DC Comics: Mandrakk Plot Manipulation addition

[NHTkenshin2]

First thread in months, but had to let this one out.

Im still a little confused on why Mandrakk doesn't have Plot Manipulation exactly?
The whole idea of this dude is that he is a Cosmic Vampire capable of devouring entire Narratives and whose whole goal is to literally suck the Multiverse dry out of story (Supergods p. 368)

This all makes sense, as that Mandrakk literally holds the bleed (Final Crisis: Superman Beyond #2), which is described as the very blood of the 52 universes (Final Crisis: Superman Beyond #2), which is consistent with it being called as the very substance of life (Final Crisis: Superman Beyond #1)

Why would this be important to Plot Manip exactly?
Well because Grant Morrison has regularly explained the the structure of the Orrery in his canon. He has confirmed numerous times that all universes are Meta-continuities, existing as literal narratives, which Grant refers to as “Linetimes” which all make up Planetime, the fictive space, where all comic book stories reside.

Planetime is written by Cubetime, the geometrically higher entities that write these comic books into existence (Grant Morrison interview with Firstcomicsnews.com)
Grant explains this thoroughly here


Thats pretty much what Mandrakk did, he held and used the substance that makes up these universes/stories and used that same substance in combat. And Grant already told us that he is capable of devouring narratives, as well as eventually consuming all story in the Multiverse.

Pretty simple...i hope?

Plot Manipulation (Stated to be capable of devouring narratives and sucking all story in the Multiverse dry. Is shown being capable of holding and storing the Bleed, as well as use it in combat, which is described as the blood and substance of 52 Universes/Stories)

Lord almighty, i genuinely forgot how to do this VSBW shit

 

[PrinceStories]

devouring and sucking All Stories Only get absorption not get plot manipulation

 

[Deagonx]

Im still a little confused on why Mandrakk doesn't have Plot Manipulation exactly?

It was discussed in another thread

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-mandrakk-rewrite.145816/

Essentially, his meta abilities do not really constitute what the wiki considers plot manipulation. For it to be plot manipulation, he needs to have author-like control over the script, in a literal "writing what happens at will" which he clearly can't do.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

It was discussed in another thread

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-mandrakk-rewrite.145816/

Essentially, his meta abilities do not really constitute what the wiki considers plot manipulation. For it to be plot manipulation, he needs to have author-like control over the script, in a literal "writing what happens at will" which he clearly can't do.

Zillo said to Superman that even a single DROP of Bleed equals ultimate power. We dont know how much “Ultimate power" would a drop give, however, Mandrakk literally owns the entirety of Bleedspace to himself, thus ultimate dominion over the Orrery

The Bleed has already been shown to view the Orrery similarly to comic panels, which is very consistent with Morrisons view on the universes of the Orrery being Narratives. The bleed has been called the literal blood of all universes and the very substance that makes up these characters, giving them life

Hell, if you take the above as true, then the statement where Mandrakk is stated to be capable of consuming the ink of the Multiverse is pretty much 100% referring TO the Bleed.
Mandrakk both consumes and controls the ink that makes up these stories, giving him Plot Manipulation.
Shit, “possibly Plot Manipulation” would work too, the very fact that Mandrakk is capable of consuming the ink of story also means that to some extent he has the capability of altering that story.

 

[Deagonx]

Mandrakk both consumes and controls the ink that makes up these stories, giving him Plot Manipulation.

So, to be clear, "Plot Manipulation" has a really specific meaning here, which is the ability to alter reality at will in an author like way. There's just no indication in the comic that he can do this, so he isn't given the ability.

 

[Thelastmlg]

Pretty sure he was called a "cosmically-charged editor" and WOG went on detail about the story stuff really referring to plot, but all the scans i got i put in his page in debates jungle, which doesn't seem to be around, and it was years ago so yeah.

But yeah, looking for the interviews might help cuz i remember it being the 4th wall form of stories

 

[Deagonx]

Pretty sure he was called a "cosmically-charged editor" and WOG went on detail about the story stuff really referring to plot,

I've been hearing for a long time that Mandrakk was some sort of editor stand-in, but never actually saw scans of it. But even so if it's just WOG stuff it's kind of moot

 

[Thelastmlg]

1. I'll try finding the scan cuz it is legit.

2. Why would it be moot? If they use the words "narrative" and "stories" and WOG confirms it is the metafictional sense, than it is plot manipulation

 

[Deagonx]

WOG isn't very reliable in general for stuff like that and it could just be allegorical. Mandrakks abilities have nothing to do with rewriting a story to fit his desires.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

So, to be clear, "Plot Manipulation" has a really specific meaning here, which is the ability to alter reality at will in an author like way. There's just no indication in the comic that he can do this, so he isn't given the ability.

