DC Comics - The Legendary DC Heralds Upgrade

[PapiSavitar5025]

It was not stated or shown that he shook the entire Phantom Zone previously, no. It was likely just a local area. And we cannot upgrade every single herald-level DC Comics character by a literally infinite amount based on a single instance of unspecified circumstances and completely unproven speculation, no matter how much anybody might try to rhetorically and speculatively reframe it.

"Earthquakes in the distance. The Phantom Zone trembles under the weight of this fight. Every creature and prisoner must have been alerted to this."
Superman isn't saying a portion of the Phantom Zone is trembling, he's saying that the Dimension is general is shaking because of their fight; no where does it even hint that it might be just the general area.

What? No one here is trying to upgrade these characters based off just these statements alone. I don't know where you're getting that assumption from.

Do his avatars or lower reality manifestations scale to that in the post-Crisis continuity? That seems very unreliable and inconsistent in that case.

Yes. The New Gods were unaffected by the events that transpired in Crisis on Infinite Earths. Their true forms -- let alone emanations -- don't change from Pre to Post Crisis.

Yes he is, but the writers are definitely not, and have an obligation to not let every single character that is far less powerful and enormously slower than the Flash seem redundant in team book settìngs (hence why Captain America and Black Widow aren't presented as being completely useless in any team with Thor in the same roster), and Superman and Wonder Woman still don't remotely have any explicit feats of such a scale, which is necessary in order to make this kind of widespread upgrade even slightly reliable.

As I saw Peter David (?) state in an interview once, superhero comic book writers always have to cheat in stories involving extreme speedsters in order to pretend that they ever get a challenge.

I am still of the opinion that we should wait and see where this thread goes, before we start deciding whether or not these characters have reliable feats of that level. As things currently stand, a majority of the staff have collectively decided that some of these feats are okay.

I also want to note that your opinion can just-as-easily be applied to the Man of Steel. There are stories where Superman (or someone with his powers) has either overpowered the stronger members of the League, or someone else mows them down and Superman has to come in before the tide of the fight starts turning.

An extremely weakened Anti-Monitor, yes, and the Golden Age Superman also matched the Silver Age incarnation of Superman at least once, but he also did not have any feats remotely approaching such a scale, and again, everybody can fight everybody as long as a writer feels like it is the fundamental lifeblood of these settings, as is blatantly apparent to anybody truly paying attention, and which was also outright confirmed in a video with Stan Lee that we linked to in our wiki.

Didn't Golden-Age Superman go from barely being able to jump over buildings to traversing the Universe? My point isn't that he's inconsistent, it's that he goes through gigantic leaps in power as he ages. His few appearances since the golden days have him fighting characters on Silver-Age's level. Most notably the Anti-Monitor and Superboy Prime. In an effort to kill Superman, the Anti Monitor absorbed all of the energy from the Anti-Matter universe in an attempt to kill Golden-Age Supes, and the two Kryptonians present survive.

Also gives another wallop to Silver Age.

 

[PapiSavitar5025]

where I am beginning to question how we jumped to the idea of trying to upgrade guys like Aquaman to Low 2-C.

Come on man, not you too. The disrespect for Aquaman is thirty-seven years old.

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

"Earthquakes in the distance. The Phantom Zone trembles under the weight of this fight. Every creature and prisoner must have been alerted to this."
Superman isn't saying a portion of the Phantom Zone is trembling, he's saying that the Dimension is general is shaking because of their fight; no where does it even hint that it might be just the general area.

What? No one here is trying to upgrade these characters based off just these statements alone. I don't know where you're getting that assumption from.

Also the fact that it was stated that he was going to destroy it later in the comic also means that author intent was behind it, also i'm pretty sure op said that he was still working on replies on the thread

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Come on man, not you too. The disrespect for Aquaman is thirty-seven years old.

Funnily enough Aquaman is one of the stronger heralds. If some of them are Low 2-C, Aquaman is definitely one of them

 

[PapiSavitar5025]

Funnily enough Aquaman is one of the stronger heralds. If some of them are Low 2-C, Aquaman is definitely one of them

As much as I'd love to whoop for joy that someone agrees with me, our battle is for another time; when the scaling part of this thread arrives.

Aka let's try and keep things relevant.

 

[TimeTrapperFanBoy]

Come on man, not you too. The disrespect for Aquaman is thirty-seven years old.

"I hAtE FiZh BOI !101010101!"

Jokes aside I'm not one of those hard Aqualad haters, I just used Aquaman as an example of why I'm neutral on the upgrade, granted I could've mentioned somebody else but he was the first dude that came to mind.

