters to your argument.
 
Don't make remarks like this at other users.
This should not be regarded as an insult. This is only a fair remark, because indeed, what he described did not correspond to the scans.
You're right this is just a dead point. I'll start the CRT. I rather debunk every point of Profectus but I guess this way would be better.

vaFf3hQ9ybk.jpg
 
Although yes, that’s also true.

Sorry, Profectus.
I guess I accept your apology? Just understand that this is a general CRT, and I was invited to share thoughts on it. It's not like I was condescending or patronizing, or even stonewalling (I conceded on like 3 different points), I was simply expressing disagreement. I seriously hope no one here is under the impression that CRT's should not expect scrutiny. This is an indexing site that strives for accuracy, and the whole "I pray no one provides any sort of contention" mindset is very unethical. I was honestly on the verge of posting a very long rant with harsh language and insulting language against everyone here, but if everyone's done attacking opponents for the mere act of expressing their thoughts, I'd like for this CRT to proceed rationally.
 
You believing a harsh remark is true is not a justification for rudeness. Profectus does not deserve to be dogpiled by several people for the crime of disagreeing with your CRT.
I'm sorry but you're exaggerating this a little too much. Disagreeing with a point is common, being dogpiled as you remark is just because of bigger consensus.

I've followed this thread and no one was being “harsh.” At best just being a little annoyed with what Profectus has said.
 
I've followed this thread and no one was being “harsh.”
I don't think it's prudent to argue over whether the word "harsh" applies. It crossed a threshold of being aggressive in a manner that wasn't necessary or productive. Profectus has been rather polite the entire time, and I expect the same from his opponents.
 
The higher-dimensional aliens, at least 12th dimensional, perhaps even beyond based on them saying that dimension is too limited to contain them I think is fair. They should be taken as 1-B.

What's the rundown on the infinite layers of dreams though? Because I can definitely see the dream within a dream with Superman's dreams (which are actual universes) caused by Neron being within the dream of creation itself, so that's at least two layers of dream but I'm not sure where infinite layers comes from.
 
I mostly agree with ProfectusInfinity, minus some parts where I would need to make a lot of readings to hold a better opinion.
The existence of the term "Dimension" was confirmed near the end of this comic, effectively confirming the existence of theories of these dimensions in the universe. You are constantly trying to operate on the random statements of a madman, forgetting that the confirmation of his words actually happened in the chronological order of things. You literally contradict your own words, because the “Aliens” themselves confirmed that the concept of dimensions is too limited for them, of course, within the context of the contexts of higher beings in the deeper layers of reality. The authors can do many things that are very insignificant in their cosmological structures and do not play a significant role, because they are not their tasteful narrative and motives built by the cornerstone of the idea of the comic (In DeMatteis, most of the comics are tied to the idea of dreams, and, or almost, do not use as such scientific interpretations of spatial dimensions from physics, but this is not at all cancels their presence in the work). I may surprise you, but the average reader is not interested in what higher dimensions and qualitative superiorities there are, he doesn’t even think about it, or what level of strength a given character has? So the appeal is a lack of attention reader to this thing, nothing more than a speculative subjective opinion. Dimensions and cannot be represented in history, because the aliens are simply superior to these things, or is it so difficult to understand? They talk about it themselves.
The existence of the term "Dimension" being confirmed is a pretty meaningless contribution to the story, it doesn't mean that the madman was right.
And of course, you again ignored the indication from the second volume of Doctor Fate that Above and Below the higher planes in Heaven makes so little sense? We know very well from evidence that Heaven is the final stage before God, after dreams, an even deeper thing than sleep. It is obvious that Heaven is almost the final exaltation in DeMatteis's hierarchical cosmological structure, where the growth of one's own existence is so over that in Heaven this concept simply does not exist. This does not apply to Heaven in relation to each other, but puts them on a level above dreams, seeing other universes as a dream, a universe projected by a hologram from one's own mind.




Again, we are transported again to the indication that the Higher Planes have no meaning in Heaven, so yes, this is indeed a transcendental thing in relation to the hierarchy of dreams between living beings, each of which only creates the illusion of the universe for the other
ProfectusInfinity's take on the scans stands correct on its own.
You not only distorted, but also misinterpreted the text provided, but first things first



You mistook the neighboring universes of Green Lanterns, existing within one layer, for the dreams of absolutely all creatures. You either didn't read it correctly or didn't understand.

And so my wiilworld took its place beside thousands of other willworld created by the Green lanterns that had been tested before me.