The ink, its the stuff that writes these stories, it writes the speech bubbles, it writes the characters in infinite different situations, it gives the story colour and life

Mandrakk consumes that ink, as well as uses it in many different ways, thats akin to literally using the plot itself to whatever your heart desires.

The description of Plot Manipulation says this

Plot Manipulation is the ability to control the plot that governs reality. Commonly found in metafictional stories, the plot can be understood as a fundamental aspect of reality once one views that reality as fictional. It is the description of the world that doesn't only describe, but determines, reality itself. As such, by altering the plot, one can achieve virtually any effect, in a similar fashion as with Reality Warping.

Lets go over some stuff here

1. “the plot can be understood as a fundamental aspect of reality once one views that reality as fictional.”
   1. The bleed views all universes like Comic panels, a product of 4-D vision.
   2. This is consistent with Grant Morrisons vision on the Multiverse, one that says that all of these Universes are their own narratives, existing as Linetimes inside a grand structure named Planetime. And then from a geometrically higher perspective, all universes are seen as fiction in comparison to Cubetime, The Real world
   3. The Bleed is very consistent with viewing these universes from said “Higher dimensional perspective" as that it has been called the very blood of these universes, which are established as Stories
   4. The Bleed has also been called the very substance of life to these Stories
      1. Mandrakk draining The Bleed is also compared to sucking all life out of the story
   5. Draining the bleed out of the Universe is draining the meaning, characters and stories out of the Universe
   6. All of this is consistent with GM referring to The Bleed as the ink of the stories
2. “the ability to control the plot that governs reality”
   1. A single drop of the bleed holds ultimate power that cannot be held or bottled (Ultimate power over the story, what else would holding the literal ink of the story give you exactly?)
   2. The Monitors are seen being capable of bottling and altering The Bleed
   3. Mandrakk is capable of holding the entire bleed over all 52 Universes in his hands
   4. Mandrakk is also capable of using the Bleed in combat.

In my opinion, Mandrakk and the Monitors all qualify for Plot Manipulation, The Bleed is the literal ink of the Story itself, the absolute most fundamental thing in the universe, we shouldn't assume Mandrakk cant alter the ink when he is shown having dominion over the ENTIRE Bleedspace, where even a single drop of this infinite substance gives you “ultimate power”

Mandrakk consuming the Ink also means in combat situation, if he wants to, he can simply stir the Bleed of a story to win in a situation, thus altering the very story to his very will, qualifying as Plot Manipulation.

 

[Antvasima]

It was discussed in another thread

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-mandrakk-rewrite.145816/

Essentially, his meta abilities do not really constitute what the wiki considers plot manipulation. For it to be plot manipulation, he needs to have author-like control over the script, in a literal "writing what happens at will" which he clearly can't do.

That is correct, yes.

@Firestorm808 @Qawsedf234 @Eficiente

What do you think?

 

[Deagonx]

The ink, its the stuff that writes these stories, it writes the speech bubbles, it writes the characters in infinite different situations, it gives the story colour and life

Mandrakk consumes that ink, as well as uses it in many different ways, thats akin to literally using the plot itself to whatever your heart desires.

I just don't agree. Plot manipulation involves literally rewriting a story, and there's just no reading of FC: Superman Beyond that could justify such an interpretation of Mandrakk's abilities. He never demonstrated an ability to do this.

All of the stuff about "the ink" and bleed and stories and such are largely allegorical and come solely from Grant's interviews and not anything in the text, which makes it shakey to begin with, but even in the most generous interpretation towards the metafictional aspects of Final Crisis, I do not see any realistic interpretation where Mandrakk can be seen as having the ability to dictate the sequence of events by literally writing/re-writing a story.

In my opinion, Mandrakk and the Monitors all qualify for Plot Manipulation, The Bleed is the literal ink of the Story itself, the absolute most fundamental thing in the universe, we shouldn't assume Mandrakk cant alter the ink when he is shown having dominion over the ENTIRE Bleedspace, where even a single drop of this infinite substance gives you “ultimate power”

Mandrakk consuming the Ink also means in combat situation, if he wants to, he can simply stir the Bleed of a story to win in a situation, thus altering the very story to his very will, qualifying as Plot Manipulation.

