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DC Comics - The Legendary DC Heralds Upgrade

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To clarify, even if Where is Thy Sting were to be considered physical, the Black Hole Feat would only be Tier 4 because of the Heat Death.
 
Current case-by-case judgments are on this post and will be updated accordingly.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5379794

Please notify us if you wish to revise or add any feat verifications below.

Once more votes are garnered, we can begin the second round of discussion.

@Eficiente Do you have any further points to reiterate regarding the list below?

Current Feats w/ 3+ Agree Leanings:

Post Crisis​

Others​

Gods​

Wonder Woman​

Superman​

Lanterns​

Rebirth​

Superman​

 
Qawsedf234 said:
If you have two infinite 4th-dimensional objects that are separated from each other, they would require a 5th-dimensional space to be separated against.
Click to expand...
And the source wall seperates every universe and dimension as a barrier between them.
 
Vasco said:
And the source wall seperates every universe and dimension as a barrier between them.
Click to expand...
Sometimes. But sometimes it's written that the universes share the same physical space and the same source wall surrounds all of them.


Vasco said:
Simply being chained by it doesn't weaken him iirc it needs to used to attack him and it weakens his power not his durability.
Click to expand...
Do you have scans that say this? I'm skeptical that it'd be in the comic.
 
Deagonx said:
Sometimes. But sometimes it's written that the universes share the same physical space and the same source wall surrounds all of them.
Click to expand...
Doesn't the map show them existing separately infact, anyways the source wall tier varies depending on the realm it is so understandable.
Deagonx said:
Do you have scans that say this? I'm skeptical that it'd be in the comic.
Click to expand...
It's never stated he gets weakened just by being in contact with them some attacks even done by Nth metal or tenth metal only stunned him for a while after being damaged by them, chaining him up will possibly lower his power to do anything but not his durability since chaining someone doesn't lower their durability.

Besides I even doubt there's a statement that said tenth metal affects his power in a negative way only thing we know it can be used to harm him.
 
Vasco said:
Doesn't the map show them existing separately infact
Click to expand...
Eh, yes but that could just he for visuals sake. I don't think DC fully abandoned the different frequency thing. But it isn't super important either way.


Vasco said:
Besides I even doubt there's a statement that said tenth metal affects his power in a negative way only thing we know it can be used to harm him.
Click to expand...
I think the circumstances warrant skepticism towards using that feat
 
Deagonx said:
Eh, yes but that could just he for visuals sake. I don't think DC fully abandoned the different frequency thing. But it isn't super important either way.
Click to expand...
How do you interpret the universes vibrating in different frequencies phenomenon.
Deagonx said:
I think the circumstances warrant skepticism towards using that feat
Click to expand...
I would have called it an outlier but the thread dosen't make it seem that way and I'd have to agree with the feat cause one shoting a 2-C character should grant 2-C, the feat can be doubtful if Barbados was stated to be weakened from the chains then again I don't actually remember such statement.
 
@Firestorm808

Can you add that I disagree with Superman scaling to Barbatos, if Barbatos was bound by tenth metal chains, and that destroying the Phantom Zone seems like unproven hyperbole to me, please?

Also, was it explicitly stated that Superman shook the entire Phantom Zone with a punch, or just a local area?

And Superboy-Prime still seemed to be all over the place in terms of power level, so I am uncertain about scaling to him.
 
Antvasima said:
@Firestorm808

Can you add that I disagree with Superman scaling to Barbatos, if Barbatos was bound by tenth metal chains, and that destroying the Phantom Zone seems like unproven hyperbole to me, please?

Also, was it explicitly stated that Superman shook the entire Phantom Zone with a punch, or just a local area?

And Superboy-Prime still seemed to be all over the place in terms of power level, so I am uncertain about scaling to him.
Click to expand...
Tbh I am also uncertain about the Barbatos scaling. If Superman could just one-shot Barbatos like that, the original Metal wouldn't make sense.

