DC Comics - The Legendary DC Heralds Upgrade

[Firestorm808]

Sorry. Will go over things later today.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you very much for helping out. It is greatly appreciated.

 

[LordTracer]

When lives are on the line, when they have to ask for back-up, when it's a fight against the clock to win, how do we justify these situations as holding back?

Then let me ask for the third time now, can you provide examples of this, or specific characters that you’re referring to? I can’t exactly answer your question when you’re not being specific.

 

[Deagonx]

Then let me ask for the third time now, can you provide examples of this, or specific characters that you’re referring to? I can’t exactly answer your question when you’re not being specific.

Sure. Here's a little compilation of examples.

DC High Tiers VS Celestial Bodies

 

[LordTracer]

Sure. Here's a little compilation of examples.

DC High Tiers VS Celestial Bodies

First off, I’d appreciate if you could include the sources of all these feats, and replace the cropped scans with the full page.

Second off, some of these aren’t even stat-related anti-feats, like Superman saying the sun is hotter than his heat vision.

Third off, if we took all of those as legitimately being the maximum level of power that these characters could output, they’d be below Tier 5, and we have a significant amount of feats and calcs that contradict that.

 

[AerrowStorm1]

I would note for Orion, he SUCCEEDED in stopping the Oblivion bomb. When we cut back to Orion after a brief check in with the humans on Earth (who feel Orion succeed) and the other gods, we see he is fine and had stopped the bomb, then blitzes the spacecraft around him. We then cut to New Genesis and they're celebrating him successfully reversing the Oblivion bomb.

The comic (Jack Kirby's Fourth World vol 1 #5) is super clear on him actually having done it.

 

[Deagonx]

First off, I’d appreciate if you could include the sources of all these feats, and replace the cropped scans with the full page.

Second off, some of these aren’t even stat-related anti-feats, like Superman saying the sun is hotter than his heat vision.

Third off, if we took all of those as legitimately being the maximum level of power that these characters could output, they’d be below Tier 5, and we have a significant amount of feats and calcs that contradict that.

Okay, so why did you ask me for examples if your answer was going to be "none of it counts because we have feats and calcs higher than that?

My point is, stars and planets are very regularly portrayed as a herculean obstacle and this does not track with the notion of them being universal. We can't explain this with holding back or variable power because the context disallows it in many of these scans.

And to be honest, these feats are on the higher end of how theyre usually portrayed. So how do we reconcile them with the handful of possible tier 3 or tier 2 scans? Why do we decide high is better than low, if we have more of low than high?

 

[Hasty12345]

It also doesn’t track with them being tier 4 either, but I guess we just don’t want heralds to be “too high”, just high enough to shut supporters up

 

[Deagonx]

It also doesn’t track with them being tier 4 either, but I guess we just don’t want heralds to be “too high”, just high enough to shut supporters up

I'm not even sure why they're tier 4. Hal's page says it's from scaling to Superman. Superman page says its from scaling to Hal. Both scale to Cyborg Superman, but his page just says he scales to Superman.

 

[LordTracer]

Okay, so why did you ask me for examples if your answer was going to be "none of it counts because we have feats and calcs higher than that?

I wanted examples of characters that can supposedly contend with Superman-like characters in situations where they wouldn’t be holding back. You said this initially:

Many times against people whom he has no reason to hold back against, and reasons to not hold back against. My point is not to say that he must not be that powerful because he can't kill them, but rather, there are many times where he is clearly injured, down for the count, extremely distressed about how the fight is going, against opponents who -- should we accept the claim that he is tier 2 -- are in essence no greater of a threat to him than I am.

And this is what I wanted you to provide examples of. Not unsourced anti-feats that would make them even lower than Tier 5 if they were taken at face value.

 

[Keeweed]

“Not unsourced anti-feats that would make them even lower than Tier 5 if they were taken at face value.”

I agree with the upgrades, but can you give examples of why these anti feats would be stupid to take at face value. If these anti feats turn out to be legitimate, it would be over 20 anti feats against anything above tier 5 versus the 8 or so feats we are arguing makes them tier 2 or 3. So I think it would be a good idea to explain why they are bad rather than just saying there are bad without evidence.

Cause I agree with the upgrades, I just think your defense isn’t really a defense and it sounds a bit backhanded to me (hopefully that way of saying it doesn’t come off as rude, that’s not what I mean).

Edit: If this is a staff only thread, sorry for commenting, I don’t know if it is one or not.