And from this text it turns out that within the framework of one world of Hal Jordan, neighboring universes of other green lanterns float. Is it written somewhere that we are talking about all dreams? Apparently not. Or did all living beings (child, artist, etc.) become Green Lanterns? Also no. Then why did you blatantly lie and distort the submitted text, which is completely unrelated to what is presented in the comic?
Several of DeMatteis' comics make it clear that universes are nothing more than holograms of the mind. So if she is a hologram, and ordinary beings like Superman cannot understand the higher abstract beings from the world of the individual and collective unconscious, then why does it appear from your words that they exist on the same level of existence? Is Demattheis contradicting himself? You made a good mistake in your own reasoning and evidence

Yes, you divided cosmology into different authors, and use the cosmological device of another author, very good. The only problem is that several times it is indicated that the universe is just a hologram, an illusion or a dream of someone from above. What have we learned from the Green Lantern comic? That universes are created by the same people with their imagination, which can only be the dream of someone else’s dream.



We return again to the topic of why the universe is only a hologram, and creatures from this universe cannot comprehend creatures from a higher world, and moreover, these creatures (aliens) are more real than the universe of the character from where he came (Superman). A very good archetype and existence on one plane of existence, which for some reason does not work.



We were directly shown that Hal's universe is only a dream of a boy made of inflatable bubbles, and the boy is only a dream artist who perceives a lower dream in a ball. What is implied is that each dreams is only a dream of the other, and not that the lower dreams sees the higher one (this was not even shown, but quite the opposite).
This is the part where I'm unsure.
 
This is the part where I'm unsure.
Let me explain why I don't think the argument for the collective unconscious having a hierarchy holds up.

As we should all know, the word parallel entails something being coplanar, or existing on a single plane. That phrase is literally an antonym for and the greatest contradiction to higher dimensionality. It's no different from the text outright telling you "this isn't higher dimensional." I've seen 2 counter arguments, none of which I feel are genuine.

1. "It's obvious that the dreams which are depicted as parallel worlds belong to one layer."

This argument falls into headcanon territory. It's entirely based off how those parallel worlds in the image were called "willworlds," and assumes that these dreams are the exception and the other dreams are a legitimate hierarchy. This is honestly a special pleading argument. If we're already shown that dream worlds exist in parallel, how do you expect me to buy from that point forward that there is legitimate R>F? With such a precedent established, the presumption is now that all dream worlds exist in parallel until proven otherwise, and I haven't seen any actual scans or evidence to suggest that the non-willworld dreams have legitimate R>F or can be justified as an exception.

2. Let's just ignore the parallelism anti-feat, they're literally depicted as dreams! You're just being disingenuous by disregarding that!

The standards say that such anti-feats should not be ignored, and saying they should for no good reason is textbook special pleading fallacy.

Qualifiers​

In order to qualify they must view the world as a some actual form of 'fiction', i.e. to them what happens in the fiction is not real and of no physical consequence to their being and also otherwise is of no greater consequence to their being than an actual fictional character could reasonably be to a real life human. However, the medium in which they view the world as fiction generally does not matter, as it being fiction is enough for a Reality-Fiction Transcendence to be considered.

Potential mediums for viewing a cosmology as fiction include: written media (Books or stories), images (Paintings, comics, or movies), data (Simulations or video games), or mental constructs (thoughts or dreams). All of the above would be considered less 'real' than the person who views the cosmology as such, and can directly imply qualitative superiority. Note that the medium is usually a representation or container for the fiction on a higher plane and not necessarily the fiction in itself.

In edge cases, where it is unclear whether a depiction qualifies as truly viewing a world as fiction, the most important deciding factor is whether the depiction justifies an assumption of qualitative superiority for the same reasons as the above mentioned general cases. I.e. one should ask oneself: Is it by nature of the depiction likely that nothing that happens in the 'fictional world', no matter how powerful, could affect the 'real world' due to the fictional nature of the former?

