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Dc DeMateis cosmology and yet PART 2

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Not open for further replies.
ProfectusInfinity said:

Infinite Hierarchy of Souls in Heaven​

I don't intend to begin this section with an "appeal to authority," but it's worth pointing out that these particular arguments were downgraded not too long ago by IdiosyncraticLawyer, and this CRT hasn't introduced any new supporting evidence or additional lines of reasoning than the exact same scans and arguments given previously. The scans for this hierarchy are mostly scattered, so I'll try addressing the basic premises.
Click to expand...
I want to point out that after reading the whole 5 pages, nothing about the cosmology was downgraded here. IdiosyncraticLawyer mentioned that the thread had become too messy to use for an upgrade, and they were going to downgrade the tiers for the time being until a cosmology CRT could be passed. Having the character tiering and the cosmology differently tiered at the time being would be problematic. VeryGoofyToddler obtained a statement from DeMateis on Twitter.
A. A level of existence transcendence with each other. Referring to Wiki revision

B. Just a spiritual journey. Referring to Deagon claim which I disagree with not about the journey but disregarding the whole idea behind the layers of dream.

C. A bit of both.

He said all three and God contains it all and he is the real soul of reality.
Click to expand...
Only one person disagreed, citing it as too vague, while others agreed, in the end, it wasn't used to upgrade due to the thread getting too messy.

I don't know if you intentionally left the context out or not, but it's problematic to cite other CRTs as evidence and misinterpret what happened in them.

To avoid any misinterpretation of the statement, it's clear that by capitalizing 'ALL,' he meant to agree with both of VeryGoofyToddler's options.
 
ProfectusInfinity said:
As a matter of fact, the dreams are portrayed as neighboring universes. I'm shocked at myself for not having brought this up originally, but the dream universes are literally... wait for it: stated to exist in parallel.
Click to expand...
In my opinion, it is obvious that these parallel universes do not belong to the hierarchy itself, these are universes that have been spawned by green lanterns, which are at the same level of the ladder, which does not cancel the hierarchy itself as such

ProfectusInfinity said:
For one thing, the word "hierarchy" isn't actually mentioned in the scan and the sequence of dreams is compared to a series of steps.
Click to expand...
Words are not as important as the meaning of these words, I do not understand why such presentations to the scan are needed. Obviously, by hierarchy we mean the qualitative difference in fiction/reality.
 
ImmortalDread said:
@ProfectusInfinity summarized my thoughts as well.
Click to expand...
What's your debunk for Heaven? His arguments don't work. FRA. What are your thoughts on this?
EmperorRorepmeTwo said:
I disagree with this and I do think 12D should apply.

Although I agree the person who said it was some random, at the same time the story portrays it as what the random "lunatic" is saying is what is actually the case.

What I mean is the people didn't take the man seriously, but it just so happens that what he's been saying is true. There's a character who hosted a TV show talking about conspiracies and aliens, and it just so happens that what he was saying was true even though he didn't believe it.

So I don't think the author intended that to just be a random throwaway statement, rather just a precursor to what's to come, something that's true. So it's not something we can just handwave.

As for the dream hierarchy, I don't feel too strongly about it since I haven't looked into it.
Click to expand...
 
Robo432343 said:
dc will always cap at 7D😭
sad day for us dc fans
better luck next time
Click to expand...
If you want to have a chance at actually bringing change, try doing as much research as Ultima did to get Marvel High 1-A. Just compare the detail and reasoning of his threads to what you've been bringing to the table.
vsbattles.com

Revising Marvel's Abstracts (Part 1 of ???) (STAFF ONLY)

Right, so, at the moment the profiles for the Marvel Comics Abstracts are all quite bad, and in pretty dire need to repairs. Not only in terms of tiering, but also of... everything, really. This thread will be Part 1 of an attempt at overhauling them. Beginning from the top (The tiers). About...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
vsbattles.com

Revising Marvel's Abstracts (Part 2 of ????)

Hi all. Glad to see you all here after the previous thread. As the title suggests, this is a continuation of my ongoing revisions of Marvel's Cosmics, this time tackling the tiering of the Omniversal Abstracts. After this one, I plan to make a Part 2.5, which will deal with fixing... everything...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
vsbattles.com

Revising Marvel's Abstracts (Part 2.5 of ?????)

