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DC Comics - The Legendary DC Heralds Upgrade

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PapiSavitar5025 said:
So, hold on. I would just like some info on something, because the answer will depend on whether or not Superman scales fully to Pre-Flashpoint Darkseid, and not just his Avatars.
So, on the profile, we credit Darkseid's speed for tackling an unprepared Post-Crisis Superman, yet later down the comic's run, Superman not only withstands a mean blast from Darkseid, but blatantly overpowers him, forcing Darkseid to BFR him.
Also, the feat where Darkseid incapacitates Superman with a 'casual blast', also shows Superman getting right back up like -- seconds later. So my question stands: Are we scaling Superman to Darkseid in this manner?
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Bump.
 
OK, so I'll look at all the Superman vs Darkseid fights in Post Crisis

In Superman confidential #8, a young Superman gets oneshot by Darkseid and runs away, stating fighting him is madness.

Superman Confidential #10 also has young Superman get greatly hurt by the Omega Beams, needing rescue from Infinity Man


Superman vol 2 (1987) #3 is where Darkseid chokes out Superman and speed rushes him. The same comic has Superman having difficulty with a pacifier, which are weaker than Darkseid himself.

Then Action comics 586 happens and Superman overpowers and beats "Darkseid" (DC later claimed this was Desaad, but as someone in the thread pointed out, it doesn't really make sense) AFTER Darkseid was injured from his own Omega beams. This could be used to scale him to Darkseid at that time, but it's more likely Darkseid is weakened from being hit with his own Omega beams. He even notes the Omega Beams hurt him, and his full power is spent and will take time to return) Put this in the maybe pile.

Then we get Action Comics 637 and 638. This one has Darkseid easily hold him helpless with TTK and beat Superman in a single hand blast with the storyline treating Darkseid as beyond Superman. AFAIK, that's the last time they fight before Superman's death and rebirth

Their next fight is in Superman: The Man of Steel #116. This is the Imperiex War saga (our Worlds at war) so Post Eradicator upgrade and Training with Mongul Upgrade. Here, Darkseid blasts Superman off Kalibak, no sells a punch from him, and.incapacitates him in two punches. Superman recovers, then hits him with heat vision for no damage, then uses the Entropy Aegis to block the Omega beams and escapes, with Grayven stating Darkseid let him go

After that, we have Superman vs Darkseid: Apokolips Now, where Superman defeats Darkseid, managing to beat him until his face swells shut. This is the first clear victory we get, as although Superman hit Darkseid with his Omega Beams again in this comic, Darkseid continues fighting at full capacity and doesn't mention being weakened this time.

Next comes Superman/Batman #12 and #13. At first, Darkseid incaps Superman with a punch, but later an enraged Superman sends him flying with a punch. He then rushes him with a two handed blow but Darkseid shrugs it off and counters it with a backhand that drops Superman. Wonder woman interferes and reflects Darkseid's Omega Beams into his eyes. Superman takes the fight to the sun, where he overpowers and breaks Darkseid's arm, defeating him. I'd note this makes it seem like Superman had to sun dip to win, but can be argued out of it.

Countdown to Final Crisis #3 has Superman, enraged at the deaths of the New Gods and Darkseid threatening Jimmy Olsen, fight Darkseid. Superman's heat vision harms him, Darkseid downs him with a hand blast, but Superman does seem to have the advantage before Darkseid "Grows bored" and activates Jimmy Olsen's powers. However, the next issue, Countdown #2 has Superman completely unable to breach Orion's Astro Force tornado (alongside Wally West Flash, Donna Troy and Kyle Rayner Green Lantern) and treat the fight between Orion and Darkseid as beyond them

Tallying it up, by my interpretation, we have 4 times a pre-Death of S Superman was presented as inferior to Darkseid, once where he was presented as overpowering Darkseid (though Darkseid was weakened and hurt) Superman Confidential 8 and 10, Superman vol 2 #3, Action Comics 637 and 638 present Superman as inferior. Action Comics 586 presents Superman as possibly superior, with context.

We have one clear case of post Eradicator and Training with Mongul Superman being inferior in Superman the Man of Steel 116, a borderline case in Superman/Batman 12 and 13, and two cases of him being superior in Countdown #3 and Apokolips now
 
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AerrowStorm1 said:
Then we get Action Comics 637 and 638. This one has Darkseid easily beat Superman in a single hand blast and hold him helpless with TTK with the storyline treating Darkseid as beyond Superman. AFAIK, that's the last time they fight before Superman's death and rebirth
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These two links do not work.
 
PapiSavitar5025 said:
Ah, okay.

Anyways, there's also Man of Tomorrow #16, Superman bests Darkseid after a brutal fight.
Superman/Batman (2004) #42, Superman quickly pummels Darkseid and forces him to retreat.
Countdown (2007) Issue #3, Superman overpowers Darkseid to the point where he has to turn Jimmy to kryptonite in order to get the upper hand.
Click to expand...


