- 25,091
- 27,232
- Thread starter
- #761
And that's PC only, Post Flashpoint is 4-B based off of one feat.
Plus the fact that Wally's IMP only scales to Thawne and himself, so technically only 2 4-B feats for Post-Crisis.
Last edited:
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
DC Comics - The Legendary DC Heralds Upgrade
- Thread starter Emirp sumitpo
- Start date
- Status
Plus the fact that Wally's IMP only scales to Thawne and himself, so technically only 2 4-B feats for Post-Crisis.
- 1,954
- 419
- 25,091
- 27,232
- Thread starter
- #763
That's more an outlier for Batman considering said weakened Darkseid could tank a punch from Supergirl not long before in #25. The Darkseid shrugging attacks from Batman was a non weakened Darkseid and that Darkseid was only weakened in #13.
Darkseid also seemingly received his powers back as we see him glowing with his red eyes in #42, after he had taken the staff and when Superman jumped him.
- 2,761
- 2,553
So whats the verdict now, which feats are currently accepted?
- 25,091
- 27,232
- Thread starter
- #765
Actually, Mogo illuminating the universe in New 52.
Last edited:
- 1,954
- 419
Oh yeah, that's right.
So... We scale the Rebirth characters mostly off PC, but they have one Solar System feat themselves, and it's... What? An off-panel feat?
Yeah, even if the upgrade doesn't go through we still need serious evaluations on this verse's Heralds.
- 2,761
- 2,553
its going to get them downgraded if the upgrade doesn't go through
- 168,519
- 77,239
Well, the problem is that DC Comics characters do not really seem to have displayed a considerable amount of self-evident raw power feats after the original Crisis occurred. However, given that the entire Green Lantern Corps together explicitly contained a galaxy-destroying explosion during the Sinestro Corps War, I personally wouldn't mind scaling individual Lanterns, and the characters that are comparably powerful, to 4-A from that raw power display, if we can at least find a few feats in the same range.
- 1,954
- 419
Before we start looking for alternatives, the Universal feats need to be addressed. Currently, we have enough leaning towards approval to overshadow how many Solar System feats we have.
And assuming you can only find 2-3 4-A feats, Universal DC Heralds would still be more consistent, should all eight get the green light. And from how things are looking, there's a good chance we will get that green light.
- 2,761
- 2,553
lets finish with the tier 2 revision first since from the look of things, its more likely to happen
- 168,519
- 77,239
I thought that almost none of them passed the combined scrutiny of myself and the other in-depth evaluators such as Eficiente. Which of them remain unrejected?
- 1,954
- 419
Superman's statements regarding being able to destroy the Phantom Zone (Ant is the only one disagreeing),
Infinite Man stated being capable of destroying the universe (Ant only disagreed with sculpting space-time),
Orion's Astro Force containing a universal explosion,
Mr Terrific being unsure if Wally is stronger than Superman (the former of which he states has infinite power),
Ion could remake the Universe
Let me know if I missed any.
- 168,519
- 77,239
It was a speculative claim without any grounding or evidence. It is not remotely sufficiently reliable to pass, no matter how much anybody who sees scaling as a competition rather than a perfectionistic striving for accuracy might want it to.
Can you show me a link for that feat again please? Wasn't only the local galaxy mentioned for it, or was that another feat shown here involving Mordru?
That is the most reliable claim, yes, but it was still just a claim, and we do not know if it was a case of raw power or a specific characteristic of the Astro Force.
More recent incarnations of Superman have never remotely displayed power on a scale with more recent incarnation of the Flash, but the writers are obliged to not admit that to readers who cheer for him. It is a very unreliable statement taken on its own without evidence.
Wasn't Kyle Rayner during his first case of using the Ion nickname shown completely outclassing the Justice League in terms of raw power due to having received an enormous temporary power-up at the time?
Basically, we cannot upgrade every herald-level superhero and supervillain in the verse by an infinite amount based on a few extremely unproven claims, and I am disappointed in that not a sufficient number of other members here seem to be sufficiently focused on our wiki's reliability in that regard.
- 7,904
- 14,966
Agreed. The Phantom Zone feat is very iffy IMO.
It comes from this scan, specifically the phrase that reads: "If we don't act, Mordru and Glorith will finally lay claim to the universe... for so long as it lasts!"
I agree. It says "They have a weapon with the potential to annihilate the entire cosmos" and the only thing that can stop the weapon is the Astro Force, it seems shakey to me.
I agree.
- 1,954
- 419
Sorry, I'll have to continue this discussion at another time. This area doesn't have the best service, I'll be able to continue at a later time.
- 168,519
- 77,239
Yes.
How is that remotely any proof for an instant universal space-time destruction scale?