Well, ******* finally. As it stands, this thread will largely only discuss scaling and presentation of profiles, so, those who are not interested in this are free to ignore it. I'm also not terribly sure if this is controversial enough to warrant being moved to the Staff Discussion board, as...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
 
IdiosyncraticLawyer said:
If you want to have a chance at actually bringing change, try doing as much research as Ultima did to get Marvel High 1-A. Just compare the detail and reasoning of his threads to what you've been bringing to the table.
vsbattles.com

Revising Marvel's Abstracts (Part 1 of ???) (STAFF ONLY)

Right, so, at the moment the profiles for the Marvel Comics Abstracts are all quite bad, and in pretty dire need to repairs. Not only in terms of tiering, but also of... everything, really. This thread will be Part 1 of an attempt at overhauling them. Beginning from the top (The tiers). About...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
vsbattles.com

Revising Marvel's Abstracts (Part 2 of ????)

Hi all. Glad to see you all here after the previous thread. As the title suggests, this is a continuation of my ongoing revisions of Marvel's Cosmics, this time tackling the tiering of the Omniversal Abstracts. After this one, I plan to make a Part 2.5, which will deal with fixing... everything...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
vsbattles.com

Revising Marvel's Abstracts (Part 2.5 of ?????)

Well, ******* finally. As it stands, this thread will largely only discuss scaling and presentation of profiles, so, those who are not interested in this are free to ignore it. I'm also not terribly sure if this is controversial enough to warrant being moved to the Staff Discussion board, as...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
Click to expand...
Yes Ultima's effort put into that thread was crazy

but the thing is upgrading DC to a higher tier is more difficult now that the cosmologies are split while Marvel's isn't

Fun fact marvel's cosmology was actually planned to be split until Ultima made that CRT💀
 
Last edited:
IdiosyncraticLawyer said:
If you want to have a chance at actually bringing change, try doing as much research as Ultima did to get Marvel High 1-A. Just compare the detail and reasoning of his threads to what you've been bringing to the table.
vsbattles.com

Revising Marvel's Abstracts (Part 1 of ???) (STAFF ONLY)

Right, so, at the moment the profiles for the Marvel Comics Abstracts are all quite bad, and in pretty dire need to repairs. Not only in terms of tiering, but also of... everything, really. This thread will be Part 1 of an attempt at overhauling them. Beginning from the top (The tiers). About...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
vsbattles.com

Revising Marvel's Abstracts (Part 2 of ????)

Hi all. Glad to see you all here after the previous thread. As the title suggests, this is a continuation of my ongoing revisions of Marvel's Cosmics, this time tackling the tiering of the Omniversal Abstracts. After this one, I plan to make a Part 2.5, which will deal with fixing... everything...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
vsbattles.com

Revising Marvel's Abstracts (Part 2.5 of ?????)

Well, ******* finally. As it stands, this thread will largely only discuss scaling and presentation of profiles, so, those who are not interested in this are free to ignore it. I'm also not terribly sure if this is controversial enough to warrant being moved to the Staff Discussion board, as...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
Click to expand...
Give me 2 weeks to a month for research, and I'll create the best 1-A CRT ever made.
 
There's no point to this thread. I could point out everything as I did last time but that's not going to get anywhere unless they agree only because no one else tried to disassemble Profectus reasoning.

I heavily disagree with that entire reasoning and I could point out the flaws that seem to be a pattern even when given the entire major consensus agrees with the OP. Only to be dragged because mods outweigh votes which is kind of ridiculous given, that just agreeing with a view with heavy interpretation is only swayed upon that said “interpretation.” The thread is done since already 2 mods agree unless Ant wants me to respond with my reasoning against it which I don't see being the case.

I'm not here to derail and drag arguments on views including very nuanced details unless we're fine with discussing it. If not, this thread seems to be at an end. I would make a thread of Matteis's entire writing career in DC with my conversation with him if this is closed because I'm bewildered at how much is being put in without knowing the context of the story and setting.
 
Shouldn't people who agree with Profectus state why they disagree with a literal statement from the author?
 
Bastolan27 said:
Shouldn't people who agree with Profectus state why they disagree with a literal statement from the author?
Click to expand...
The biggest problem here is most of the people agreeing with his point either have not read the story or already determined their votes prior to the given reason.

For one, Ant asked for a summary for each side with Profectus giving a longer summary it also just looks visually pleasing. So the people who already have preconceived their vote would ultimately lean toward it due to that summary.

I'm not in the mindset that the people who do agree with the OP actually understand the context as well. However, the OP forum wasn't long and was a pretty easy read which looks pretty clear in what it's meant to represent. Profectus just made a long summary for I guess aesthetics as to why the OP was wrong and how his/her reasoning heavily argued on the point of missing what a parallel universe is. Hence why does he/she argue on the point of terminology, direct evidence, and unused words such as hierarchy. As if that rectify any importance given that some of that reason is “random belief” of lunatics as to not even question why these statements were brought up.

I don't want to sound rude or protrude any negativity even if it sounds like a paradox. However, the argument is inherently very weak, and I’m more leaning toward the people who agree that he/she already had their vote prior to that summary.
 