 

[CosmicWreck]

Only thing I find odd is the idea that we're using New 52 information as evidence for the rating of a Rebirth feat.

 

[PapiSavitar5025]

Only thing I find odd is the idea that we're using New 52 information as evidence for the rating of a Rebirth feat.

Could you be more specific please?

 

[CosmicWreck]

Could you be more specific please?

Superman's High 3A feat: he shook the Phantom Zone in the Rebirth issue of 2019. It was described as a universe of unknown size in New 52 2012.

And the infinite statement is in the f'-all era of 1999.

Cosmologically speaking, there's no evidence given that all three versions of the phantom zone are compatible here, or not outdated.

 

[Hellbeast]

Come on man, not you too. The disrespect for Aquaman is thirty-seven years old.

Agreed, he has consistent scaling with characters like Diana

then again I’m derailing a tad

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I have deleted all of the derailing posts now, and apologise again for any offence that I have caused here.



It was claimed that other staff members feel like I have made false accusations against or even mocked them, which was never remotely my intention. I have a hard time understanding why anybody would interpret any of my comments as the latter, but I am an unfiltered and likely overly suspicious social idiot, so I suppose that I may have worded something in ways that can be misunderstood.

Anyway, let's get back to discussing the validity of each of the feats here instead now please.

 

[KLOL506]

@LordTracer Would you be able to form a summary of the proposals?

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

I think op said he still is typing up reply's to the responses

 

[Antvasima]

"Earthquakes in the distance. The Phantom Zone trembles under the weight of this fight. Every creature and prisoner must have been alerted to this."
Superman isn't saying a portion of the Phantom Zone is trembling, he's saying that the Dimension is general is shaking because of their fight; no where does it even hint that it might be just the general area.

Good point, but the above statement still seems too unspecific regarding the affected area, and this feat also only applies for the Post-Rebirth incarnation of Superman.

Yes. The New Gods were unaffected by the events that transpired in Crisis on Infinite Earths. Their true forms -- let alone emanations -- don't change from Pre to Post Crisis.

Just because their memories remained this does not mean that they had the same power levels. If so, early post-Crisis characters, such as the Superman that was knocked out by a nuclear weapon, would not have been able to challenge them.

I am still of the opinion that we should wait and see where this thread goes, before we start deciding whether or not these characters have reliable feats of that level. As things currently stand, a majority of the staff have collectively decided that some of these feats are okay.

Plain sweeping yes or no votes are not reliable for this type of thread though, but I would greatly appreciate if somebody is willing to check through this entire thread to list all of the members here who have made feat-by-feat evaluations, so I can summon them and we can discuss the remaining feats.

I also want to note that your opinion can just-as-easily be applied to the Man of Steel. There are stories where Superman (or someone with his powers) has either overpowered the stronger members of the League, or someone else mows them down and Superman has to come in before the tide of the fight starts turning.

I do not remember that happening. I think that it was Dwayne McDuffie who once wrote a Justice League league story in which he addressed that the Flash is far more powerful than the rest of the Justice League, as he always has to drain Amazo of his extra speed before any battle involving him starts, as otherwise the entire League would be effortlessly slaughtered in a picosecond.

Didn't Golden-Age Superman go from barely being able to jump over buildings to traversing the Universe? My point isn't that he's inconsistent, it's that he goes through gigantic leaps in power as he ages. His few appearances since the golden days have him fighting characters on Silver-Age's level. Most notably the Anti-Monitor and Superboy Prime. In an effort to kill Superman, the Anti Monitor absorbed all of the energy from the Anti-Matter universe in an attempt to kill Golden-Age Supes, and the two Kryptonians present survive.

Also gives another wallop to Silver Age.

Well, from what I have been told or shown in combination, he went from being tier 4-C or so during his last Golden Age appearances to suddenly being able to match the Silver Age Superman when he showed up again. Regardless, I also thought that the Post-Crisis Superman briefly trading blows with him was extremely inconsistent with all of his explicit raw power feats before that happened, so I think that it likely boils down to everybody can fight everybody as usual.

 

[LordTracer]

@LordTracer Would you be able to form a summary of the proposals?

I can’t really give a better summary than these posts:

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5450798

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/page-4#post-5379794

The former lists the feats that have 3+ staff approvals and the latter lists every proposed feat, as well as some staff that haven’t yet given case-by-case evaluations.

 

[Antvasima]

I will have to check later, as I am busy right now.

I am fine with a 4-A upgrade for the characters that scale to the Sinestro Corps War Green Lanterns feat in any case, and might accept post-Rebirth Superman's Phantom Zone shaking feat.

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

I will have to check later, as I am busy right now.