Yes.
Thank you for trying tl be responsible.
- 168,519
- 77,239
- 7,904
- 14,966
Beats me. I frequently find myself asking the same question.
- 25,091
- 27,232
- Thread starter
- #779
We already covered that in the OP.
- 7,904
- 14,966
It'd be helpful to quote it. It's easy to forget when this many arguments are being made at once.
- 25,091
- 27,232
- Thread starter
- #781
Here.
- 3,270
- 1,096
Vast majority of the feats people are split on
- 168,519
- 77,239
That seems like farfetched speculation and rhetorical rationalisations. If a feat is explicitly tier 3-C, our job as staff is to go with Occam's Razor and use the most plausible interpretation.
Also, I think that Superboy Prime's and Monarch's combined feat is only considered to be of a Low 2-C scale, but that SBP is rated higher due to scaling to Pre-Crisis Superman.
- 25,091
- 27,232
- Thread starter
- #784
Could you at least elaborate further?
- 168,519
- 77,239
I meant that if the explosion was stated to only be able to destroy a galaxy, there is no good reason for us to suddenly make an exception to our standard evaluation procedures and assume that it would only cause destruction on that scale despite that there is nothing to naturally hinder its expansion afterwards in the vacuum of outer space.
For example, if some character punches a planet and it explodes, we do not have as a standard to assume that the feat is of tier 2-C despite all evidence to the contrary.
For example, if some character punches a planet and it explodes, we do not have as a standard to assume that the feat is of tier 2-C despite all evidence to the contrary.
Last edited:
Hellbeast
He/Him- 5,102
- 4,535
- 1,954
- 419
It isn't speculation though. Superman isn't like, 'Maybe I can do this...' He says, word for word, 'I could make this whole dimension cease to exist if I really put my head to it'. Then goes on to say 'Maybe that's what I should be doing!" A big part of Superman's character is that he knows how strong he is, and is constantly holding back because of it. The question he's asking is not 'Can I do this?' it's 'SHOULD I do this?'.
With Superman's own intelligence, and mastery over his powers (which the wiki has on the profile), it's hard to believe his statements are pure hyperbole, especially when he was shaking the entire thing prior.
Orion already scales to Low Multi, so it being the former isn't far-fetched.
Mr. Terrific is one of the last people in DC I would consider being 'unreliable'; he's one of the smartest people on the planet. Hasn't Wonder Woman tanked light speed blows from Reverse Flash? And didn't Superman of Earth Two finish off the Anti Monitor?
I honestly do not know, but it would be rather consistent with future portrayals. At the MOST, characters should downscale from Ion; I think he's on another league compared to the League.
(Shown by the Superboy Prime vs Sodam Yat fight, too)
Last edited:
- 946
- 830
Need I remind you all, Wally also stated it would be suicide for him to go against superman in a fight, this is wally saying so after defeating a Vampire superman from another reality.
This thread really has slow pacing.
- 168,519
- 77,239
It was not stated or shown that he shook the entire Phantom Zone previously, no. It was likely just a local area. And we cannot upgrade every single herald-level DC Comics character by a literally infinite amount based on a single instance of unspecified circumstances and completely unproven speculation.
Do his avatars or lower reality manifestations scale to that in the post-Crisis continuity? That seems very unreliable and inconsistent in that case.
Yes he is, but the writers are definitely not, and have an obligation to not let every single character that is far less powerful and enormously slower than the Flash seem redundant in team book settìngs (hence why Captain America and Black Widow aren't presented as being completely useless in any team with Thor in the same roster), and Superman and Wonder Woman still don't remotely have any explicit feats of such a scale, which is necessary in order to make this kind of widespread upgrade even slightly reliable.
As I saw Peter David (?) state in an interview once, superhero comic book writers always have to cheat in stories involving extreme speedsters in order to pretend that they ever get a challenge.
An extremely weakened Anti-Monitor, yes, and the Golden Age Superman also matched the Silver Age incarnation of Superman at least once, but he also did not have any feats remotely approaching such a scale, and again, everybody can fight everybody as long as a writer feels like it is the fundamental lifeblood of these settings, as is blatantly apparent to anybody truly paying attention, and which was also outright confirmed in a video with Stan Lee that we linked to in our wiki.
The original portrayal of Ion was just Kyle Rayner evolving his powers far beyond the scale of all other Justice League members, with no emotional entity involved. The other members should not scale to his full power as far as I am aware.
Last edited:
- 168,519
- 77,239
Well, again, superhero comic book writers very seldom remotely care or know enough to keep almost anything consistent with the power level portrayals of the many hundreds of other writers in their settings.