I'm not sure if they read all of it when OP and I were responding to Profectus. I simply believe they looked at the summaries and just picked whatever looked better.

I can see some mistakes on the OP side but they don't change whatever tier is meant to be given. It's just a small detail in reference to the hierarchy of added bonuses.
 
Brahmatman said:
Just like people see universes as a dream. Which people try so hard to deny
Click to expand...
It's not that. The main focal point is there is no R>F difference between dreams to suggest each realm transcends the other as layers of the Dream.

Which the story clearly expresses otherwise. Highly debunkable points that I'm willing to just respond to since Ant probably won't be here in a while. If not, I'll not respond to the summary but rather show what the hierarchy is to denote some fallible logic with said “summary” of Profectus.
 
ProfectusInfinity said:

But can't we at least scale them above the 12 dimensions introduced within the story?​

Let's talk about that statement. After news of the alien abductions gains public traction, a crowd of nutjobs and conspiracy theorists gather around Herbert Moore's house awaiting alien arrivals. One lunatic in underpants and a red alien suit harasses Mr. Moore, and asks him to take them and the crowd to the 12th dimension in an entranced tone. You even have more reasonable people in the crowd being sarcastic about his antics. This interaction took place in the second issue of the storyline, on the page indexed in the scan.

To put it simply, this statement wasn't depicted as something meant to be taken seriously. You have to read the issue to understand it, otherwise I might come off as "oh, I'll just dismiss statements at random," but let me illustrate as best I can. As I said, the guy who made the statement was a lunatic, which is something onlookers acknowledge. It wasn't like knowledgeable characters were speculating higher dimensions, and it wasn't like 12 dimensions were confirmed to exist by godly or otherwise reliable sources. Hell, the interaction with the nutjob wasn't even portrayed as a cuckoolander was right sort of trope. In no manner whatsoever was the 12-D statement depicted by the author as something genuinely pertaining to cosmology. A better way to phrase it is that unless you're viewing this scan strictly through a power scaling lens and ignore all the context surrounding it, nothing would lead an average/critical reader to give it any weight. 12 dimensions were never genuinely introduced within the story, nor are there 12 speculative dimensions we can scale the aliens above. Qawsedf said there's other supporting evidence for 12-D stuff in latter storylines, so I'm interested in hearing about that.
Click to expand...
The existence of the term "Dimension" was confirmed near the end of this comic, effectively confirming the existence of theories of these dimensions in the universe. You are constantly trying to operate on the random statements of a madman, forgetting that the confirmation of his words actually happened in the chronological order of things. You literally contradict your own words, because the “Aliens” themselves confirmed that the concept of dimensions is too limited for them, of course, within the context of the contexts of higher beings in the deeper layers of reality. The authors can do many things that are very insignificant in their cosmological structures and do not play a significant role, because they are not their tasteful narrative and motives built by the cornerstone of the idea of the comic (In DeMatteis, most of the comics are tied to the idea of dreams, and, or almost, do not use as such scientific interpretations of spatial dimensions from physics, but this is not at all cancels their presence in the work). I may surprise you, but the average reader is not interested in what higher dimensions and qualitative superiorities there are, he doesn’t even think about it, or what level of strength a given character has? So the appeal is a lack of attention reader to this thing, nothing more than a speculative subjective opinion. Dimensions and cannot be represented in history, because the aliens are simply superior to these things, or is it so difficult to understand? They talk about it themselves.
ProfectusInfinity said:

Infinite-dimensional statement (surprised no one brought this up yet)​

This wasn't mentioned by the OP or any supporters, but as luck would have it, I read the Goku vs Superman 3 G1 predictions blog last night, and it linked this scan from the Kansas Sighting storyline deducing that the multiverse was infinite dimensional. As you can see, the main cast are questioning the reality of the alien abductions, and Dr. Berenson says that "as quantum physicists are learning, "real" is a word that can be bent in an infinite number of directions." Let's just cut to the chase: there's no context you can take from this statement to conclude the existence of something like infinite-dimensional space. The statement just means "there are infinite ways of understanding reality," hence why they theorize explanations for the alien sightings.
Click to expand...
It doesn’t give anything without context, so why even focus on it?
ProfectusInfinity said:

There are limitless planes of existence in heaven, as many realms in heaven as there are souls, as many hells as there are Nerons, and many planes of existence.​

As IdiosyncraticLawyer said, the scans are clearly saying that each individual person's heaven is tailored to their belief system, which isn't evidence for some of them transcending the others, only that heaven gives each soul a different realm. Basically, they only state that there are different heavens for souls with different learning needs before reincarnation and implies no infinite hierarchy, and the word "beyond" is used too vaguely at certain points to glean any information from it about qualitative superiority. In other words, the different planes are mostly depicted as being parallel to one another.
Click to expand...
And of course, you again ignored the indication from the second volume of Doctor Fate that Above and Below the higher planes in Heaven makes so little sense? We know very well from evidence that Heaven is the final stage before God, after dreams, an even deeper thing than sleep. It is obvious that Heaven is almost the final exaltation in DeMatteis's hierarchical cosmological structure, where the growth of one's own existence is so over that in Heaven this concept simply does not exist. This does not apply to Heaven in relation to each other, but puts them on a level above dreams, seeing other universes as a dream, a universe projected by a hologram from one's own mind.