I am fine with a 4-A upgrade for the characters that scale to the Sinestro Corps War Green Lanterns feat in any case, and might accept post-Rebirth Superman's Phantom Zone shaking feat.

I'm had a quick glance, most feats have more agrees/somewhat agree than disagrees

 

[KLOL506]

I can’t really give a better summary than these posts:

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5450798

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/page-4#post-5379794

The former lists the feats that have 3+ staff approvals and the latter lists every proposed feat, as well as some staff that haven’t yet given case-by-case evaluations.

Emirp seems to be missing, OP can vote on their own threads BTW

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

Emirp seems to be missing, OP can vote on their own threads BTW

I think he still needs time to finish his replys since he hasn't really commented a lot on the thread, but lets be patient

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

does anyone have emirps discord?

 

[PapiSavitar5025]

Good point, but the above statement still seems too unspecific regarding the affected area, and this feat also only applies for the Post-Rebirth incarnation of Superman.

I agree with you that it's rather unspecific, and would myself take the feat with a grain of salt, if Superman did not later state he had enough power to wipe the Phantom Zone off the map.

It only applying to Rebirth Superman is fine; I won't try and say it applies to Post Crisis too.

Just because their memories remained does not mean they had the same power levels. If so, early post-Crisis characters, such as the Superman that was knocked out by a nuclear weapon, would not have been able to challenge them.

If their memories are unchanged, than that means that the Emanations themselves have remained unchanged.

As what was proven prior in this very thread, Superman couldn't hold a finger up to oppose Darkseid early Post-Crisis; many encounters pre-Eradicator show Darkseid one-shotting Superman, or stomping him, with the most casual of efforts.

There's like, one feat of Post Crisis Superman stomping out Darkseid, and that was later shown to be DeSaad.

Plain sweeping yes or no votes are not reliable for this type of thread though, but I would greatly appreciate if somebody is willing to check through this entire thread to list all of the members here who have made feat-by-feat evaluations, so I can summon them and we can discuss the remaining feats.

Sorry if I wasn't clear enough, but I was talking about the staff-only votes that Firestorm counted in an earlier post.

I do not remember that happening. I think that it was Dwayne McDuffie who once wrote a Justice League league story in which he addressed that the Flash is far more powerful than the rest of the Justice League, as he always has to drain Amazo of his extra speed before any battle involving him starts, as otherwise the entire League would be effortlessly slaughtered in a picosecond.

I know there was one occasion where Batman -- with Superman's powers -- slapped away a (albeit holding-back) League like they were flies. Also another case where the Justice League had to resort to Kryptonite to hold down a sun-amped Superman.

My point being if Superman just has to sit in the sun for a few minutes and makes the entire League look like children, then he pretty much makes them redundant.

Well, from what I have been told or shown in combination, he went from being tier 4-C or so during his last Golden Age appearances to suddenly being able to match the Silver Age Superman when he showed up again. Regardless, I also thought that the Post-Crisis Superman briefly trading blows with him was extremely inconsistent with all of his explicit raw power feats before that happened, so I think that it likely boils down to everybody can fight everybody as usual.

I do admit, that there is definitely everybody can fight everybody somewhere in there, but I also think that with the consistency seen post-Golden Age, the argument gets more moot as these feats pop up.

Golden Age Superman has shown tanking one universal-level blast, and has tussled with Low 2-C or higher characters three separate times. (First fight with SA, finishing off the Anti Monitor, and one-shotting an admittedly caught off-guard Supes. But if he was infinitely weaker, his punch would've just bounced off.)

 

[ImmortalDread]

Emirp seems to be missing, OP can vote on their own threads BTW

I am wondering who will oppose his own thread

 

[KLOL506]

does anyone have emirps discord?

I do, he's definitely checking up on this thread, I can tell you that much

I am wondering who will oppose his own thread

I mean, he's just one vote in the long run

 

[KLOL506]

On behalf of Ant, I would like to apologize to all the staff members and normal members here who have suffered from any and all implications they have had to go through due to recent events and comments. He has expressed regret with his actions regarding this entire situation and any delays that may have resulted in all of this.

It's not much, I know. Sorry if the apology wasn't adequate.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I am admittedly extremely perfectionistic, and also rather paranoid, as well as a very unfiltered social idiot, who easily gets stressed out when dragged into long arguments while I am distracted by trying to handle several dozen other tasks at the same time.