 

[LordTracer]

I agree with the upgrades, but can you give examples of why these anti feats would be stupid to take at face value.

I didn’t even say that though? I said they weren’t what I was asking for and that they were unsourced.

 

[Deagonx]

And this is what I wanted you to provide examples of

I figured this would be better as it removes the subjective aspect of their opponent. The predictable response to any instance of a fight is "their opponent is actually that strong" or "I don't see why they couldn't have been holding back" which is a whole can of subjective worms that is best left unopened.

Here we have many very clear statements where a planetary feat (ish, as moving isn't the same as destroying) is presented as extremely difficult to impossible alone.

Not unsourced anti-feats that would make them even lower than Tier 5 if they were taken at face value.

I can get on sourcing them once I'm on my computer later.

 

[Keeweed]

I didn’t even say that though? I said they weren’t what I was asking for and that they were unsourced.

I guess, to phrase my comment better than, I just feel like you comments came off kinda dismissive. I get that wasn’t the intent and other people will likely see it differently. But I personally felt your comments could have been worded much differently.

Though, I understand your position now much better, and I don’t want to keep anything held up. So, I’ll be watching this thread, but I’ll likely won’t comment anymore. Have a great night (or day for you, it’s night where I live).

 

[Veronica]

I figured this would be better as it removes the subjective aspect of their opponent. The predictable response to any instance of a fight is "their opponent is actually that strong" or "I don't see why they couldn't have been holding back" which is a whole can of subjective worms that is best left unopened.

Here we have many very clear statements where a planetary feat (ish, as moving isn't the same as destroying) is presented as extremely difficult to impossible alone.

I can get on sourcing them once I'm on my computer later.

Post-Crisis Superman is consistently multi-continental to moon level

 

[AerrowStorm1]

Sure. Here's a little compilation of examples.

DC High Tiers VS Celestial Bodies

So, some of these are Pre-DOS, which we already know is lower. Specifically, this one, this one, this one, and this one

This one is SLIIIIGHLY out of context (Green Lantern vol 3 (1990) #101). It's retelling the End of Final Night, when Hal ate a Sun Eater and reignited the sun (Final Night #4). The implication is it's the Sun Eater's draining that's killing him, not reigniting the sun. That implication is later proven correct, as Parallax Hal was explicitly stated to be far more powerful than star level and only needed a small spark of his power to reignite the sun (Last Will and Testament of Hal Jordan)

This one's out of context, they're not moving the moon, they're dismantling Cyberion Station the object while trying to keep the moon from moving. It's important to note Cyberion station was MUCH larger than the natural moon. They're not just trying to push it together, but actively fighting it's weapons systems, binding it and trying to keep the moon from destabilizing. (JLA/Titans).

TThis one is just a low showing as SBP is one of the heroes and he has many feats of solo moving planets. Black Adam and Sinestro are also on the team and they moved the moon together casually after Ultraman moved it, and Sinestro by himself blew up a planet. Superman's also there and even if we ignore author's words that he can move Earth and Jupiter like Mr. Majestic, he's on panel been able to slow down and stop a ship that was going to break the earth in two and destroyed a planet while weakened by jumping off it really hard. ( Dark Crisis: Death Metal#5)

This one's a bit of an outlier, as Jessica by herself, as a rookie with low willpower (Willpower 38%) was supporting a mass of 1.5 x10^23kg, when the moon weighs 7.3 x 10^22 kg

This one is cropped. Here's the full page While Lois says he can't do it, Clark believes he could. Neither is proven correct or incorrect as the planet has Ion engines to help. Which seems fair except.....he literally does it, having to use his strength and heat vision to power the engines to successfully move it. This is a terrible anti-feat to use as he just moved a planet larger than Jupiter with mega gravity using his strength and heat vision while weakened. (Superman vol 2 "1987" #167). In addition, if we're going to accept Lois' statement he can't, we'd also have to accept the numerous statements that he can from the man himself.

This one is unfair as they're not just pulling the Earth, they're actively playing tug of war with the planet against Starbreaker. It's also shown Superman's doing the pulling and Hal's just forming a construct, as well as Starbreaker's pull getting stronger as he feeds on emotion and they managed to do it when his power weakened and restore it. This is less a feat against moving the planet and more moving it against Starbreaker.. (Justice League of America v2 (2006) #29)

This one is from before Superman merged back with pre-Flashpoint Superman and was still weakened because of that. Also, for some reason for a short time in Post Flashpoint and Rebirth, the center of the Earth disrupted their powers, but that no longer seems to be a thing

This one is pure silliness, as Superman literally fought Ulysses and the Devourer and beat him before this comic, when Ulysses had blown up a planet and had the energy of a dead planet, and the Devourer had eaten countless planets.