I mentioned Countdown.

Superman/Batman I didn't count since Darkseid had just recovered his powers, Superman caught him by surprise and Darkseid was still so weak even Batman was able to draw blood from him, when earlier in the same series, Darkseid shrugged off Batman's punches when Bruce was amped by a motherbox and Apokoliptian armor.

Man of Tomorrow is part of the Digital first comics which aren't canon by default, though if this comic was supposed to be canon, then I'd count it too.
 
Just commenting on this for a bit.

AerrowStorm1 said:
In Superman confidential #8, a young Superman gets oneshot by Darkseid and runs away, stating fighting him is madness.

Superman Confidential #10 also has young Superman get greatly hurt by the Omega Beams, needing rescue from Infinity Man
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Superman Confidential is their earliest meeting so I don't think Supes losing there matters. What does matter imo is that Supes could take the Omega Beams for an extended period of time there, and if Darkseid was so nerfed by something Confidential Superman survived... that's pretty bad.

You're missing two instances I think, one where Supes solos Darkseid's army in Action Comics and one where he overpowers him in Supes/Bats 40 something

Pre Death Superman also has scaling to Mongul, who's supposedly to be on the same level as well as stated again here as DS (Both are from Rann Thanagar Holy War #4), has survived pain worse than what DS can put him through, scales to or above Hall Monarch (Justice League America #87), who scales to Dreamslayer who's a rival to Darkseid (Justice League America #88), etc. Doomsday is also Clark's greatest opponent and even a pre DOS DD is hyper relative to Darkseid in Doomsday Annual #1
 
PapiSavitar5025 said:
Source?
Click to expand...


Image for those who have Twitter disabled-
image.png
 
Emirp sumitpo said:
You're missing two instances I think, one where Supes solos Darkseid's army in Action Comics and one where he overpowers him in Supes/Bats 40 something

Pre Death Superman also has scaling to Mongul, who's supposedly to be on the same level as well as stated again here as DS (Both are from Rann Thanagar Holy War #4), has survived pain worse than what DS can put him through, scales to or above Hall Monarch (Justice League America #87), who scales to Dreamslayer who's a rival to Darkseid (Justice League America #88), etc. Doomsday is also Clark's greatest opponent and even a pre DOS DD is hyper relative to Darkseid in Doomsday Annual #1
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Mentioned Superman/Batman #42 and why the scaling for it is off.

Action Comics 814 is much harder. Superman punches Darkseid once in it, hard enough to make him angry, without any blood drawn but when Darkseid is about to counterattack, Clark blitzes his army and BFRs them all instead. It's also noted Darkseid simply wanted to talk to him instead of fight.

The Doomsday Annual scaling is fine, as long as we note once more that stories by Dan Jurgens treats Darkseid as below Superman and it's his politics that make him a threat. Relevant quotes

RC: What if you threw Darkseid in that pit with no preparation or anything like that?


DAN JURGENS: Because of brute power and the natural immunity that Doomsday genetically develops, Doomsday has the advantage. But my theory is that the next time they fight, Darkseid knows that he's been defeated and takes countermeasures.

RC: So, in your opinion, if Darkseid fought Doomsday without employing technology and strategy, Doomsday would win every time?


DAN JURGENS: Yes. Right.
Click to expand...

and

RC: Do you believe, then, that Darkseid is far less powerful than Superman-that it is Darkseid's political machinations and his dangerous mind that makes him a threat to Superman, not his power?


DAN JURGENS: Exactly.


RC: But you did write in the preface to the Hunter/Prey trade paperback that Doomsday defeating Superman is one thing . . . but Doomsday defeating Darkseid takes Doomsday to a whole other level.


DAN JURGENS: We needed Doomsday to defeat Darkseid for people to understand that Doomsday was a multi-dimensional threat.


RC: Then was is that Doomsday defeating Apokolips took Doomsday to a whole other level?


DAN JURGENS: Well, I say it's more like that. You know, if you go back to the Kirby Darkseid stories, Darkseid was never set up to be the all-powerful type of being. To me, Highfather was always set up to be the more powerful, omnipotent sort of being than was Darkseid. Darkseid had power in that he was able to control people around him. People were terrified of him.

I always say with guys like Darkseid and Lex Luthor . . . how come everybody fears these guys? They never do anything bad. You know, you go back to the Kirby stories and everybody talked about how bad Darkseid was and see that, yeah, Apokolips was always a terrible place to live, but . . . gee, I don't know if we ever saw him do terrible, evil, awful things on a frequent basis. And so I think Darkseid, because he wields the tremendous army and power of Apokolips . . . he is powerful, in a galactic sense.


RC: So in your opinion, in terms of sheer power, it's clear that Superman and Doomsday are both above Darkseid?


DAN JURGENS: Right
Click to expand...
 