ProfectusInfinity said:

The planes transcend one another because they were stated to be an infinite hierarchy of dreams within dreams.​

As Deagonx said, the scan about "truer and deeper dreams" is not best interpreted as an R>F layer.

The story is about a man named Robert who died, but instead of going to Heaven, he entered an ideal dream world where he got to live out the life that he always wanted to have. Spectre starts showing up and influencing the dream, to try to break Robert out of it. Spectre explains that sometimes souls who can't let go of their earthy lives enter these dream worlds before moving onto Heaven, but he had to intervene because Robert was stuck there.

When they arrive at the gates of Heaven, Robert asks if Heaven is also a dream, and Spectre gives this monologue:

"Call it a deeper dream... a truer dream. But there are more dreams still -- beyond it! And each deep dream thins the veil between you and the Divine Dreamer. Between the limited self you imagine you are -- and the infinite self you've always been. It's an adventure Robert. A journey of discovery... from lifetime to lifetime... dream to dream."

It's more about spiritual growth than it is meant to be interpreted as R>F layers that Robert (or all of humanity) are rising through. Spectre didn't plop down into a realm he considered fictional to pull Robert up into a "more real" level of reality. Letting go of the dream world was a step along the way of his spiritual growth. Deeper/Truer dream doesn't actually pertain to dreams within dreams, but the "correct" dreams you arrive to on a constant journey of transcendence.
Click to expand...
Again, we are transported again to the indication that the Higher Planes have no meaning in Heaven, so yes, this is indeed a transcendental thing in relation to the hierarchy of dreams between living beings, each of which only creates the illusion of the universe for the other
ProfectusInfinity said:

But the collective unconscious has its own infinite hierarchy? Living beings can create their own universes, which exist as a sequence of dreams (hierarchy), where one dream exists as someone else's dream, ad infinitum.​

My contention with this is the fact that the dreams of the collective unconscious aren't portrayed as existing within a hierarchy. For one thing, the word "hierarchy" isn't actually mentioned in the scan and the sequence of dreams is compared to a series of steps. As a matter of fact, the dreams are portrayed as neighboring universes. I'm shocked at myself for not having brought this up originally, but the dream universes are literally... wait for it: stated to exist in parallel. I shouldn't even have to elaborate from this point onwards. Being parallel is the exact opposite of what an actual higher dimension should be, and indisputably confirms that the universes exist on the same plane. At best, I'd liken it to statements where the different universes in DC are described as being fiction to another world's reality: not in the sense that universes transcend one another (they're verbatim said to exist in parallel under this scan too), but in the sense that all of existence can be interpreted as a shared set of stories that everyone contributes to.

Likewise, when the characters "dream each other" (like with a boy thinking a universe into existence which is visualized by him blowing a bubble, then an alien spectating that boy through a crystal ball), it's best interpreted as contributing to the greater collective unconscious by applying their dreams as elements to something else's archetype. "Dreaming each other" just introduces more confusion to the notion of a hierarchy because it's like... does dream-1 view dream-2 as fiction, or is it the other way around? This section was short, so I don't need to write a conclusion, but interpreting the collective unconscious as a hierarchy is extremely unreliable.

But Marvel gained upgrades for the same thing? ​

Click to expand...
You not only distorted, but also misinterpreted the text provided, but first things first


ProfectusInfinity said:
As a matter of fact, the dreams are portrayed as neighboring universes.
Click to expand...
You mistook the neighboring universes of Green Lanterns, existing within one layer, for the dreams of absolutely all creatures. You either didn't read it correctly or didn't understand.

And so my wiilworld took its place beside thousands of other willworld created by the Green lanterns that had been tested before me.