It was stated the Phantom Zone trembled under the weight of the fight and that every prisoner was alerted to the fight. That pretty clearly indicates the entire Zone was shook.

I honestly don't have much of a problem with the SBP scaling, I always found SBP overrated.
 
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Transcending said:
Tbh I am also uncertain about the Barbatos scaling. If Superman could just one-shot Barbatos like that, the original Metal wouldn't make sense.
Click to expand...
Yes, agreed.
Transcending said:
It was stated the Phantom Zone trembled under the weight of the fight and that every prisoner was alerted to the fight. That pretty clearly indicates the entire Zone was shook.
Click to expand...
That doesn't seem specific enough for my taste regarding the exact scale involved.
Transcending said:
I honestly don't have much of a problem with the SBP scaling, I always found SPB overrated.
Click to expand...
Well, the problem is that Geoff Johnns (who wrote the Legion of Three Worlds story) usually portrayed SBP as far less powerful than how other writers handled him during the Countdown event, in which he withstood a universe-destroying explosion.
 
Transcending said:
Tbh I am also uncertain about the Barbatos scaling. If Superman could just one-shot Barbatos like that, the original Metal wouldn't make sense.

It was stated the Phantom Zone trembled under the weight of the fight and that every prisoner was alerted to the fight. That pretty clearly indicates the entire Zone was shook.

I honestly don't have much of a problem with the SBP scaling, I always found SPB overrated.
Click to expand...
Yah this aligns with my thoughts, Superman beating Barbatos on his own is strange but the Phantom Zone and Prime stuff both kinda work
 
Regarding the Phantom Zone "membrane" matter, I talked with DT privately about it and he said this on the subject:

DontTalkDT said:
A "membrane" that separates two things can technically be up to one dimension lower than them. E.g. A line can separate a plane into a left and a right side (both of which could be infinite).
And a plane can separate two other planes in three-dimensional space, to give an example for a membrane of the same dimensionality. (e.g. a piece of paper between two other pieces of paper)

So the membrane definitely doesn't need to be higher dimensional.

Now, if there is a space that contains infinite construct A and infinite construct B, the case would be more debatable. (There are still some cases where even that isn't higher D, but it depends on details) But a membrane isn't (necessarily) such a space in itself, so that shouldn't matter here.
Click to expand...
 
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Firestorm808 said:
At this point in time, we are still going through the Cosmology revision, and I'm unsure which items above intersect with that.

In any case, there are a lot of items to go over. Is it possible to break things up into sections for a more focused discussion? It would be preferable for the thread not to jump from different parts.

I'll be able to go over the items when I'm available.
Click to expand...
About that, how's the cosmology revision coming along? It's been nearly a week since the second thread was closed, but it's still pinned, and there isn't a third thread yet.
 
Vasco said:
The OP is using it to push High 3-A not higher since Superman could shake it in his battle and later on stated he can destroy the structure if he puts his mind to it.
Click to expand...
Yeah that's what I am also arguing for. I am just asking how the Phantom Zone itself is just Tier 2 if the Sphere if Low 1-C.
 
Transcending said:
Isn't it part of the Sphere though?
Click to expand...
Being part of the Sphere doesn't grant a tier.

Transcending said:
I am just asking how the Phantom Zone itself is just Tier 2 if the Sphere if Low 1-C.
Click to expand...
The Phantom Zone likely isn't even necessarily Tier 2, but this is like asking how is a universe 3-A if the Multiverse that it's apart of is 2-A.
 
Deagonx said:
Being part of the Sphere doesn't grant a tier
Click to expand...
Being the same level of infinity as the Sphere is getting the same tier as the Sphere.
Deagonx said:
The Phantom Zone likely isn't even necessarily Tier 2, but this is like asking how is a universe 3-A if the Multiverse that it's apart of is 2-A.
Click to expand...
The spatial part of a Universe is 3-A, a universe also has a temporal part. The entirety of it would be Tier 2.
 
Transcending said:
Being the same level of infinity as the Sphere is getting the same tier as the Sphere.
Click to expand...