So what are our conclusions regarding how we should scale Darkseid and the other new gods then?

Also, what else do we currently need to do and decide here?
 
Antvasima said:
So what are our conclusions regarding how we should scale Darkseid and the other new gods then?

Also, what else do we currently need to do and decide here?
Click to expand...
I believe we should remove the 'as low as Solar System level when operating through Avatars'. That key already has scaling off of his Pre-Crisis Emanation, and it's not like it's a different Darkseid every single time the two have fought; there is legit scaling here, enough that -- combined with the rest of the feats that are leaning towards being accepted -- should qualify an upgrade for DC Heralds.
 
PapiSavitar5025 said:
I believe we should remove the 'as low as Solar System level when operating through Avatars'. That key already has scaling off of his Pre-Crisis Emanation, and it's not like it's a different Darkseid every single time the two have fought; there is legit scaling here, enough that -- combined with the rest of the feats that are leaning towards being accepted -- should qualify an upgrade for DC Heralds.
Click to expand...
Indeed. there's also precedent for characters such as Doomsday to scale from him but this could be thanks to Byrne’s shenanigans
 
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Just a note that the more we chain-scale the characters of shared superhero settings that are built on everybody can fight everybody to any characters that extremely biased writers have allowed them to fight, rather than their own explicit feats, the more extremely unreliable our statistics for them will turn.

Making every single powerful DC Comics superhero and villain tier Low 1-C because not all DC Comics writers present Darkseid as using avatars, doesn't make any sense. DC Comics, and especially Marvel Comics writers contradict each other in this kind of manner continuously.
 
Antvasima said:
Just a note that the more we chain-scale the characters of shared superhero settings that are built on everybody can fight everybody to any characters that extremely biased writers have allowed them to fight, rather than their own explicit feats, the more extremely unreliable our statistics for them will turn.
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While I do agree, there is enough consistency with Darkseid and Superman that NOT scaling the two is just ridiculous, as is the assumption that Darkseid uses a different, weaker Emanation for every single one of their encounters.
 
The problem is that some writers have established Darkseid's true self as residing on a higher level of reality, whereas others have contradicted this, so scaling Superman to Darkseid's highest self ever portrayed by any writer doesn't seem to make sense.
 
That would still be literally infinitely higher than all of post-Crisis Superman's own practical raw power feats under peak exertion, and as such extremely unreliable.

It sounds more like we might need to revise Darkseid's own page instead.
 
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Antvasima said:
That would still be literally infinitely higher than all of post-Crisis Superman's own practical raw power feats under peak exertion, and as such extremely unreliable.
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I think it would be best to await the conclusions of the first part of this thread; determining which feats, if any, are reliable. Only then can we for sure say whether or not it's infinitely higher than Superman's peak exertion.
 
Hope I'm not derailing the thread but I just want to say that I have shifted my stance from "agreed" to "neutral" on the upgrade proposal.
 
Would compressing thousands of timelines into a single point be multiversal? That is one of the feats Enchantress performed in Shadowpact vol 1 26
 
Emirp sumitpo said:
Also to reiterate, we are currently discussing the validity and legitimacy of these feats.

Discussion on character scaling and scaling chains comes after discussing the feats.
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So what is the verdict here?

Are we awaiting any other opinions, any responses, or are the agreed feats enough for us to really get the ball rolling?
 
Da_Lunge_Fish said:
Would compressing thousands of timelines into a single point be multiversal?
Click to expand...
In actuality it shouldn't be as a timeline is infinite and the amount of timelines affected should be not be relevant similar to how destroying the spatial part of 2 and 3 infinite universes is the same(both High 3-A), but the current Tier 2 standards are not clear so might as well be(DT and Ultima are gonna revise them a bit later).

It should still be Tier 2 though, 2-C or not.
 
Transcending said:
In actuality it shouldn't be as a timeline is infinite and the amount of timelines affected should be not be relevant similar to how destroying the spatial part of 2 and 3 infinite universes is the same(both High 3-A), but the current Tier 2 standards are not clear so might as well be(DT and Ultima are gonna revise them a bit later).

It should still be Tier 2 though, 2-C or not.
Click to expand...
Summon @PrinceofPein and ask him, he recently worked on tier 2.
 
Transcending said:
Thinking about the feat again, since it's compression, it could just be space-time manip rather than AP, there's no creation or destruction happening.
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pretty sure space time manip at a universal scale is still universal. And here it does imply actual AP since they use actual power to tug at the timestream
 
Antvasima said:
We need to try to be responsible and create as reliable wiki pages as possible
Click to expand...
While I do get where you're coming from, and respect how careful you're being about this, I think there's too much caution being thrown to the wind.

The 4-B Heralds got their tier based off THREE feats: Flash's IMP, Alan Scott dying, and John Stewart's Solar System feat.

How many universal feats are leaning towards agreement? Eight? That's more than double what we use for DC Heralds currently.
 
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