And from this text it turns out that within the framework of one world of Hal Jordan, neighboring universes of other green lanterns float. Is it written somewhere that we are talking about all dreams? Apparently not. Or did all living beings (child, artist, etc.) become Green Lanterns? Also no. Then why did you blatantly lie and distort the submitted text, which is completely unrelated to what is presented in the comic?
Several of DeMatteis' comics make it clear that universes are nothing more than holograms of the mind. So if she is a hologram, and ordinary beings like Superman cannot understand the higher abstract beings from the world of the individual and collective unconscious, then why does it appear from your words that they exist on the same level of existence? Is Demattheis contradicting himself? You made a good mistake in your own reasoning and evidence
ProfectusInfinity said:
At best, I'd liken it to statements where the different universes in DC are described as being fiction to another world's reality: not in the sense that universes transcend one another (they're verbatim said to exist in parallel under this scan too), but in the sense that all of existence can be interpreted as a shared set of stories that everyone contributes to.
Click to expand...
Yes, you divided cosmology into different authors, and use the cosmological device of another author, very good. The only problem is that several times it is indicated that the universe is just a hologram, an illusion or a dream of someone from above. What have we learned from the Green Lantern comic? That universes are created by the same people with their imagination, which can only be the dream of someone else’s dream.


ProfectusInfinity said:
it's best interpreted as contributing to the greater collective unconscious by applying their dreams as elements to something else's archetype.
Click to expand...
We return again to the topic of why the universe is only a hologram, and creatures from this universe cannot comprehend creatures from a higher world, and moreover, these creatures (aliens) are more real than the universe of the character from where he came (Superman). A very good archetype and existence on one plane of existence, which for some reason does not work.


ProfectusInfinity said:
"Dreaming each other" just introduces more confusion to the notion of a hierarchy because it's like... does dream-1 view dream-2 as fiction, or is it the other way around?
Click to expand...
We were directly shown that Hal's universe is only a dream of a boy made of inflatable bubbles, and the boy is only a dream artist who perceives a lower dream in a ball. What is implied is that each dreams is only a dream of the other, and not that the lower dreams sees the higher one (this was not even shown, but quite the opposite).


ProfectusInfinity said:

But Marvel gained upgrades for the same thing? ​

False equivalence. In the Omniverse section of Ultima's cosmology blog, he provides clear evidence for an infinite sequence of dreams within dreams, worlds within worlds, that actually encompass each other and transcend/contain lower ones as mere thought.
Click to expand...
This is nothing more than a convenient interpretation for this Wiki. The lack of a wiki-friendly interpretation does not make the cosmological device not analogous to other cosmologies from other works. If you ask the author “What is a dimensional hierarchy?” They will simply laugh and not understand you, but you continue to use terms that are not used in real science or world interpretation, that are not used there?
 
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Minos_the_Judge said:
The existence of the term "Dimension" was confirmed near the end of this comic, effectively confirming the existence of theories of these dimensions in the universe. You are constantly trying to operate on the random statements of a madman, forgetting that the confirmation of his words actually happened in the chronological order of things. You literally contradict your own words, because the “Aliens” themselves confirmed that the concept of dimensions is too limited for them, of course, within the context of the contexts of higher beings in the deeper layers of reality. The authors can do many things that are very insignificant in their cosmological structures and do not play a significant role, because they are not their tasteful narrative and motives built by the cornerstone of the idea of the comic (In DeMatteis, most of the comics are tied to the idea of dreams, and, or almost, do not use as such scientific interpretations of spatial dimensions from physics, but this is not at all cancels their presence in the work). I may surprise you, but the average reader is not interested in what higher dimensions and qualitative superiorities there are, he doesn’t even think about it, or what level of strength a given character has? So the appeal is a lack of attention reader to this thing, nothing more than a speculative subjective opinion. Dimensions and cannot be represented in history, because the aliens are simply superior to these things, or is it so difficult to understand? They talk about it themselves.

It doesn’t give anything without context, so why even focus on it?

And of course, you again ignored the indication from the second volume of Doctor Fate that Above and Below the higher planes in Heaven makes so little sense? We know very well from evidence that Heaven is the final stage before God, after dreams, an even deeper thing than sleep. It is obvious that Heaven is almost the final exaltation in DeMatteis's hierarchical cosmological structure, where the growth of one's own existence is so over that in Heaven this concept simply does not exist. This does not apply to Heaven in relation to each other, but puts them on a level above dreams, seeing other universes as a dream, a universe projected by a hologram from one's own mind.




Again, we are transported again to the indication that the Higher Planes have no meaning in Heaven, so yes, this is indeed a transcendental thing in relation to the hierarchy of dreams between living beings, each of which only creates the illusion of the universe for the other

You not only distorted, but also misinterpreted the text provided, but first things first



You mistook the neighboring universes of Green Lanterns, existing within one layer, for the dreams of absolutely all creatures. You either didn't read it correctly or didn't understand.

And so my wiilworld took its place beside thousands of other willworld created by the Green lanterns that had been tested before me.