No. The Sphere is not homogenous the way you're implying.

Transcending said:
The spatial part of a Universe is 3-A, a universe also has a temporal part. The entirety of it would be Tier 2.
Click to expand...
You've missed the point. A constituent part of a realm doesn't need to have the same tier as that realm.
 
Deagonx said:
No. The Sphere is not homogenous the way you're
Click to expand...
Elaborate?
Deagonx said:
You've missed the point. A constituent part of a realm doesn't need to have the same tier as that realm.
Click to expand...
In this case it's because the Multiverse contains structures levels of infinites above the spatial part of the universe. The spatial part of the universe would take 0 space of the Multiverse.

Are you saying the Phantom Zone takes zero space?
 
Transcending said:
In this case it's because the Multiverse contains structures levels of infinites above the spatial part of the universe. The spatial part of the universe would take 0 space of the Multiverse.

Are you saying the Phantom Zone takes zero space?
Click to expand...
When you find yourself typing the phrase "are you saying" I need you to stop in your tracks and just not ask, because every single time you've said that phrase it has been followed by an egregious strawman of what I am saying.

You have, again, missed my point. Here it is, once again, in bold:

Deagonx said:
A constituent part of a realm doesn't need to have the same tier as that realm.
Click to expand...

Even if we scale the Sphere as being 1-C, that does not mean that every realm within it is 1-C. In fact, being a realm within the Sphere does not require a specific tier at all.
 
Deagonx said:
When you find yourself typing the phrase "are you saying" I need you to stop in your tracks and just not ask, because every single time you've said that phrase it has been followed by
Click to expand...
It's not an egregious straw man. If you are saying the Phantom Zone is not on the same tier as the SOG, you are saying it's one or more levels of infinites below the Sphere, in which case, it would take 0 space. I think the SOG is currently 6D, so if you are saying the Phantom Zone is Tier 2 or 3, you are saying it is 2-3 levels of infinities lower than the Sphere.
Deagonx said:
Even if we scale the Sphere as being 1-C, that does not mean that every realm within it is 1-C. In fact, being a realm within
Click to expand...
Firstly, we scale the Sphere to Low 1-C, not 1-C. Secondly, every realm in it would indeed be that tier, unless you are suggesting different realms are levels of infinities above or below each other?
 
Transcending said:
If you are saying the Phantom Zone is not on the same tier as the SOG, you are saying it's one or more levels of infinites below the Sphere, in which case, it would take 0 space.
Click to expand...
That's not how that works at all, no.

Transcending said:
I think the SOG is currently 6D
Click to expand...
The Sphere is often regarded as non-physical, so many of the realms in it don't have dimensionality at all. Of the ones that are physical, they are usually portrayed as basic three dimensional spaces.

Transcending said:
Secondly, every realm in it would indeed be that tier, unless you are suggesting different realms are levels of infinities above or below each other?
Click to expand...
In the absence of concrete evidence that dictates that they'd all be the same tier, we cannot assume that without actual evidence.
 
Deagonx said:
That's not how that works at all,
Click to expand...
It literally is.
Deagonx said:
The Sphere is often regarded as non-physical, so many of the realms in it don't have dimensionality at all. Of the ones that are physical, they are usually portrayed as basic three dimensional spaces.
Click to expand...
Non-physical doesn't mean anything, by that logic the Tiering System doesn't apply to any incorporeal being. And the 3-dimensional realms aren't accepted by the wiki.
Deagonx said:
In the absence of concrete evidence that dictates that they'd all be the same tier, we cannot assume that without actual evidence.
Click to expand...
The evidence is that the Phantom Zone isn't 2 or 3 levels of infinities below the Sphere and doesn't take 0 space.
 
I'm just gonna say Metaphysical realms can be higher dimensional also but let's not derail since OP proposed tier 3.
 
Transcending said:
It literally is.
Click to expand...
No, it's not. The Phantom Zone doesn't need to be the same tier as the Sphere in order for it to "take space," particularly since such a concept doesn't even apply to the Sphere.