In addition I have grown increasingly irritable from not having had sufficient amounts of free time to exercise regularly for the last weeks and being on a diet, which has increased my cortisol/stress hormone level significantly, I have been doing spiritual training exercises that have brought up parts of my personality that I had suppressed previously in order to be able to properly deal with them, and I have felt increasing frustration from having to deal with a massive number of in my view very exaggerated and unreasonable upgrade attempts for Marvel Comics and DC Comics, which I have extremely extensive knowledge about, for the last 8.5 years, while, from my perspective, I have mostly vainly tried to get others to understand that verses handled by many hundreds of different authors need a much higher degree of consistency for scaling than we use for most other verses in order to be reliable.

All of the above in combination lead to me being unfair to LordTracer and Emirp Sumitpo, and expressing myself in manners that were apparently misunderstood to imply a much more widespread distrust towards our community and staff than what was intended and is actually the case.

As such, as KLOL506 said, I greatly apologise for all of the problems and frustration that I caused for our community here, especially to LordTracer and Emirp. I am very self-aware of that I am far from perfect, much like almost everybody else, and it is unrealistic to expect me to be, but I will still continue to try to improve on my behaviour and work extremely hard to be of continuous help to this community and its members.

That said, I really am an extreme perfectionist who is obsessed with the accuracy and reliability for our wiki as a whole, as it has turned into my main life's work so far, and I perceive much of the entire point of its development as serving as an as reliable and accurate source of information as possible, so I extremely greatly appreciate all help with making this the main focus for our community, not just for these verses, but in general.

I think that is all. I hope that my apology is satisfactory and that our members will not have any remaining hurt feelings after this. I really do extremely greatly appreciate all of the members who have worked very hard with maintaining the proper running of this place, and with upholding and striving for the same ideals that I mentioned above and consider incredibly important for our work here, and given that this is supposed to be a friendly, fun, and tolerant community that brings people together in unity from all over the world, regardless of their cultural differences, I again greatly apologise for any damage that my personal character flaws and limitations have caused in this regard.

Big thanks to everybody in this community, and please take good care of yourselves.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Your apology is satisfactory.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the consideration and understanding.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with you that it's rather unspecific, and would myself take the feat with a grain of salt, if Superman did not later state he had enough power to wipe the Phantom Zone off the map.

It only applying to Rebirth Superman is fine; I won't try and say it applies to Post Crisis too.

I suppose that makes sense, but it is still just one occasion and does not scale to the post-Crisis continuity.

If their memories are unchanged, than that means that the Emanations themselves have remained unchanged.

As what was proven prior in this very thread, Superman couldn't hold a finger up to oppose Darkseid early Post-Crisis; many encounters pre-Eradicator show Darkseid one-shotting Superman, or stomping him, with the most casual of efforts.

There's like, one feat of Post Crisis Superman stomping out Darkseid, and that was later shown to be DeSaad.

Well, Superman stomping Darkseid happened during John Byrne's iconic Superman run, and Darkseid employed the Omega Effect against Superman at the time, which Desaad definitely cannot use, and Desaad is also nowhere near strong enough to slug it out with Superman, so another writer's attempt to offhandedly briefly retcon that event did not make any sense, and Dan Jurgens later clearly displayed Darkseid being outmatched by Doomsday as well.

Sorry if I wasn't clear enough, but I was talking about the staff-only votes that Firestorm counted in an earlier post.

Okay. However, I think that the sheer complexity of this revision requires it to only involve the people that have matter-of-fact evaluated it feat-by-feat though. A sweeping yes or no without examining the scans closely does not seem sufficiently reliable in this case.

I know there was one occasion where Batman -- with Superman's powers -- slapped away a (albeit holding-back) League like they were flies. Also another case where the Justice League had to resort to Kryptonite to hold down a sun-amped Superman.

Okay. Can you try to find the issue references please, and did this involve the Wally West Flash at his maximum power level?

My point being if Superman just has to sit in the sun for a few minutes and makes the entire League look like children, then he pretty much makes them redundant.

Well, that would imply that he can outclass the Flash as well, but I think that @Firestorm808 recently revised the Flash to have his upper power levels be rated as environmental destruction for the sake of consistency, whereas his raw power was otherwise comparable to the rest of the Justice League's heavy hitters, so maybe it works with that as a basis? I am not certain.

I do admit, that there is definitely everybody can fight everybody somewhere in there, but I also think that with the consistency seen post-Golden Age, the argument gets more moot as these feats pop up.

Golden Age Superman has shown tanking one universal-level blast, and has tussled with Low 2-C or higher characters three separate times. (First fight with SA, finishing off the Anti Monitor, and one-shotting an admittedly caught off-guard Supes. But if he was infinitely weaker, his punch would've just bounced off.)