This one is mostly true. They had to drag the moon out of orbit, hyperacclereate it hard enough to set it ablaze, then pull it back out and back into orbit in seconds. (JLA #58)

This one is kind of out of context, as right before they had to pull the Earth, they had just come back from the Dead, the villain notes they're still weak and won't regain their full strength in time to stop them and Superman specifically was trying to get back to full power. (JLA #45)

This one is semi-true. They're not only holding the Earth together but literally re-establishing gravity and a breathable atmosphere against the Mxy twins powers. (Adventures of Superman 619)

This one is just a low showing. It also makes no sense as Superman himself has been to the core of the planet both pre-Eradicator and post and beaten people who have also survived being in the core.

This one is out of context. They had slowed the ship down from Planet eradicating moving at near lightspeed. This is AFTER a fight with the Doomslayer, and several Doomsdays AND dealing with Void Child Lex. He was already noting he was tired before this, having been KO'd and then beaten up by Void-Child Lex before he even entered and passing out as soon as he entered the place. (the original scan is from Action Comics 902, context from Action comics 900 and 901)

This one's wonky. It's not just that the planet was busted and torn apart, but its worldspirit was removed, which was connected to all the heroes powers and was draining them all (Trinity vol 1 (2006) #49). Keep in mind, the guy who just did that could devastate galaxies. I personally wouldn't use this one because of how wonky it is.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

Sure. Here's a little compilation of examples.

DC High Tiers VS Celestial Bodies

isn`t this from comicvine?

 

[AerrowStorm1]

Oh, forgot this one's from Superman Red and Blue, and while it references a Pre-Crisis story, I don't think it's canon

 

[Deagonx]

So, some of these are Pre-DOS, which we already know is lower. Specifically, this one, this one, this one, and this one

This one is SLIIIIGHLY out of context (Green Lantern vol 3 (1990) #101). It's retelling the End of Final Night, when Hal ate a Sun Eater and reignited the sun (Final Night #4). The implication is it's the Sun Eater's draining that's killing him, not reigniting the sun. That implication is later proven correct, as Parallax Hal was explicitly stated to be far more powerful than star level and only needed a small spark of his power to reignite the sun (Last Will and Testament of Hal Jordan)

This one's out of context, they're not moving the moon, they're dismantling Cyberion Station the object while trying to keep the moon from moving. It's important to note Cyberion station was MUCH larger than the natural moon. They're not just trying to push it together, but actively fighting it's weapons systems, binding it and trying to keep the moon from destabilizing. (JLA/Titans).

TThis one is just a low showing as SBP is one of the heroes and he has many feats of solo moving planets. Black Adam and Sinestro are also on the team and they moved the moon together casually after Ultraman moved it, and Sinestro by himself blew up a planet. Superman's also there and even if we ignore author's words that he can move Earth and Jupiter like Mr. Majestic, he's on panel been able to slow down and stop a ship that was going to break the earth in two and destroyed a planet while weakened by jumping off it really hard. ( Dark Crisis: Death Metal#5)

This one's a bit of an outlier, as Jessica by herself, as a rookie with low willpower (Willpower 38%) was supporting a mass of 1.5 x10^23kg, when the moon weighs 7.3 x 10^22 kg

This one is cropped. Here's the full page While Lois says he can't do it, Clark believes he could. Neither is proven correct or incorrect as the planet has Ion engines to help. Which seems fair except.....he literally does it, having to use his strength and heat vision to power the engines to successfully move it. This is a terrible anti-feat to use as he just moved a planet larger than Jupiter with mega gravity using his strength and heat vision while weakened. (Superman vol 2 "1987" #167). In addition, if we're going to accept Lois' statement he can't, we'd also have to accept the numerous statements that he can from the man himself.