And from this text it turns out that within the framework of one world of Hal Jordan, neighboring universes of other green lanterns float. Is it written somewhere that we are talking about all dreams? Apparently not. Or did all living beings (child, artist, etc.) become Green Lanterns? Also no. Then why did you blatantly lie and distort the submitted text, which is completely unrelated to what is presented in the comic?
Several of DeMatteis' comics make it clear that universes are nothing more than holograms of the mind. So if she is a hologram, and ordinary beings like Superman cannot understand the higher abstract beings from the world of the individual and collective unconscious, then why does it appear from your words that they exist on the same level of existence? Is Demattheis contradicting himself? You made a good mistake in your own reasoning and evidence

Yes, you divided cosmology into different authors, and use the cosmological device of another author, very good. The only problem is that several times it is indicated that the universe is just a hologram, an illusion or a dream of someone from above. What have we learned from the Green Lantern comic? That universes are created by the same people with their imagination, which can only be the dream of someone else’s dream.



We return again to the topic of why the universe is only a hologram, and creatures from this universe cannot comprehend creatures from a higher world, and moreover, these creatures (aliens) are more real than the universe of the character from where he came (Superman). A very good archetype and existence on one plane of existence, which for some reason does not work.



We were directly shown that Hal's universe is only a dream of a boy made of inflatable bubbles, and the boy is only a dream artist who perceives a lower dream in a ball. What is implied is that each dreams is only a dream of the other, and not that the lower dreams sees the higher one (this was not even shown, but quite the opposite).



This is nothing more than a convenient interpretation for this Wiki. The lack of a wiki-friendly interpretation does not make the cosmological device not analogous to other cosmologies from other works. If you ask the author “What is a dimensional hierarchy?” They will simply laugh and not understand you, but you continue to use terms that are not used in real science or world interpretation, that are not used there?
Click to expand...
Whoa, awesome
 
I don't see any reason why this shouldn't have the levels that are stated, all criticism towards this blog is based either on a wrong reading or on a wrong interpretation by critics. It would be better for you to start criticizing it yourself than to agree with the person who did not read everything correctly. I'm talking about Profectus Infinity, of course, the wiki system is so imperfect that it can ignore facts in favor of opinion.
 
Minos_the_Judge said:
The existence of the term "Dimension" was confirmed near the end of this comic, effectively confirming the existence of theories of these dimensions in the universe. You are constantly trying to operate on the random statements of a madman, forgetting that the confirmation of his words actually happened in the chronological order of things. You literally contradict your own words, because the “Aliens” themselves confirmed that the concept of dimensions is too limited for them, of course, within the context of the contexts of higher beings in the deeper layers of reality. The authors can do many things that are very insignificant in their cosmological structures and do not play a significant role, because they are not their tasteful narrative and motives built by the cornerstone of the idea of the comic (In DeMatteis, most of the comics are tied to the idea of dreams, and, or almost, do not use as such scientific interpretations of spatial dimensions from physics, but this is not at all cancels their presence in the work). I may surprise you, but the average reader is not interested in what higher dimensions and qualitative superiorities there are, he doesn’t even think about it, or what level of strength a given character has? So the appeal is a lack of attention reader to this thing, nothing more than a speculative subjective opinion. Dimensions and cannot be represented in history, because the aliens are simply superior to these things, or is it so difficult to understand? They talk about it themselves.

It doesn’t give anything without context, so why even focus on it?

And of course, you again ignored the indication from the second volume of Doctor Fate that Above and Below the higher planes in Heaven makes so little sense? We know very well from evidence that Heaven is the final stage before God, after dreams, an even deeper thing than sleep. It is obvious that Heaven is almost the final exaltation in DeMatteis's hierarchical cosmological structure, where the growth of one's own existence is so over that in Heaven this concept simply does not exist. This does not apply to Heaven in relation to each other, but puts them on a level above dreams, seeing other universes as a dream, a universe projected by a hologram from one's own mind.




Again, we are transported again to the indication that the Higher Planes have no meaning in Heaven, so yes, this is indeed a transcendental thing in relation to the hierarchy of dreams between living beings, each of which only creates the illusion of the universe for the other

You not only distorted, but also misinterpreted the text provided, but first things first



You mistook the neighboring universes of Green Lanterns, existing within one layer, for the dreams of absolutely all creatures. You either didn't read it correctly or didn't understand.

And so my wiilworld took its place beside thousands of other willworld created by the Green lanterns that had been tested before me.