Well, if he has withstood an explicitly universe level blast, that is obviously much more reliable than general matchup results, due to the everybody can fight everybody tendency that you seem to agree with me about.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Well, that would imply that he can outclass the Flash as well, but I think that @Firestorm808 recently revised the Flash to have his upper power levels be rated as environmental destruction for the sake of consistency, whereas his raw power was otherwose comparable to the rest of the Justice League's heavy hitters, so maybe it works with that as a basis? I am not certain.

Flash's feats of outclassing Superman only come when he's in certain situations where they're not holding back and absolutely going all out. Otherwise, Superman is normally superior to what Flash usually goes at.

And that was Confluctor who downgraded it.

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

Flash's feats of outclassing Superman only come when he's in certain situations where they're not holding back and absolutely going all out. Otherwise, Superman is normally superior to what Flash usually goes at.

And that was Confluctor who downgraded it.

they have returned, anyway is there going to be a response to any of the debunks on the thread?

 

[Vasco]

Okay. Can you try to find the issue references please, and did this involve the Wally West Flash at his maximum power level?

MT just compared Wally power of him being potentially more powerful than Superman and Wally in Rebirth also claiming it's a suicide for him to ever go into a 1 vs 1 fight with Superman immediately after he no diff a Vampire superman from another reality.

There's also full absorption speedforce savitar stomping superman later on( thought the battle wasn't concluded but it seemed superman didn't stand a chance) and Wally one shotting savitar afterwards.

It depends on how we want to Superman to Wally/Barry.

 

[PapiSavitar5025]

I suppose that makes sense, but it is still just one occasion and does not scale to the post-Crisis continuity.

This thread is about post-Rebirth and post-Crisis. I have already agreed with you that it does not scale to post-Crisis.

To make things easier for Firestorm, will you please input whether or not you fully agree, or somewhat agree with Superman shaking the Phantom Zone, and stating to destroy it.

Well, Superman stomping Darkseid happened during John Byrne's iconic Superman run, and Darkseid employed the Omega Effect against Superman at the time, which Desaad definitely cannot use, and Desaad is also nowhere near strong enough to slug it out with Superman, so another writer's attempt to offhandedly briefly retcon that event did not make any sense, and Dan Jurgens later clearly displayed Darkseid being outmatched by Doomsday as well.

I suppose that is true, but those are moments that I think we can happily dismiss as outliers; pre-DOS Superman has shown to be consistently below Darkseid on more than one occasion; it is only after his Eradicator Absorption that he begins to match or overpower Darkseid.

Okay. However, I think that the sheer complexity of this revision requires it to only involve the people that have matter-of-fact evaluated it feat-by-feat though. A sweeping yes or no without examining the scans closely does not seem sufficiently reliable in this case.

All respect given, that is a topic for Firestorm, and not myself; he is the one currently keeping track of the agreement/disagreement tally.

Okay. Can you try to find the issue references please, and did this involve the Wally West Flash at his maximum power level?

Well, that would imply that he can outclass the Flash as well, but I think that @Firestorm808 recently revised the Flash to have his upper power levels be rated as environmental destruction for the sake of consistency, whereas his raw power was otherwise comparable to the rest of the Justice League's heavy hitters, so maybe it works with that as a basis? I am not certain.

Wally West was not present during the Batman fight (that was just my point of Superman also being able to make the League look redundant, as you have brought up writer claims of the Flash doing the same).

I am unsure which comics these are from, and therefore which Flash this is, but I will post them anyways.

Flash and other members of the JLA lose to an Imperiex Probe, whereas Superman overpowers one on his own.
Flash and some of the stronger members of the JLA hold down Superman; Wonder Woman says that even all of them can't hold him for long.

Well, if he has withstood an explicitly universe level blast, that is obviously much more reliable than general matchup results, due to the everybody can fight everybody tendency that you seem to agree with me about.

I do agree with you to a point. As I have mentioned prior, the 'everybody can fight everybody' argument gets more and more moot the more consistent Golden-Age Superman fights against these Universal characters.

But anyways, I will repost the feat of Golden-Age Superman withstanding the universal blast for ease of access.

"I--I absorb... all the energy... my universe... provides... I... will... kill... you... even... If... I... must... die... myself..."

 

[Antvasima]

This thread is about post-Rebirth and post-Crisis. I have already agreed with you that it does not scale to post-Crisis.

To make things easier for Firestorm, will you please input whether or not you fully agree, or somewhat agree with Superman shaking the Phantom Zone, and stating to destroy it.

I somewhat agree, as it is not a very explicit feat, just plausible.

I suppose that is true, but those are moments that I think we can happily dismiss as outliers; pre-DOS Superman has shown to be consistently below Darkseid on more than one occasion; it is only after his Eradicator Absorption that he begins to match or overpower Darkseid.