This one is unfair as they're not just pulling the Earth, they're actively playing tug of war with the planet against Starbreaker. It's also shown Superman's doing the pulling and Hal's just forming a construct, as well as Starbreaker's pull getting stronger as he feeds on emotion and they managed to do it when his power weakened and restore it. This is less a feat against moving the planet and more moving it against Starbreaker.. (Justice League of America v2 (2006) #29)

This one is from before Superman merged back with pre-Flashpoint Superman and was still weakened because of that. Also, for some reason for a short time in Post Flashpoint and Rebirth, the center of the Earth disrupted their powers, but that no longer seems to be a thing

This one is pure silliness, as Superman literally fought Ulysses and the Devourer and beat him before this comic, when Ulysses had blown up a planet and had the energy of a dead planet, and the Devourer had eaten countless planets.

This one is mostly true. They had to drag the moon out of orbit, hyperacclereate it hard enough to set it ablaze, then pull it back out and back into orbit in seconds. (JLA #58)

This one is kind of out of context, as right before they had to pull the Earth, they had just come back from the Dead, the villain notes they're still weak and won't regain their full strength in time to stop them and Superman specifically was trying to get back to full power. (JLA #45)

This one is semi-true. They're not only holding the Earth together but literally re-establishing gravity and a breathable atmosphere against the Mxy twins powers. (Adventures of Superman 619)

This one is just a low showing. It also makes no sense as Superman himself has been to the core of the planet both pre-Eradicator and post and beaten people who have also survived being in the core.

This one is out of context. They had slowed the ship down from Planet eradicating moving at near lightspeed. This is AFTER a fight with the Doomslayer, and several Doomsdays AND dealing with Void Child Lex. He was already noting he was tired before this, having been KO'd and then beaten up by Void-Child Lex before he even entered and passing out as soon as he entered the place. (the original scan is from Action Comics 902, context from Action comics 900 and 901)

This one's wonky. It's not just that the planet was busted and torn apart, but its worldspirit was removed, which was connected to all the heroes powers and was draining them all (Trinity vol 1 (2006) #49). Keep in mind, the guy who just did that could devastate galaxies. I personally wouldn't use this one because of how wonky it is.

Honestly. All the scans you added to the discussion leave me feeling even more convinced that the most consistent interpretation of these characters is far closer to planetary than universal.

 

[DaReaperMan]

You know, I love how there's this big discussion... that's ****** derailing if I'm not wrong!

 

[KLOL506]

Can we just drop the discussions of "outliers" and focus on the cosmology and whether or not the feats are actually Tier 3/2?

 

[AerrowStorm1]

You know, I love how there's this big discussion... that's ****** derailing if I'm not wrong!

My apologies.

Anyway, back to what I mentioned. Orion's Astro-Force feat is shown to have worked. It's partially off panel, but the humans on Earth all feel it work and etc.

I would note for Orion, he SUCCEEDED in stopping the Oblivion bomb. When we cut back to Orion after a brief check in with the humans on Earth (who feel Orion succeed) and the other gods, we see he is fine and had stopped the bomb, then blitzes the spacecraft around him. We then cut to New Genesis and they're celebrating him successfully reversing the Oblivion bomb.

The comic (Jack Kirby's Fourth World vol 1 #5) is super clear on him actually having done it.

 

[Vasco]

Infinite-Man's power can sculpt space-time, could destroy the Universe, including the timestream(Legionnaires Vol. 1 #18, September 1994)

Somewhat Agree.

Orion's Astro-Force is considered capable of stopping what can annihilate the cosmos(Jack Kirby's Fourth World Vol. 1 #4, June 1997)

I would note for Orion, he SUCCEEDED in stopping the Oblivion bomb. When we cut back to Orion after a brief check in with the humans on Earth (who feel Orion succeed) and the other gods, we see he is fine and had stopped the bomb, then blitzes the spacecraft around him. We then cut to New Genesis and they're celebrating him successfully reversing the Oblivion bomb.

The comic (Jack Kirby's Fourth World vol 1 #5) is super clear on him actually having done it.

This convinced me, so agree.

Superman briefly fights Time Trapper Superman-Prime. (Final Crisis: Legion of Three Worlds Vol. 1 #4, June 2009)

Superman trades blows with Time Trapper Superman-Prime, but is overpowered. (Final Crisis: Legion of Three Worlds #5, September 2009)

The same thing but Agree.

Ion could remake the Universe(Green Lantern Vol. 3 #145, February 2002)

Agree.

Mr Terrific, who was certain Wally had Infinite and Incalculable power, isn't certain he's more powerful than Superman, implying he considers Superman to also have Infinite Power (The Flash (Rebirth) #775, October 2021)

Agree mainly to wally even stating so himself after defeating a Vampire superman from another reality.