And from this text it turns out that within the framework of one world of Hal Jordan, neighboring universes of other green lanterns float. Is it written somewhere that we are talking about all dreams? Apparently not. Or did all living beings (child, artist, etc.) become Green Lanterns? Also no. Then why did you blatantly lie and distort the submitted text, which is completely unrelated to what is presented in the comic?
Several of DeMatteis' comics make it clear that universes are nothing more than holograms of the mind. So if she is a hologram, and ordinary beings like Superman cannot understand the higher abstract beings from the world of the individual and collective unconscious, then why does it appear from your words that they exist on the same level of existence? Is Demattheis contradicting himself? You made a good mistake in your own reasoning and evidence

Yes, you divided cosmology into different authors, and use the cosmological device of another author, very good. The only problem is that several times it is indicated that the universe is just a hologram, an illusion or a dream of someone from above. What have we learned from the Green Lantern comic? That universes are created by the same people with their imagination, which can only be the dream of someone else’s dream.



We return again to the topic of why the universe is only a hologram, and creatures from this universe cannot comprehend creatures from a higher world, and moreover, these creatures (aliens) are more real than the universe of the character from where he came (Superman). A very good archetype and existence on one plane of existence, which for some reason does not work.



We were directly shown that Hal's universe is only a dream of a boy made of inflatable bubbles, and the boy is only a dream artist who perceives a lower dream in a ball. What is implied is that each dreams is only a dream of the other, and not that the lower dreams sees the higher one (this was not even shown, but quite the opposite).



This is nothing more than a convenient interpretation for this Wiki. The lack of a wiki-friendly interpretation does not make the cosmological device not analogous to other cosmologies from other works. If you ask the author “What is a dimensional hierarchy?” They will simply laugh and not understand you, but you continue to use terms that are not used in real science or world interpretation, that are not used there?
Click to expand...
Wow, incredible response
 
Minos_the_Judge said:
The existence of the term "Dimension" was confirmed near the end of this comic, effectively confirming the existence of theories of these dimensions in the universe. You are constantly trying to operate on the random statements of a madman, forgetting that the confirmation of his words actually happened in the chronological order of things. You literally contradict your own words, because the “Aliens” themselves confirmed that the concept of dimensions is too limited for them, of course, within the context of the contexts of higher beings in the deeper layers of reality. The authors can do many things that are very insignificant in their cosmological structures and do not play a significant role, because they are not their tasteful narrative and motives built by the cornerstone of the idea of the comic (In DeMatteis, most of the comics are tied to the idea of dreams, and, or almost, do not use as such scientific interpretations of spatial dimensions from physics, but this is not at all cancels their presence in the work). I may surprise you, but the average reader is not interested in what higher dimensions and qualitative superiorities there are, he doesn’t even think about it, or what level of strength a given character has? So the appeal is a lack of attention reader to this thing, nothing more than a speculative subjective opinion. Dimensions and cannot be represented in history, because the aliens are simply superior to these things, or is it so difficult to understand? They talk about it themselves.

It doesn’t give anything without context, so why even focus on it?

And of course, you again ignored the indication from the second volume of Doctor Fate that Above and Below the higher planes in Heaven makes so little sense? We know very well from evidence that Heaven is the final stage before God, after dreams, an even deeper thing than sleep. It is obvious that Heaven is almost the final exaltation in DeMatteis's hierarchical cosmological structure, where the growth of one's own existence is so over that in Heaven this concept simply does not exist. This does not apply to Heaven in relation to each other, but puts them on a level above dreams, seeing other universes as a dream, a universe projected by a hologram from one's own mind.




Again, we are transported again to the indication that the Higher Planes have no meaning in Heaven, so yes, this is indeed a transcendental thing in relation to the hierarchy of dreams between living beings, each of which only creates the illusion of the universe for the other

You not only distorted, but also misinterpreted the text provided, but first things first



You mistook the neighboring universes of Green Lanterns, existing within one layer, for the dreams of absolutely all creatures. You either didn't read it correctly or didn't understand.

And so my wiilworld took its place beside thousands of other willworld created by the Green lanterns that had been tested before me.

And from this text it turns out that within the framework of one world of Hal Jordan, neighboring universes of other green lanterns float. Is it written somewhere that we are talking about all dreams? Apparently not. Or did all living beings (child, artist, etc.) become Green Lanterns? Also no. Then why did you blatantly lie and distort the submitted text, which is completely unrelated to what is presented in the comic?
Several of DeMatteis' comics make it clear that universes are nothing more than holograms of the mind. So if she is a hologram, and ordinary beings like Superman cannot understand the higher abstract beings from the world of the individual and collective unconscious, then why does it appear from your words that they exist on the same level of existence? Is Demattheis contradicting himself? You made a good mistake in your own reasoning and evidence

Yes, you divided cosmology into different authors, and use the cosmological device of another author, very good. The only problem is that several times it is indicated that the universe is just a hologram, an illusion or a dream of someone from above. What have we learned from the Green Lantern comic? That universes are created by the same people with their imagination, which can only be the dream of someone else’s dream.