Well, my concern is just that we can not reliably scale Post-Crisis Superman (who is one of my favourite characters mind you) to Pre-Crisis/Silver Age Superman, especially as it was first after his Our World at War upgrade that he was even portrayed as capable of moving Pluto on his own, and this was considered to be a very big deal at the time.

All respect given, that is a topic for Firestorm, and not myself; he is the one currently keeping track of the agreement/disagreement tally.

Okay.

Wally West was not present during the Batman fight (that was just my point of Superman also being able to make the League look redundant, as you have brought up writer claims of the Flash doing the same).

I am unsure which comics these are from, and therefore which Flash this is, but I will post them anyways.

Flash and other members of the JLA lose to an Imperiex Probe, whereas Superman overpowers one on his own.
Flash and some of the stronger members of the JLA hold down Superman; Wonder Woman says that even all of them can't hold him for long.

Okay. However, given Confluctor's revision of the Post-Crisis Wally West Flash, it seems like it is only under very special circumstances that he could power up to a beat up the Anti-Monitor degree, whereas his raw power level was usually portrayed as roughly comparable to Superman.

I do agree with you to a point. As I have mentioned prior, the 'everybody can fight everybody' argument gets more and more moot the more consistent Golden-Age Superman fights against these Universal characters.

Just a few such confrontations can probably be considered as everybody can fight everybody plot-induced stupidity outliers, as this is the self-admitted standard approach to superhero fights within these two settings. Explicit feats are much more reliable to gauge by.

But anyways, I will repost the feat of Golden-Age Superman withstanding the universal blast for ease of access.

"I--I absorb... all the energy... my universe... provides... I... will... kill... you... even... If... I... must... die... myself..."

Okay. I suppose that seems rather reliable, but the Anti-Monitor was technically still extremely damaged and weakened at the time as far as I recall, and the wording was a bit vague. I currently somewhat agree here as well though.

 

[AerrowStorm1]

I'd like to note that at least twice in the DCU in the Post Crisis timeline, they stated the top four Superheroes are Superman, Captain Marvel, Captain Atom and Wonder Woman.

Man of Steel #117 states the four of them are ""perhaps the greatest concentration of brute superpower ever assembled"

And Wonder Woman vol 2 #173 says the four are ""the most powerful heroes of this Earth or any other"

 

[PapiSavitar5025]

I somewhat agree, as it is not a very explicit feat, just plausible.

Alright. Thank you for hearing me out.

Well, my concern is just that we can not reliably scale Post-Crisis Superman (who is one of my favourite characters mind you) to Pre-Crisis/Silver Age Superman, especially as it was first after his Our World at War upgrade that he was even portrayed as capable of moving Pluto on his own, and this was considered to be a very big deal at the time.

I completely respect that mind set, and I believe where you're coming from. This topic, however, is for another time. The validity of these feats are the only things I'll be focusing on from here on out, and I would love to debate further about scaling when that topic is of relevancy.

Okay. However, given Confluctor's revision of the Post-Crisis Wally West Flash, it seems like it is only under very special circumstances that he could power up to a beat up the Anti-Monitor degree, whereas his raw power level was usually portrayed as roughly comparable to Superman.

Ah, okay then; that makes more sense.

Just a few such confrontations can probably be considered as everybody can fight everybody plot-induced stupidity outliers, as this is the self-admitted standard approach to superhero fights within these two settings. Explicit feats are much more reliable to gauge by.

Okay. I suppose that seems rather reliable, but the Anti-Monitor was technically still extremely damaged and weakened at the time as far as I recall, and the wording was a bit vague. I currently somewhat agree here as well though.

Alright, thank you Ant.

Just to clarify, you are somewhat agreeing with the following feats:
Superman's Phantom Zone Scaling,
Mr. Terrific's Statement of Wally West and Superman, and
Orion's Astro Force Feat

 

[PapiSavitar5025]

Just going to update the tally for firestorm with Ants input, Ant if you have anymore things you agree with please say them now so I can update the tally

Post Crisis​

Others​

• Infinite-Man's power can sculpt space-time, could destroy the Universe, including the timestream(Legionnaires Vol. 1 #18, September 1994)
  • Qawsedf234: Somewhat Agree -https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187
  • Eficiente: Disagree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5380593
  • LordTracer: Agree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5409787
  • Firestorm808: Somewhat Agree

Gods​

• Orion's Astro-Force is considered capable of stopping what can annihilate the cosmos(Jack Kirby's Fourth World Vol. 1 #4, June 1997)
  • LordTracer: Agree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5409787
  • Firestorm808: Agree | Full Power
  • Eficiente: Conditional Agree | 3-A | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5394496
  • Antvasima: Somewhat agree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/page-9#post-5513485