As such we need reasonably consistent portrayals regarding explicit feats shown of a certain scale before we chain-scale lots of characters who have consistently been portrayed at an at best planetary scale by a few degrees of infinity by scaling everybody to The Flash at his absolute peak. We cannot scale Heatwave and Captain Cold to 2-C for example.
It seems like we have revised The Flash to a more consistent scale recently though:
Flash (Wally West) (Post-Crisis)
Wally West, better known as The Flash is a member of the Justice League and the former sidekick and successor of Barry Allen. As the "Fastest Man Alive", he is constantly caught in various world-shattering conflicts while trying to balance his heroics with his home life. Tier: Varies with Speed...
vsbattles.fandom.com
- 7,904
- 14,966
Most of the major battleboarding sites don't deal with profiles at all. The non-VSBW sites that do create profiles are basically just imitations of VSBW inhabited by people who got frustrated that their unmitigated wank did not get acceptance here. Even here you will still see people argue that basically everyone in the Sphere is tier 1 or tier 2 and that when they come to the multiverse they reduce their power to basically nothing, and whenever humans go there they get upgraded infinitely.
It's absurd, and you do not get that impression that all in any of the hundreds of stories that involve these interactions, but someone finds that scan from the 90s about dust-size universes and they've been holding onto it ever since. As though boom tubes turn you into a platonic concept.
------
To the OP though, I don't think it is in bad faith/malicious (and I do not believe Ant alleged that) I do think there needs to be a more evenly applied degree of scrutiny. When I first read through the thread I feel like at least half of the scans/feats were poor enough that they warranted immediate disregard. 9 pages later, we have pruned the majority of them from serious consideration which to me begs the question of why they made it into the thread in the first place? IMO it would have been far more productive to have a focused discussion on the handful of feats that actually might get us somewhere, because now the thread has become so massively convoluted that it's probably going to fizzle out due to the massive inertia of trying to progress forward.
The reality is that these characters really just aren't universal or multiversal, and even when they have some hail mary of a feat that could be used to establish that, it's honestly more realistic to regard it as an outlier than to think that everyone who went toe-to-toe with Green Lantern can destroy universes.
- 946
- 830
If you look from flash wars to current, DC makes it only seem Superman can go against them, his the only one seem to be on that level.Well, again, superhero comic book writers very seldom remotely care or know enough to keep almost anything consistent with the power level portrayals of the many hundreds of other writers in their settings.
As such we need reasonably consistent portrayals regarding explicit feats shown of a certain scale before we chain-scale lots of characters who have consistently been portrayed at an at best planetary scale by a few degrees of infinity by scaling everybody to The Flash at his absolute peak. We cannot scale Heatwave and Captain Cold to 2-C for example.
It seems like we have revised The Flash to a more consistent scale recently though:
Flash (Wally West) (Post-Crisis)
Wally West, better known as The Flash is a member of the Justice League and the former sidekick and successor of Barry Allen. As the "Fastest Man Alive", he is constantly caught in various world-shattering conflicts while trying to balance his heroics with his home life. Tier: Varies with Speed...
They don't scale to the flashes with common sense though everything seems just like plot convenience plus their abilities are a problem to speedsters especially cold.
I mean wouldn't only fellow top speedsters logically scale to him?
TimeTrapperFanBoy
He/Him- 193
- 181
I'm gonna be honest, when I saw this thread I got rather excited because before this thread came out I keep thinking about whether this site was purposely ignoring the fights where Post-Crisis Superman defeats Darkseid (pre-Flaspoint Emanation). However, looking back at the feats and the analysis done by guys like Efficiente, Firestorm, etc, the reliability of tier 2 Post Crisis heralds just seems really REALLY shaky to the point where I am beginning to question how we jumped to the idea of trying to upgrade guys like Aquaman to Low 2-C.
- 15,556
- 16,175
Aside from the fact that scaling isn’t being discussed yet, you know that‘s not even remotely what this thread is suggesting, right? The Green Lanterns have variable tiers, any character that fights them would need evidence to suggest that they would scale to their Tier 2 ratings as opposed to their lower ratings.
- 7,904
- 14,966
Green Lantern was just the name that came to mind, but I'd say what I am saying applies to pretty much all of the people listed.
- 15,556
- 16,175
Not really, because most major characters have holding back tiers or are variable. So like I said about Green Lantern, we’re not handing out Tier 2 ratings to every single character that happens to fight Superman, Wonder Woman, etc.
- 1,954
- 419
Tier 2 Metallo ftw.
- 7,904
- 14,966
I understand holding back, but there's are a lot of villains they've fought with life or death stakes where holding back isn't a plausible option.
But to the point of the thread, where do we go from here? Has a consensus been reached on any of the main feats?
- Status