The bleed isn't the ink, the multiverse is the ink. However, that's largely just metaphor from Grant's interviews and isn't reflected in the story. More importantly, even through this interpretation, there's no indication that Mandrakk has the power to control what occurs in a story or that he sees the multiverse as fictional.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

That is correct, yes.

@Firestorm808 @Qawsedf234 @Eficiente

What do you think?

Eh?
These were the arguments in Xearsays thread

Plot manipulation due to Hyperstory

And these were the responses made by Deagon

There's no evidence that Mandrakk controlled or influenced Hyperstory, the fact that Superman remarked that Hyperstory was trying to destroy him at the same time the battle with Mandrakk started doesn't prove that Mandrakk was responsible, and other evidence implies the opposite. Without clear and definitive evidence, there's no reason to assign plot manipulation to Mandrakk based on this speculative assumption.

What here is similar to my thread? C'mon people actually read the post first before doing a response

Plot manipulation involves literally rewriting a story, and there's just no reading of FC: Superman Beyond that could justify such an interpretation of Mandrakk's abilities. He never demonstrated an ability to do this.

Bui It isnt just “rewriting a story" its also manipulation of a story
Which Mandrakk can do

1. A single drop of the bleed holds ultimate power that cannot be held or bottled (Ultimate power over the story, what else would holding the literal ink of the story give you exactly?)
2. The Monitors are seen being capable of bottling and altering The Bleed
3. Mandrakk is capable of holding the entire bleed over all 52 Universes in his hands
4. Mandrakk is also capable of using the Bleed in combat.

So thats just not true.

All of the stuff about "the ink" and bleed and stories and such are largely allegorical

Time and time again Grant has explained his vision over DC Comics, he did it in Animal Man, in FC, in the Multiversities. Almost always the interpretation that these things are literal narratives and stories being created by a higher power, who are also mere creations of another higher power, all of which being a dot on Gods body

Morrison intended these things to be this way, non of it is flowery or allegorical, its all literal. We dont assume this for other verses, we shouldn't assume it for the father of metafiction

and come solely from Grant's interviews and not anything in the text, which makes it shakey to begin with

How exactly is it now shaky to use the far superior, less sketchy word of god directly from the author to explain events that happened in the story alot more clearly?

Mandrakks goal was to end The Multiverse, that's why The Thought Robot was actived to save it. How was Mandrakk going to end The Multiverse? Its through absorbing the ink of the Multiverse dry.
Lets take the authors word for it, because we did not write this.

but even in the most generous interpretation towards the metafictional aspects of Final Crisis, I do not see any realistic interpretation where Mandrakk can be seen as having the ability to dictate the sequence of events by literally writing/re-writing a story.

But he can though, Zillo explained it perfectly. A singular drop of the bleed gives you power regarded by Zillo, a Nil Monitor, as “Ultimate". What is Ultimate? Ultimate is the highest, it is the limit of whatever you are describing. Mandrakk deadass owns the entirety of Bleedspace, thats not a single drop, thats the whole ocean

The bleed is the ink of the story, this is hinted at several times and directly explained by Mandrakk in the story to literally be the blood of these universes
What are these Universes in Morrisons vision? They are narratives, the bleed is the blood of the narrative. Mandrakk uses it, he drinks from it, he consumes it and he owns it, he can do whatever he wants with it, which includes manipulating the plot

The bleed isn't the ink, the multiverse is the ink.

Mandrakk was going to drain the Multiverse dry out of....Multiverse? He is a Vampire, vampires drink blood, i am 100% certain that is what Morrison was going for here.

Even without the mental gymnastics above, i have already explained why The Bleed is 100% the ink of the Multiverse above. Please read it carefully

1. The bleed views all universes like Comic panels, a product of 4-D vision.
2. This is consistent with Grant Morrisons vision on the Multiverse, one that says that all of these Universes are their own narratives, existing as Linetimes inside a grand structure named Planetime. And then from a geometrically higher perspective, all universes are seen as fiction in comparison to Cubetime, The Real world
3. The Bleed is very consistent with viewing these universes from said “Higher dimensional perspective" as that it has been called the very blood of these universes, which are established as Stories
4. The Bleed has also been called the very substance of life to these Stories
   1. Mandrakk draining The Bleed is also compared to sucking all life out of the story
5. Draining the bleed out of the Universe is draining the meaning, characters and stories out of the Universe
6. All of this is consistent with GM referring to The Bleed as the ink of the stories

However, even through this interpretation, there's no indication that Mandrakk has the power to control what occurs in a story or that he sees the multiverse as fictional.