Superman​

• Superman briefly fights Time Trapper Superman-Prime. (Final Crisis: Legion of Three Worlds Vol. 1 #4, June 2009)
  • LordTracer: Agree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5409787
  • Qawsedf234: Somewhat Agree - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187
  • Firestorm808: Somewhat Agree
  • Eficiente: Unsure | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5394496 | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5398501
• Superman trades blows with Time Trapper Superman-Prime, but is overpowered. (Final Crisis: Legion of Three Worlds #5, September 2009)
  • LordTracer: Agree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5409787
  • Qawsedf234: Somewhat Agree - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187
  • Firestorm808: Somewhat Agree
  • Eficiente: Unsure | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5394496

Lanterns​

• Ion could remake the Universe(Green Lantern Vol. 3 #145, February 2002)
  • LordTracer: Agree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5409787
  • Firestorm808: Agree - Use as secondary support
  • Eficiente: Agree but with multiple power sources | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5385016

Rebirth​

• Mr Terrific, who was certain Wally had Infinite and Incalculable power, isn't certain he's more powerful than Superman, implying he considers Superman to also have Infinite Power (The Flash (Rebirth) #775, October 2021)
  • Qawsedf234: Somewhat Agree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187
  • LordTracer: Agree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5409787
  • Firestorm808: Somewhat Agree
  • Eficiente: Somewhat Agree - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5417389
  • Antvasima: Somewhat agree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/page-9#post-5513485

Superman​

• Superman states he could make the entire Phantom Zone cease to exist if he really put his head to it. (Superman Vol 5 #5 January 2019) and Superman shakes the Phantom Zone with one punch(Superman (2018) (Rebirth) #6, February 2019)
  • The Phantom Zone is an anti-Universe (Action Comics Vol. 2 #11, September 2012)
  • The Phantom Zone has been called Infinite (JLA Vol. 1 #36, December, 1999)
  • Qawsedf234: Agree - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187 | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-co...s-discussion-continuation.147384/post-5371320
  • Eficiente: Unsure - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5379269 | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5398501
  • LordTracer: Agree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5409787
  • Firestorm808: Somewhat Agree
  • Antvasima: Somewhat agree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/page-9#post-5513485
• Superman punches out Barbatos(Dark Nights: Death Metal Trinity Crisis, November 2020)
  • Qawsedf234: Somewhat Agree - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187
  • Firestorm808: Somewhat Agree
  • LordTracer: Agree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5409787
  • Eficiente: Disagree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5394496

Ant disagreed with both the Barbatos feat, and Infinite Man feat.

 

[Antvasima]

Alright. Thank you for hearing me out.

No problem.

I completely respect that mind set, and I believe where you're coming from. This topic, however, is for another time. The validity of these feats are the only things I'll be focusing on from here on out, and I would love to debate further about scaling when that topic is of relevancy.

Well, the general portrayals of intended power levels is highly important before we run away with scaling all characters to extremely rare and extreme outliers.

Ah, okay then; that makes more sense.

Thank you.

Alright, thank you Ant.

No problem.

Just to clarify, you are somewhat agreeing with the following feats:
Superman's Phantom Zone Scaling,

Yes.

Mr. Terrific's Statement of Wally West and Superman

If we compare Flash's generally used power level, yes, not his peak power level. It is outrageous to suggest that post-Crisis Superman was ever portrayed to have a high enough power level to bully the Anti-Monitor.

and
Orion's Astro Force Feat

I am uncertain about that one, as we do not know in what manner that Orion's Astro Force would be able to stop the threat, since it was just a statement without practical application.

 

[Antvasima]

Just going to update the tally for firestorm with Ants input, Ant if you have anymore things you agree with please say them now so I can update the tally

Okay. No problem.

Post Crisis​

Others​

• Infinite-Man's power can sculpt space-time, could destroy the Universe, including the timestream(Legionnaires Vol. 1 #18, September 1994)
  • Qawsedf234: Somewhat Agree -https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187
  • Eficiente: Disagree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5380593
  • LordTracer: Agree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5409787
  • Firestorm808: Somewhat Agree

I disagree, since nothing was stated about being able to recreate the entire universal continuum according to their whims, just the local galaxy, and even that was not clarified if it would be a very gradual feat. It doesn't seem explicit/self-evident/reliable enough for my tastes.