Transcending said:
The evidence is that the Phantom Zone isn't 2 or 3 levels of infinities below the Sphere and doesn't take 0 space.
Click to expand...

What evidence is there that it "isn't 2 or 3 levels of infinity below the Sphere?" It sounds like all of this is based on pure assumption and this incoherent notion that it "would take 0 space" without being Tier 1. There's no evidence of the Phantom Zone being Tier 1, it's not even clear if it's infinite in size, and it lacks time, which means it is either 3-A or High 3-A if it's actually infinite in size.
 
Deagonx said:
No, it's not. The Phantom Zone doesn't need to be the same tier as the Sphere in order for it to "take space," particularly since such a concept doesn't even apply to the Sphere.
Click to expand...
Why wouldn't it apply to the Sphere?
Deagonx said:
What evidence is there that it "isn't 2 or 3 levels of infinity below the Sphere?" It sounds like all of this is based on pure assumption and this incoherent notion that it "would take 0 space" without being Tier 1.
Click to expand...
Because the Phantom Zone is an entire realm of the Sphere.
Deagonx said:
it's not even clear if it's infinite in size, and it lacks time, which means it is either 3-A or High 3-A if it's
Click to expand...
Lacking time doesn't mean you are 3-A or High 3-A, something transcending time also lacks time.

Going by our current tiering, the Zone is considered to be beyond normal time rather than being limited by it- https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...ld and its inhabitants are beyond normal time
 
Transcending said:
Why wouldn't it apply to the Sphere?
Click to expand...
Because the Sphere is not itself a physical realm that "contains" the realms within it in a physical way. The Phantom Zone doesn't "take up" the Sphere's space, it can't.

Transcending said:
Because the Phantom Zone is an entire realm of the Sphere.
Click to expand...
I'm aware. That isn't evidence of anything other than where the Phantom Zone is. It tells us nothing about it's properties or tier.

Transcending said:
Lacking time doesn't mean you are 3-A or High 3-A, something transcending time also lacks time.
Click to expand...
No shit. I'm saying it would be 3-A or High 3-A because it lacks time in addition to being a three-dimensional space that is possibly not infinite.

Transcending said:
Going by our current tiering, the Zone is considered to be beyond normal time rather than being limited by it
Click to expand...
I am aware that the Zone is outside time, that's my point. If it's just a non-temporal three-dimensional realm, then it's either 3-A or High 3-A depending on if it can reliably be confirmed as infinite in space.
 
I agree about that the Phantom Zone should only be a 3-A or High 3-A structure, and still think that Superman making a completely unproven seemingly very hyperbolic claim and shaking an area of unknown and unspecified size are definitely not good grounds for scaling from.
 
Deagonx said:
Because the Sphere is not itself a physical realm that "contains" the realms within it in a physical way. The Phantom Zone doesn't "take up" the Sphere's space, it can't.
Click to expand...
Vasco said:
I'm just gonna say Metaphysical realms can be higher dimensional also but let's not derail since OP proposed tier 3.
Click to expand...
Transcending said:
Non-physical doesn't mean anything, by that logic the Tiering System doesn't apply to any incorporeal being. And the 3-dimensional realms aren't accepted by the wiki.
Click to expand...
Deagonx said:
I'm aware. That isn't evidence of anything other than where the Phantom Zone is. It tells us nothing about it's properties or tier.
Click to expand...
It tells us that the Phantom Zone occupies space.
Deagonx said:
No shit. I'm saying it would be 3-A or High 3-A because it lacks time in addition to being a three-dimensional space that is possibly not infinite.
Click to expand...
Why is it 3-dimensional? That goes against our current standards.
Deagonx said:
I am aware that the Zone is outside time, that's my point. If it's just a non-temporal three-dimensional realm, then it's either 3-A or High 3-A depending on if it can reliably be confirmed as infinite in space.
Click to expand...
Refer above.
 
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