There are 2 layers to this, you are either the fictional character who the ink writes you into existence

Or you are above the ink, you view the ink like an extradimensional pool, you can splash around and do whatever you want to it, which would obviously affect the characters inside the Story

Holding and possessing a single Drop of the Bleed gives you ultimate power, considering this Bleed thing is literally the blood and ink of the story, the only ultimate power you will get is certainly Plot related. Mandrakk has the entirety of Bleedspace, he has all the pens in the world, and all stories, he can do whatever he wants with them

We literally see him using the Bleed in combat against Superman

 

[Deagonx]

Bui It isnt just “rewriting a story" its also manipulation of a story
Which Mandrakk can do

I've seen no indication of that.

Mandrakk was going to drain the Multiverse dry out of....Multiverse?
All of this is consistent with GM referring to The Bleed as the ink of the stories

No, but Mandrakk wasn't "draining the multiverse of ink."
This scan doesn't even include the word "ink."

i have already explained why The Bleed is 100% the ink of the Multiverse above. Please read it carefully

I did. As I've repeatedly said, I disagree with your conclusions. Your evidence says several different things at the same time. Is bleed the "life" of the story? Is it story "material?" Is it "meaning?" Is it "stories and characters?"

These are allegorical statements about the meaning of Final Crisis, it is not literal factual information about how we are meant to interpret what happened or what Mandrakk's abilities are. This is in addition to the fact that Grant Morrison's interview statements are not canon material and shouldn't be used as liberally for evidence as you are doing here.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Pretty sure he was called a "cosmically-charged editor" and WOG went on detail about the story stuff really referring to plot, but all the scans i got i put in his page in debates jungle, which doesn't seem to be around, and it was years ago so yeah.

But yeah, looking for the interviews might help cuz i remember it being the 4th wall form of stories

Found it

It comes from here, and seems to be already accepted on the wiki

It also somewhat establishes that the Hyperstory was a product of Mandrakks hax, and that Superman resisted plot-based reality warping with this quote

“Superman's metaconsciousness allows him to access a higher level of reality, reaching out towards the reader, moving beyond the panel borders and realising that he is in a “self-assembling hyper story." With the new transcendent awareness, Superman resists the awesome power of Mandrakk -- who, though corrupted by story, is still trapped within one -- and journeys home to save his wife”

Superman resisted the Hyperstory, which is hinted at being from the powers of Mandrakk, which is obviously consistent with what we know about Mandrakks dominion over Bleedspace.

However, i am still sketchy about the usage of this article as that it is written by a guy named Timothy Callahan, who seems to be a narrator of Final Crisis??? I dont know what to do here honestly.

Can someone knowledgeable help out here?

That is correct, yes.

@Firestorm808 @Qawsedf234 @Eficiente

What do you think?

 

[Deagonx]

I don't think it implies that the hyper-story is the product of Mandrakk. If anything it speaks to the fact that Mandrakk was in the same situation as Thought Robot

 

[NHTkenshin2]

I don't think it implies that the hyper-story is the product of Mandrakk. If anything it speaks to the fact that Mandrakk was in the same situation as Thought Robot

Are we positive this isnt referring to Mandrakks hax?

he is in a “self-assembling hyper story." With the new transcendent awareness, Superman resists the awesome power of Mandrakk

The narrator mentions the Hyperstory, and then follows it up with the reason why Superman wasn't affected by it, stating that it was by resisting “the awesome power of Mandrakk"
Or is this a reach?

 

[Quantu]

Tbh, I think Deagonx' take makes more sense from what I've seen.

 

[Deagonx]

Are we positive this isnt referring to Mandrakks hax?

No, but it's not clear enough to use.

And it wasn't written by Grant so it's entirely unusable either way.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Bump

That is correct, yes.

@Firestorm808 @Qawsedf234 @Eficiente

What do you think?

 

[Firestorm808]

Will reply later today.