Superman states he could make the entire Phantom Zone cease to exist if he really put his head to it. (Superman Vol 5 #5 January 2019) and Superman shakes the Phantom Zone with one punch(Superman (2018) (Rebirth) #6, February 2019)

Straightforward, Agreed.

I still think this feat shouldn't be used, like i say Barbatos was chained and we don't see how much he was affect by Superman punch.

Disagree.

 

[Antvasima]

Just a note that the feats that Deagonx linked to weren't anti-feats. They were considerably higher than the level that these characters were usually displayed at. The post-Crisis herald-level characters really were featured between tiers 7-B and High 4-C depending on the writer according to the stories that I recall, and Low 2-C is literally infinitely higher than that scale, and as such not remotely reliable, especially with so extremely few actual feats, and our (admittedly insufficiently strict) rules for Marvel Comics and DC Comics already state that we should be very careful with scaling from characters with much higher established scales of power.

As for scaling from Superboy Prime, he was all over the place power-wise, and at his temporarily powered-up peak (as seen by his adult form at the time) he also managed to beat Monarch, who an assembly of alternate versions of Superman, including Ultraman, could do nothing against, if I remember correctly. It is far too inconsistent with the previously portrayed massive power gap between him and post-Crisis Superman to be reliable.

 

[Antvasima]

Can we just drop the discussions of "outliers" and focus on the cosmology and whether or not the feats are actually Tier 3/2?

If there are hundreds or likely thousands of feats of an infinitely lower scale for these characters, I do think that it is an extremely valid interpretation to consider extremely rare and few feats over the 26 years period of time that the post-Crisis era lasted as outliers, so my apologies, but no. They genuinely are enormous outliers, and only the Orion feat even seems reasonably reliable in this regard.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

If there are hundreds or likely thousands of feats of an infinitely lower scale for these characters, I do think that it is an extremely valid interpretation to consider extremely rare and few feats over the 26 years period of time that the post-Crisis era lasted as outliers, so my apologies, but no. They genuinely are enormous outliers, and only the Orion feat even seems reasonably reliable in this regard.

Because that is literally what we are not trying to discuss right now? If you want a downgrade from 4-B, go make another thread. This is derailing.

 

[Deagonx]

I don't understand how it's derailing? It's about the characters the CRT is about and it's valid counter evidence. Even if a few of these feats are agreed upon we have to consider the possibility of them being outliers

 

[LordTracer]

valid counter evidence

Um- the majority of them were debunked here, so I don’t know what valid counter evidence you’re talking about.

 

[Deagonx]

On that note, I am genuinely lost as to what the justification for their current Tier 4-B is. Everyone's page just links to another person's page?

Superman: Solar System level at peak (Comparable to Hal Jordan. Can damage characters with his level of durability, such as Doomsday and Cyborg Superman. Comparable to Alan Scott.)

Hal Jordan: Solar System level (A consistent match for Cyborg Superman and should be comparable to the real Superman)

Cyborg Superman: Solar System level (Has been shown as comparable to Superman several times. Stated to have power that rivals that of Superman.)

Doomsday: Solar System level at peak (During Hunter/Prey, he grew powerful enough to overpower Darkseid. Later portrayed as at least comparable[8], if not superior to Superman)

Darkseid: Solar System level when operating through avatars (Comparable to Post-Crisis Superman)

Ahh, okay, finally I found it.

Alan Scott: Solar System level (He was said to have enough energy to destroy the solar system from Earth while he was dying)

So the scaling chain goes Superman=Hal Jordan=Cyborg Superman=Superman, and Superman=Doomsday=Darkseid=Superman? How did that ever pass? The only actual source of this Tier 4 scaling is Alan Scott, based on a single statement that his death would cause a meltdown that "could take out the solar system?"

This is absolutely ridiculous. Everyone has this completely arbitrary amp based on a single statement of possibility regarding Alan Scott's death causing a meltdown. We have way too much circular scaling here. At the absolute bare minimum, Superman's scaling to Hal, Doomsday, and Cyborg needs to be removed, because they all literally just scale back to Superman. Who scales to Alan Scott for reasons that aren't even actually linked in his profile.

 

[Deagonx]

Um- the majority of them were debunked here, so I don’t know what valid counter evidence you’re talking about.