However, there are also factors that can speak against Reality-Fiction Transcendence, even if all of the above is given. Those include:

  • The realities are portrayed like parallel universes or otherwise as having just a finite difference in scale or having a similar nature.
  • The characters from both realities are generally being portrayed as comparable in power
  • The author character completely live in the fictional medium themselves. For example the author character might have a book that contains the world, but the author themselves are also a character in it and don't exist outside it any more than other characters of that world.
  • The fictional characters being able to attack the real ones without being shown to somehow have transcended their fictional world or having special abilities that allow it. Such instances often have to be analyzed on a case-by-case basis to judge how they are best rated.
It says right there that even if something is successfully depicted as a medium for viewing another thing as fiction, a factor like the realities having a finite difference in scale or being parallel worlds would rule out R>F. It's even worse here, because it's not like the dreams are successfully depicted as existing in a hierarcy in the first place, and it's obvious that "dreaming something" is equivalent to creating a parallel world rather than an infinitesimal lower plane of existence. I also don't think anyone addressed my point about how the "dreaming each other" part makes no sense, because does reality-1 view reality-2 as fiction, or is it the other way around?
 
This argument falls into headcanon territory. It's entirely based off how those parallel worlds in the image were called "willworlds," and assumes that these dreams are the exception and the other dreams are a legitimate hierarchy. This is honestly a special pleading argument. If we're already shown that dream worlds exist in parallel, how do you expect me to buy from that point forward that there is legitimate R>F? With such a precedent established, the presumption is now that all dream worlds exist in parallel until proven otherwise, and I haven't seen any actual scans or evidence to suggest that the non-willworld dreams have legitimate R>F or can be justified as an exception.
How does this negate the qualitative difference between the layers? If there is an infinity of three-dimensional universes, does that permanently cancel their superiority over two-dimensional ones? And you still cannot understand that these are parallel universes within the unconscious sleep of one being, one step in the hierarchy, which does not exclude its insignificance before its superior. You literally contradict the words of DeMatteis that individual universes are more real than the previous ones, which are also just a dream of another being. Or, of course, will you write that these are just metaphors and buzzwords, and therefore should not be taken into account, because this opinion is more beneficial to you?
It says right there that even if something is successfully depicted as a medium for viewing another thing as fiction, a factor like the realities having a finite difference in scale or being parallel worlds would rule out R>F.
Parallel universes within one level of the hierarchy. Why does the rule ignore the structure of presentation of interpretations, where the infinity of parallel worlds is only a fiction of a higher level?
 
1. "It's obvious that the dreams which are depicted as parallel worlds belong to one layer."

This argument falls into headcanon territory. It's entirely based off how those parallel worlds in the image were called "willworlds," and assumes that these dreams are the exception and the other dreams are a legitimate hierarchy. This is honestly a special pleading argument. If we're already shown that dream worlds exist in parallel, how do you expect me to buy from that point forward that there is legitimate R>F? With such a precedent established, the presumption is now that all dream worlds exist in parallel until proven otherwise, and I haven't seen any actual scans or evidence to suggest that the non-willworld dreams have legitimate R>F or can be justified as an exception.
I laid out several burdens of proof here, and none of them have been fulfilled, more “my interpretation which has no scans backing it is right because I said so and you don’t know DeMatteis like I do!” I don’t know how anyone could try the same thing over and over and expect vastly different results.

I will request closure.
 
I laid out several burdens of proof here, and none of them have been fulfilled, more “my interpretation which has no scans backing it is right because I said so and you don’t know DeMatteis like I do!” I don’t know how anyone could try the same thing over and over and expect vastly different results.

I will request closure.
This is not my interpretation, but the author's. You have to be a really arrogant person to try to challenge the words of the author without having any canonical rights to do so.

You have no evidence other than your personal words, which completely contradict what the author described and showed in his work; moreover, you make a free interpretation to please your personal desire, and not the evidence actually shown. Has it been stated that individual universes are more real than previous ones? Yes. Has it been stated that the universe is just a hologram of the projection of the mind? Yes. It has been stated that beings from the unconscious higher dream are more real than beings from the lower dream? Yes again. All you have is from the responses to this evidence, statements that this is all wrong, and the prover is wrong, because I don’t like it, and I don’t want to accept it that way.
 
Also, I like to notion of Heaven hierarchy was not debunked. A person decides to interpret something that has nothing to do with the scan.

As above, the person made their point, if Ant would I can dismantle such notions since there are so many contextual issues missing.
That would be appreciated, yes.
The main points are supplementary to the notion of our tiers rather than how the story reflects our tiering system. Given that Matteis has written all his stories the same and Marvel is no different in how he writes in DC.
And this point is what I consider sufficiently good to warrant unlocking this thread for the moment.

DeMatteis (who is a wonderful human being, very unlike many of his colleagues) does tend to write his perception of higher reality in the same manner regardless of the company, given that this is his genuine perception of reality as a disciple of Meher Baba.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top