 

[Xearsay]

You’re not the only one confused as to why he doesn’t have it. I’m confused why it was removed in the first place.

The thread where it got removed had 4 or more people(two of which were staff) in support of keeping plot manipulation. To which Antvasima even claimed that Mandrakk could keep plot manipulation. However towards the end of the thread, Antvasima would bring the topic up again and then issue the removal of plot manipulation off of one persons disagreement.

So it wasn’t exactly fair.

 

[Deagonx]

He never should've had it in the first place.

 

[Firestorm808]

Let's look at the requirements and see what is met.

Note: Mandrakk the Dark Monitor and Mister Mxyzptlk are currently listed as users on the ability page.

Plot Manipulation

Plot Manipulation is the ability to create, destroy, or control the plot that governs reality. Commonly found in metafictional stories, the plot can be understood as a fundamental aspect of reality once one views that reality as fictional. It is the description of the world that doesn't only...

vsbattles.fandom.com

• Summary
  • Plot Manipulation is the ability to control the plot that governs reality.
    • Commonly found in metafictional stories, the plot can be understood as a fundamental aspect of reality once one views that reality as fictional.
    • It is the description of the world that doesn't only describe, but determines, reality itself. As such, by altering the plot, one can achieve virtually any effect, in a similar fashion as with Reality Warping.
  • Despite that, plot manipulation has certain applications that are not exclusive, but characteristic for the power.
    • Such examples are stopping not just time, but the plot, or creating something that lacks any discernible properties until the plot describes what it is (e.g. a glass holding a fluid, that truly is no specific fluid until it is specified that the fluid is water).
  • Note that plot manipulation should not be listed just because a power is compared to a trope or otherwise metafiction is used as a metaphor.
    • For instance, a character that is lucky or fated to win like the protagonist of a story would only get this power if that is done by altering the plot. Otherwise it would simply be Supernatural Luck or Fate Manipulation.
  • Furthermore, regarding No-Limits Fallacies: Users can not simply be assumed to bring out any imaginable effect. They are assumed to be limited in both applications and scale to what they demonstrated or can be reasoned to be capable based on reliable statements.
• Possible Uses
  • Users may be able to determine how things will proceed by writing into the plot what is going to happen (emulating fate, causality and/or probability manipulation).
  • Users may be able transform things into other things by altering their description in the plot.
  • Users may be able to retroactively change the past, by changing what is recorded about the past in the plot.
  • Users may be able to control the action and/or thoughts of others by writing what they do or think into the plot.
  • Users may create things by writing that they are present into the plot.
  • Users may erase things by erasing any mention of them from the plot.

Can you please reiterate the requirements you meet and why?

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Snip

Will hopefully do. Probably not today though as that i am very busy

But for now, i kind of already answered this before

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-mandrakk-plot-manipulation-addition.149739/post-5503135

 

[Deagonx]

But for now, i kind of already answered this before

Whats important is that we discuss this within the context of wiki standards. So what's being requested isn't just an explanation, per se, but a specific criteria/criterion and the explanation for that specific criteria so that it can be assessed against what the wiki considers plot Manipulation.

 

[Firestorm808]

The ink, its the stuff that writes these stories, it writes the speech bubbles, it writes the characters in infinite different situations, it gives the story colour and life

Mandrakk consumes that ink, as well as uses it in many different ways, thats akin to literally using the plot itself to whatever your heart desires.

The description of Plot Manipulation says this

Lets go over some stuff here

1. “the plot can be understood as a fundamental aspect of reality once one views that reality as fictional.”
   1. The bleed views all universes like Comic panels, a product of 4-D vision.
   2. This is consistent with Grant Morrisons vision on the Multiverse, one that says that all of these Universes are their own narratives, existing as Linetimes inside a grand structure named Planetime. And then from a geometrically higher perspective, all universes are seen as fiction in comparison to Cubetime, The Real world
   3. The Bleed is very consistent with viewing these universes from said “Higher dimensional perspective" as that it has been called the very blood of these universes, which are established as Stories
   4. The Bleed has also been called the very substance of lifeto these Stories
      1. Mandrakk draining The Bleed is also compared to sucking all life out of the story
   5. Draining the bleed out of the Universe is draining the meaning, characters and stories out of the Universe
   6. All of this is consistent with GM referring to The Bleed as the ink of the stories
2. “the ability to control the plot that governs reality”
   1. A single drop of the bleed holds ultimate power that cannot be held or bottled (Ultimate power over the story, what else would holding the literal ink of the story give you exactly?)
   2. The Monitors are seen being capable of bottling and altering The Bleed
   3. Mandrakk is capable of holding the entire bleed over all 52 Universes in his hands
   4. Mandrakk is also capable of using the Bleed in combat.