We return again to the topic of why the universe is only a hologram, and creatures from this universe cannot comprehend creatures from a higher world, and moreover, these creatures (aliens) are more real than the universe of the character from where he came (Superman). A very good archetype and existence on one plane of existence, which for some reason does not work.



We were directly shown that Hal's universe is only a dream of a boy made of inflatable bubbles, and the boy is only a dream artist who perceives a lower dream in a ball. What is implied is that each dreams is only a dream of the other, and not that the lower dreams sees the higher one (this was not even shown, but quite the opposite).



This is nothing more than a convenient interpretation for this Wiki. The lack of a wiki-friendly interpretation does not make the cosmological device not analogous to other cosmologies from other works. If you ask the author “What is a dimensional hierarchy?” They will simply laugh and not understand you, but you continue to use terms that are not used in real science or world interpretation, that are not used there?
Click to expand...
Very good. This truly goes over what the story entails.

The only thing I would say is that Heaven isn't actually the final layer and there are possibly endless amounts of layers above it. Heaven has layers as well, each being greater, while there are entire planes different from both conventional and unconventional Heaven.

The final stage is with the Avatar. When you're done with your journey, he will connect you to the Oversoul.

There's no real end for the Soul, the journey only ends when they “realize” and not everyone realizes at the same time. If it takes countless lifetimes then it will be through countless planes. You just keep going until you're ready to be one individual with God. That's the last dance and the only one worth dancing to.
 
literally the reality fiction page says that something being more 'real' than said world qualifies for a higher tier
vsbattles.fandom.com

Reality-Fiction Transcendence

It is not uncommon in fiction for characters to view lesser realities as if they were fiction, in much the same way as a real world human would view fiction. Frequently that comes in the form of almighty author characters which can freely rewrite those lesser realities. The other way around...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
 
@Robo432343 @VeryGoofyToddler @Bastolan27 @Brahmatman @Minos_the_Judge @Tiktime @PrinceStories Complaining about the wiki's standards will get you nowhere. If you actually want this upgrade to succeed, try putting in as much effort as Ultima did to upgrade Marvel and do enough research to craft a detailed, airtight argument that cleanly cites every relevant part of the story and how they precisely fit the wiki's standards. These kinds of low-effort CRTs with a bunch of scans thrown in aren't going to bring any change.
 
Robo432343 said:
literally the reality fiction page says that something being more 'real' than said world qualifies for a higher tier
vsbattles.fandom.com

Reality-Fiction Transcendence

It is not uncommon in fiction for characters to view lesser realities as if they were fiction, in much the same way as a real world human would view fiction. Frequently that comes in the form of almighty author characters which can freely rewrite those lesser realities. The other way around...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
Click to expand...
Looks look the fine print was ignored.
In edge cases, where it is unclear whether a depiction qualifies as truly viewing a world as fiction, the most important deciding factor is whether the depiction justifies an assumption of qualitative superiority for the same reasons as the above mentioned general cases. I.e. one should ask oneself: Is it by nature of the depiction likely that nothing that happens in the 'fictional world', no matter how powerful, could affect the 'real world' due to the fictional nature of the former?

However, there are also factors that can speak against Reality-Fiction Transcendence, even if all of the above is given. Those include:

  • The realities are portrayed like parallel universes or otherwise as having just a finite difference in scale or having a similar nature.
  • The characters from both realities are generally being portrayed as comparable in power
  • The author character completely live in the fictional medium themselves. For example the author character might have a book that contains the world, but the author themselves are also a character in it and don't exist outside it any more than other characters of that world.
  • The fictional characters being able to attack the real ones without being shown to somehow have transcended their fictional world or having special abilities that allow it. Such instances often have to be analyzed on a case-by-case basis to judge how they are best rated.
Click to expand...
 
IdiosyncraticLawyer said:
@Robo432343 @VeryGoofyToddler @Bastolan27 @Brahmatman @Minos_the_Judge @Tiktime @PrinceStories Complaining about the wiki's standards will get you nowhere. If you actually want this upgrade to succeed, try putting in as much effort as Ultima did to upgrade Marvel and do enough research to craft a detailed, airtight argument that cleanly cites every relevant part of the story and how they precisely fit the wiki's standards. These kinds of low-effort CRTs with a bunch of scans thrown in aren't going to bring any change.
Click to expand...
my guy are you good??? ultima was literally upgrading the entirety of MARVEL
the OP is trying to upgrade a single cosmology
you expect this to be fking 50000 words or something?
 
Robo432343 said:
my guy are you good??? ultima was literally upgrading the entirety of MARVEL
the OP is trying to upgrade a single cosmology
you expect this to be fking 50000 words or something?
Click to expand...
No, but at least a sizeable fraction of that. Heck, even something like my SCP cosmology post would suffice.
 
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