No, they weren't. The majority of them were confirmed, or at best had more evidence provided that spoke to a slightly higher rating than what was in the scan, which is more counter evidence against them being universal (or even Solar System tier), not less, and certainly not a debunk.

The Cyberion Station might have been bigger than the moon, but you can literally see visually that it's not that much bigger, which means it's still sub planetary.

The SBP one was called a "low showing" by backing it up with planetary feats, which is fine, I don't deny these characters being planetary, but all of this contributes to planetary, not universal.

Jessica's feat was called an outlier because of a calc showing she moved something 10x heavier than the moon. That's still planetary at best, so that's fine.

The "Superman can't move a planet" statement was contended by saying Clark thinks he can do it, but the fact that it's even a discussion is damning. It was backed up later by scans of him... again, performing planetary feats.

Et cetera, et cetera. Point being, while a couple of them had context that genuinely contradicted them, many of them were accepted as being true or, at best, slightly lower than some planetary feats they've accomplished. All of this speaks very strongly to the fact that planetary feats are considered very impressive to these characters, which makes the notion of them being universal based on vague statements like "said he could destroy the phantom zone" or "said to have infinite power" less plausible, IMO.

 

[LordTracer]

The "Superman can't move a planet" statement was contended by saying Clark thinks he can do it, but the fact that it's even a discussion is damning.

No… it’s not? Lmao? It’s just Lois not knowing Clark’s capabilities and also a great reason why you shouldn’t crop scans.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

On that note, I am genuinely lost as to what the justification for their current Tier 4-B is. Everyone's page just links to another person's page?

Superman: Solar System level at peak (Comparable to Hal Jordan. Can damage characters with his level of durability, such as Doomsday and Cyborg Superman. Comparable to Alan Scott.)

Hal Jordan: Solar System level (A consistent match for Cyborg Superman and should be comparable to the real Superman)

Cyborg Superman: Solar System level (Has been shown as comparable to Superman several times. Stated to have power that rivals that of Superman.)

Doomsday: Solar System level at peak (During Hunter/Prey, he grew powerful enough to overpower Darkseid. Later portrayed as at least comparable[8], if not superior to Superman)

Darkseid: Solar System level when operating through avatars (Comparable to Post-Crisis Superman)

Ahh, okay, finally I found it.

Alan Scott: Solar System level (He was said to have enough energy to destroy the solar system from Earth while he was dying)

So the scaling chain goes Superman=Hal Jordan=Cyborg Superman=Superman, and Superman=Doomsday=Darkseid=Superman? How did that ever pass? The only actual source of this Tier 4 scaling is Alan Scott, based on a single statement that his death would cause a meltdown that "could take out the solar system?"

This is absolutely ridiculous. Everyone has this completely arbitrary amp based on a single statement of possibility regarding Alan Scott's death causing a meltdown. We have way too much circular scaling here. At the absolute bare minimum, Superman's scaling to Hal, Doomsday, and Cyborg needs to be removed, because they all literally just scale back to Superman. Who scales to Alan Scott for reasons that aren't even actually linked in his profile.

Well, the other piece of justification is Superman's durability.

Solar System level at peak (Withstood the electromagnetic shockwave of an explosion equivalent to 50 Keplar Supernovas while severely weakened by red sun radiation[118])

 

[LordTracer]

So the scaling chain goes Superman=Hal Jordan=Cyborg Superman=Superman, and Superman=Doomsday=Darkseid=Superman? How did that ever pass? The only actual source of this Tier 4 scaling is Alan Scott, based on a single statement that his death would cause a meltdown that "could take out the solar system?"

Because there used to be more 4-B feats in circulation, namely the Infinite Mass Punch and Superman pushing the sun (or the solar system, it’s been so long that I don’t remember) at speeds that warranted a 4-B rating.

Also the profiles are old and shit

 

[Deagonx]

No… it’s not? Lmao? It’s just Lois not knowing Clark’s capabilities and also a great reason why you shouldn’t crop scans.

Why did you hyperfixate on this single part of my response? And I really don't see the need for this kind of snarky tone.

If you actually read the full scan, there is absolutely nothing indicating that Superman thinks he can do this.

Lois: You can't move a planet.
Superman: What makes you think I can't? I'm not doing this alone, there are ion engines. I have to try.

Superman isn't even sure he can do it.

Because there used to be more 4-B feats in circulation, namely the Infinite Mass Punch and Superman pushing the sun (or the solar system, it’s been so long that I don’t remember) at speeds that warranted a 4-B rating.