In my opinion, Mandrakk and the Monitors all qualify for Plot Manipulation, The Bleed is the literal ink of the Story itself, the absolute most fundamental thing in the universe, we shouldn't assume Mandrakk cant alter the ink when he is shown having dominion over the ENTIRE Bleedspace, where even a single drop of this infinite substance gives you “ultimate power”

Mandrakk consuming the Ink also means in combat situation, if he wants to, he can simply stir the Bleed of a story to win in a situation, thus altering the very story to his very will, qualifying as Plot Manipulation.

Bleed is the metaphorical manifestation of Story, yes. But I don't see how Mandrakk altered a narrative/plot. Yeah, he can consume the Bleed as energy, but in terms of actions, what plot did he narratively manipulate?

If a story existed that "A boy went to the store and bought milk," did Mandrakk do something akin to changing it to "The boy did not go to the store and buy milk,"

 

[Xearsay]

If a story existed that "A boy went to the store and bought milk," did Mandrakk do something akin to changing it to "The boy did not go to the store and buy milk,"

Yes. During the end of Final Crisis, an exiled and depowered Mandrakk emerged from the abyss to bring about the end of all stories.

Scan 1

Scan 2

To defeat Mandrakk, Superman reactivated the Miracle Machine to wish for a happy ending, effectively overwriting Mandrakk bringing a bad ending to the narrative.

Scan 1

And that’s without even getting into all the Hyperstory stuff.

 

[Deagonx]

Yes. During the end of Final Crisis, an exiled and depowered Mandrakk emerged from the abyss to bring about the end of all stories.

No, absolutely not.

Neither of these scans -- not by the wildest stretch of imagination -- speak to the concept that Firestorm asked about:

If a story existed that "A boy went to the store and bought milk," did Mandrakk do something akin to changing it to "The boy did not go to the store and buy milk,"

What Firestorm is referring to, and what plot manipulation means on the wiki, is the ability to willfully alter or determine the course of events of a story that one sees as fictional. These scans do not indicate that at all. Mandrakk is attempting to destroy the multiverse. The stories end not because he sees them as fictional or because he has the ability to determine the events within the story, but because he's going to kill everyone and try to wipe out the multiverse. The two are not at all the same.

To defeat Mandrakk, Superman reactivated the Miracle Machine to wish for a happy ending, effectively overwriting Mandrakk bringing a bad ending to the narrative.

Nothing about this sequence of events indicates that A) Mandrakk was using plot manipulation to bring about a 'bad' ending or B) That Superman used the Miracle Machine to counter Mandrakk's plot manipulation. The Miracle Machine is described as a refinement of the Green Lantern's willpower technology, in that it manifests thoughts into reality. The Miracle Machine is high-tier reality manipulation, not plot manipulation.

And that’s without even getting into all the Hyperstory stuff.

Which we shouldn't, because it does not remotely support plot manipulation.

 

[Xearsay]

Mandrakk is attempting to destroy the multiverse. The stories end not because he sees them as fictional or because he has the ability to determine the events within the story, but because he's going to kill everyone and try to wipe out the multiverse. The two are not at all the same.

Your interpretation doesn’t make any sense.

“Black matter demons will devour these last traces of story.”

As shown in the quote above, Rox Ogama describes things around him as just traces of story, meaning there is a narrative aspect at play.

The Miracle Machine is described as a refinement of the Green Lantern's willpower technology, in that it manifests thoughts into reality. The Miracle Machine is high-tier reality manipulation, not plot manipulation.

Yes the Miracle Machine manifests thoughts into reality, however that doesn’t contradict plot manipulation. Going by Nix Uotan’s statements, the thoughts the Miracle Machine manifested into reality was Superman’s wish for a “happy ending.” Meaning the Miracle Machine altered the plot according to Superman's wish. If this wasn’t the case then Nix Uotan’s statement wouldn’t make any sense. You can’t just ignore certain parts of the story Deagon.

 

[Deagonx]

Your interpretation doesn’t make any sense.

“Black matter demons will devour these last traces of story.”