Gods​

• Orion's Astro-Force is considered capable of stopping what can annihilate the cosmos(Jack Kirby's Fourth World Vol. 1 #4, June 1997)
  • LordTracer: Agree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5409787
  • Firestorm808: Agree | Full Power
  • Eficiente: Conditional Agree | 3-A | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5394496
  • Antvasima: Somewhat agree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/page-9#post-5513485

I am currently uncertain, as it was an unproven statement with unclear specifications regarding how it would be accomplished.

Superman​

• Superman briefly fights Time Trapper Superman-Prime. (Final Crisis: Legion of Three Worlds Vol. 1 #4, June 2009)
  • LordTracer: Agree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5409787
  • Qawsedf234: Somewhat Agree - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187
  • Firestorm808: Somewhat Agree
  • Eficiente: Unsure | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5394496 | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5398501
• Superman trades blows with Time Trapper Superman-Prime, but is overpowered. (Final Crisis: Legion of Three Worlds #5, September 2009)
  • LordTracer: Agree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5409787
  • Qawsedf234: Somewhat Agree - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187
  • Firestorm808: Somewhat Agree
  • Eficiente: Unsure | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5394496

I think that has to be interpreted as a regular everybody can fight everybody in order to make western superhero stories work issue, so I disagree. As I mentioned above, it was perceived as a massive event when post-Crisis Superman was powered up so much that he could move Pluto during the Our Worlds at War event, whereas Superboy Prime could withstand a point blank universe-destroying explosion.

Lanterns​

• Ion could remake the Universe(Green Lantern Vol. 3 #145, February 2002)
  • LordTracer: Agree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5409787
  • Firestorm808: Agree - Use as secondary support
  • Eficiente: Agree but with multiple power sources | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5385016

It was an unproven statement, and we do not know if it would have been a gradual feat, but Kyle was powered up far beyond the rest of the Justice League during the first time he took the name Ion, which was unrelated to the entity of the same name at the time.

Rebirth​

• Mr Terrific, who was certain Wally had Infinite and Incalculable power, isn't certain he's more powerful than Superman, implying he considers Superman to also have Infinite Power (The Flash (Rebirth) #775, October 2021)
  • Qawsedf234: Somewhat Agree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187
  • LordTracer: Agree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5409787
  • Firestorm808: Somewhat Agree
  • Eficiente: Somewhat Agree - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5417389
  • Antvasima: Somewhat agree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/page-9#post-5513485

Yes, but it should only scale to regular Wally, who we consider to be tier 4-B, not "let's bully the Anti-Monitor" peak Wally.

Superman​

• Superman states he could make the entire Phantom Zone cease to exist if he really put his head to it. (Superman Vol 5 #5 January 2019) and Superman shakes the Phantom Zone with one punch(Superman (2018) (Rebirth) #6, February 2019)
  • The Phantom Zone is an anti-Universe (Action Comics Vol. 2 #11, September 2012)
  • The Phantom Zone has been called Infinite (JLA Vol. 1 #36, December, 1999)
  • Qawsedf234: Agree - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187 | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-co...s-discussion-continuation.147384/post-5371320
  • Eficiente: Unsure - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5379269 | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5398501
  • LordTracer: Agree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5409787
  • Firestorm808: Somewhat Agree
  • Antvasima: Somewhat agree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/page-9#post-5513485

Yes, I somewhat agree, but it is not sufficient with one occasion in order to upgrade all the herald-level characters.

• Superman punches out Barbatos(Dark Nights: Death Metal Trinity Crisis, November 2020)
  • Qawsedf234: Somewhat Agree - https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5367187
  • Firestorm808: Somewhat Agree
  • LordTracer: Agree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5409787
  • Eficiente: Disagree | https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5394496

I disagree. He was apparently bound with 10th Metal chains at the time, which work like superpowered Kryptonite against him, and Superman could not do anything against Barbatos without this crutch during the preceding Metal event.

 

[Antvasima]

In any case, shouldn't somebody use that the Green Lantern Corps collectively contained a galaxy-destroying explosion feat to upgrade the post-Crisis herald level characters to 4-A at the end of that continuity instead?

In the Rebirth era, Supergirl also withstood force sufficient to destroy several star systems according to scans that I was shown in our general DC Comics discussion thread, so that also seems to make reasonable sense in combination.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

In any case, shouldn't somebody use that the Green Lantern Corps collectively contained a galaxy-destroying explosion feat to upgrade the post-Crisis herald level characters to 4-A at the end of that continuity instead?

Why would it scale individually? It was a collective effort and green lanterns power exponentially increases when done in group.

In the Rebirth era, Supergirl also withstood force sufficient to destroy several star systems according to scans that I was shown in our general DC Comics discussion thread, so that also seems to make reasonable sense in combination.

Scans?