If they were debunked or rejected then the characters should get downgraded. If they weren't, they should be re-included in the profile. There are plenty of planetary feats available, we don't need to over-tier the characters based on a single statement and chain-scaling.

 

[Deagonx]

Well, the other piece of justification is Superman's durability.

That should definitely get removed. A shockwave doesn't have the full power of an explosion and Clark is clearly flying in the opposite direction as fast as possible to avoid the deadly radiation, which is said will kill him instantly.

 

[Antvasima]

I mostly strongly agree with Deagonx. These characters were almost consistently portrayed as at most different degrees of tier 5.

The only exceptions that I recall from the top of my head were when Kyle Rayner at absolute peak exertion briefly contained a supernova during "DC: One Million" issue #5, the Alan Scott statement, the Flash's "infinite mass punch", and maybe Superman withstanding a rather small part of an explosion with the power of 50 supernovas after throwing away the bomb that generated it as hard as he could.

I do not think that these are sufficiently monstrous and insane outliers to completely disregard them, so tier High 4-C or possibly even 4-B is probably fine, but a single tier 3-A or possibly Low 2-C feat among thousands of literally infinitely lower feats certainly is.

I should also note that Superboy Prime was explicitly massively powered up to Superman Prime during the Countdown event when he defeated Monarch (who, again, dozens of characters equal or superior to Superman in raw power were shown to be completely helpless against) and withstood a Low 2-C explosion. He was not usually nearly that powerful.

 

[LordTracer]

Why did you hyperfixate on this single part of my response? And I really don't see the need for this kind of snarky tone.

Because I disagreed with it the most? And I’m not trying to be snarky, I just found it funny (I do think that cropping scans comes off as disingenuous though, so yeah, don’t do that).

If they were debunked or rejected then the characters should get downgraded. If they weren't, they should be re-included in the profile. There are plenty of planetary feats available, we don't need to over-tier the characters based on a single statement and chain-scaling.

I’m well aware of this, I’ve said that they have more feats putting them at High 5-A than 4-B multiple times. Also the Infinite Mass Punch is still used, as you can see on Flash‘s profile.

 

[Deagonx]

(I do think that cropping scans comes off as disingenuous though, so yeah, don’t do that).

I didn't crop it myself.

 

[Antvasima]

Monarch completely outclassing many Superman-level characters at the same time (repeatedly as far as I recall), with them being unable to harm him in the slighest, happened in "Countdown: Arena" by the way.

Countdown: Arena Vol 1

Countdown: Arena is a four-issue weekly comic book series that ties into events from it's parent weekly series Countdown. It features battles between multiversal counterparts of Batman, Superman, Captain Atom and other denizens of the recreated multiverse. Countdown: Arena #1 Countdown: Arena #2...

dc.fandom.com

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/scale_medium/11117/111178634/6404124-no%20sells%20attacks%20from%20two%20supermen%20and%20three%20wonder%20women%28countdown%20arena%203%29.jpg

And a severely powered-up Superboy Prime defeated Monarch in "Countdown to Final Crisis" issue #13.

Countdown to Final Crisis Vol 1 13

"Abandon All Hope": While the Challengers from Beyond and the Myrmidons fight against the Monitors, Monarch battles against Superboy-Prime. Superboy is thrown into a frenzy now that he has finally found his "perfect Earth" only to see it torn apart by war. De I'll kill you! I'll kill you to...

dc.fandom.com

 

[Qawsedf234]

If the statement is "Consistently these characters aren't that strong", that's a fair assessment. No comic character is anywhere close to where we rate them consistently and everyone has low showings. But to dismiss it because everyone would scale to Tier 3/2 doesn't work imo. Like with Marvel we wouldn't scale every third villain to Superman or Wonder Woman's full strength, for the same reason why we don't scale everyone to Thor's full strength.

Monarch completely outclassing many Superman-level characters at the same time (repeatedly as far as I recall),

Ehhh, the Supermen that Monarch fought were all demonstrably much weaker than Post-Crisis Superman. Red Son Superman has nothing close to what Post-Crisis Superman and Millerverse Superman's best showings match what Post-Crisis Superman can accidentally do when hitting someone else.

don't understand how it's derailing?

The thread itself is "These characters have Tier 3 and 2 feats, so should be Tier 3 and 2". Bringing up counter points to that idea is fine, but pushing that their current calcs or flawed are invalid doesn't fit the point of the thread.