As shown in the quote above, Rox Ogama describes things around him as just traces of story, meaning there is a narrative aspect at play.

"A narrative aspect at play" is not sufficient for plot manipulation. Someone needs to demonstrate the ability to literally dictate what occurs as though they were an author of the story.

however that doesn’t contradict plot manipulation.

I didn't say it did. My point is that a "plot manipulation" interpretation isn't necessary and the information we have is not indicative of it.

Going by Nix Uotan’s statements, the thoughts the Miracle Machine manifested into reality was Superman’s wish for a “happy ending.” Meaning the Miracle Machine altered the plot according to Superman's wish.

No, it does not mean that. A "happy ending" does not need to be plot-related. You realize stories are not necessarily fictional, right?

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Allow me to simply answer the point of this thread hopefully in the most simple way possible

First of all, have we established the Bleed is the literal ink and lead of stories, it gives universes meaning, characters, life and stories. That much should be very undisputed, Grant makes that clear several times.

1. The bleed views all universes like Comic panels, a product of 4-D vision.
2. This is consistent with Grant Morrisons vision on the Multiverse, one that says that all of these Universes are their own narratives, existing as Linetimes inside a grand structure named Planetime. And then from a geometrically higher perspective, all universes are seen as fiction in comparison to Cubetime, The Real world
3. The Bleed is very consistent with viewing these universes from said “Higher dimensional perspective" as that it has been called the very blood of these universes, which are established as Stories
4. The Bleed has also been called the very substance of lifeto these Stories
   1. Mandrakk draining The Bleed is also compared to sucking all life out of the story
5. Draining the bleed out of the Universe is draining the meaning, characters and stories out of the Universe
6. All of this is consistent with GM referring to The Bleed as the ink of the stories

So this should fall under this description pretty easily, right?

Plot Manipulation is the ability to control the plot that governs reality.

• Commonly found in metafictional stories, the plot can be understood as a fundamental aspect of reality once one views that reality as fictional.
• It is the description of the world that doesn't only describe, but determines, reality itself. As such, by altering the plot, one can achieve virtually any effect, in a similar fashion as with Reality Warping.

Alright then, why does Mandrakk fall under the description of controlling the bleed?

Zillo explained that a single droplet of bleed gives you what is described as “Ultimate power". in this situation, Superman wanted that singular drop as that his Lois was dying and that was the only thing that can save her.

We look at Grant Morrisons interpretation of universes (where Lois resides), and Morrison makes it very clear that he views these universes as their own narratives. With these universes as narratives, and the Bleed as the Ink/lead of the narratives. What would this “Ultimate power” give while holding this mere drop of bleed exactly? The only plausible answer to that is simply controlling the story itself.
Again, think about it, what would the Ultimate power of the plot based ink give you exactly?

Which is funny, because Mandrakk owns the ENTIRE Bleedspace, he even uses it in combat, the very ink of the 52 universes is completely his, while only a droplet is gives you ultimate power over the story, Mandrakk has the whole OCEAN of this stuff. Why cant we assume the mf can manipulate the story? How exactly is that not a plausible argument? I mean hell, we have given “possibly" ratings to hax before, we cant even go for a Possibly Plot Manipulation for Mandrakk here? The same guy who is the owner of the ink/lead of stories and the same guy who has been described by one of the narrators of Final Crisis as a cosmically charged editor?

 

[Deagonx]

First of all, have we established the Bleed is the literal ink and lead of stories, it gives universes meaning, characters, life and stories. That much should be very undisputed, Grant makes that clear several times.

Sorry, but no, it's not undisputed nor should it be. We have several statements from Grant which state contradictory things that share a certain theme. I am more than willing to accept the notion that thematically or allegorically the bleed is meant to represent some of these things, but even if Grant had spoken clearly about it, something that exists solely in the realm of interviews has limited evidential value.

So this should fall under this description pretty easily, right?

Plot Manipulation is the ability to control the plot that governs reality.

No, because what is required for this ability is being able to dictate what occurs. We can't call bleed = story = plot = Mandrakk feeding on/controlling bleed is plot manipulation. Mandrakk literally needs to be able to decide what will occur by simply writing that it happens. His bleed stuff has nothing to do with that, it never gave him the ability to control reality.

Using bleedspace for blasts doesn't mean he's deciding what happens.

The same guy who is the owner of the ink/lead of stories and the same guy who has been described by one of the narrators of Final Crisis as a cosmically charged editor?

Timothy Callahan is just a CBR writer, he has no affiliation with DC.

 

[Firestorm808]

To clarify, we're acknowledging that Mandrakk hasn't changed the events of an existing narrative, the basic example of Plot Manipulation. We're assuming he can due to his ability to use the energy of the concept of story?

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Sorry, but no, it's not undisputed nor should it be. We have several statements from Grant which state contradictory things that share a certain theme. I am more than willing to accept the notion that thematically or allegorically the bleed is meant to represent some of these things, but even if Grant had spoken clearly about it, something that exists solely in the realm of interviews has limited evidential value.

Right here, in this scan, Mandrakk explicitly describes the Bleed as the blood of the 52 universes/stories in Final Crisis: Superman Beyond #2. The blood of these narratives

Grants interviews are Word of God on that scan, it gives more information on how much the Bleed dictates over the story. Its a WoG, like how much more can one ask for insight on what the author is talking about?

No, because what is required for this ability is being able to dictate what occurs. We can't call bleed = story = plot = Mandrakk feeding on/controlling bleed is plot manipulation

But he can though. Deagon, brother, please reread my arguments. Its very clear and objective that holding the Bleed gives you some power over story. Mandrakk has all of it, its his.

Using bleedspace for blasts doesn't mean he's deciding what happens.

Its evidence he can use it for whatever he wants.

To clarify, we're acknowledging that Mandrakk hasn't changed the events of an existing narrative, the basic example of Plot Manipulation. We're assuming he can due to his ability to use the energy of the concept of story?

Yeah, thats kind of the gist of this post.
Grant Morrison clearly thinks Mandrakk controls the Bleed, he consumes it and has used it.
More importantly, holding a drop of it gives you ultimate power over the story, Mandrakk has...a whole ocean of it

 

[Deagonx]

Right here, in this scan, Mandrakk explicitly describes the Bleed as the blood of the 52 universes/stories in Final Crisis: Superman Beyond #2. The blood of these narratives

No, you're editorializing. He never says stories or narratives, he says it's the "blood of 52 universes." That's all.

Grants interviews are Word of God on that scan, it gives more information on how much the Bleed dictates over the story. Its a WoG, like how much more can one ask for insight on what the author is talking about?

You could ask them to write it in the comic itself. The fact of the matter is, Grant doesn't have the final say about what goes into a comic, DC does.

But he can though. Deagon, brother, please reread my arguments. Its very clear and objective that holding the Bleed gives you some power over story. Mandrakk has all of it, its his.

I did read them, but we seem to disagree. I don't think it's clear or objective from the evidence, and I think it's actually the opposite, Mandrakk clearly does not have the ability to dictate the events that occur, and such a pivotal ability would have definitely been highlighted if it existed. It's not exactly a subtle concept.

 

[Firestorm808]

Do we have any example of someone using the Bleed to change an existing narrative?

 

[Xearsay]

"A narrative aspect at play" is not sufficient for plot manipulation. Someone needs to demonstrate the ability to literally dictate what occurs as though they were an author of the story.

It’s sufficient evidence that Mandrakk is interacting with the plot to carry out his goal of bringing a bad end to the story. If he wasn’t interacting with the plot then these statements wouldn’t make any sense.

No, it does not mean that. A "happy ending" does not need to be plot-related. You realize stories are not necessarily fictional, right?

In the context of the story, it has to be plot related since Superman made the wish for a happy ending when Mandrakk was interacting with the plot to bring about a bad ending.

 

[Deagonx]

It’s sufficient evidence that Mandrakk is interacting with the plot to carry out his goal of bringing a bad end to the story. If he wasn’t interacting with the plot then these statements wouldn’t make any sense.

First, it is not sufficient evidence of that. Second, it is not enough that he merely "interact" with the plot. He must be able to willfully dictate what occurs. He should be able to literally decide what characters do, say, and think.

In the context of the story, it has to be plot related since Superman made the wish for a happy ending when Mandrakk was interacting with the plot to bring about a bad ending.

That remains completely unsubstantiated.

 

[Firestorm808]

Can someone elaborate as to what actions the Bleed was used for and how? Is it done at a simple thought? How was mandrakk planning to end all story? Destroying it in general or through use of the Bleed? How did Superman use the Bleed to change things?