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issues with the thought robot page (also mandrakk)

I am pretty sure that Mandrakk was intended to be a representation of Dan Didio.
 
An insult to an editor is more like it, but he isn't the actual editor.
 
Antvasima said:
An insult to an editor is more like it, but he isn't the actual editor.
Click to expand...
an insult? because he represents everything thats bad (predetation, ugly, age, etc)? besides, it says that he is a "cosmic-charged editor in the form of mandrakk" wouldn't that be more like a actual analog (like the monitor being analogs to storytellers)?
 
I am pretty sure that he was intended as commentary on how Dan Didio has been systematically destroying DC Comics for a long time.
 
Antvasima said:
I am pretty sure that he was intended as commentary on how Dan Didio has been systematically destroying DC Comics for a long time.
Click to expand...
oh he did, have any examples? because that sounds like a insult, a mockery and tribute at the same time
 
Well, Grant Morrison said that Mandrakk was supposed to symbolise a DC editor, and I don't know of anybody else that qualifies as such a massive threat to the DC continuity. It may have been directed at somebody else though.
 
well

no one talked about them causing damage to the monitor sphere revealing the overvoid as collateral damage.

i'm uncertain if we agree with limbo being a void and thought robot having void manipulation for it

no one seemed to talk about the page linked in #4

i belive the power in both my post and "wall of scan" comment were accepted except resistance to time and reality manip.
 
Can you summarise what you want to change in a well-structured easy to understand manner?
 
remove quantumn, energy, matter, causality and information manipulation.

merge spatial and time manipulation and add void manipulation.

add conceptual manipulation and abstract existence.

resistance to concept and plot manipulation.

link the page on 4# as a note to justific word of god.

by preference add the scans and explanations, but the abstract existence needs them since it is purely word of god.
 
Takazuka said:
I agree with limbo and the moniter sphere getting a possible 1-A upgrade again aswell, given it was revealed in animal man that there are multiple writers besides grant morrisan that reside in limbo and make stories from limbo and incorperate them into realms lower than limbo. aswell as limbo being a void a non existing realm on a conceptual level. Now for the moniter sphere there may be more evidence to it being 1-A especially with how the moniters and the moniter sphere is in general. such as how the moniters exist in a realm with no dualities and only symmetries, the moniter sphere direclty touches the overvoid, the moniters are described as primal beings in a fundamental world that is non existent and existent at the same time, not to mention mandrakk was called a platonic concept and an avatar of a dc editor.
Click to expand...
1-A for the Monitor Sphere?

Given the Justice League will be going to the Monitor Sphere (specifically to Nil) in the next Justice League issue tomorrow, perhaps that can give us insight as to where the Monitor Sphere and Sixth Dimension lay in relation to each other.
 
I have read the issue, and it indeed seems like the Monitor Sphere has been retconned into being just another physical realm that the Justice League can visit.

In addition, Mandrakk the Dark Monitor has now been retconned into just being an aspect of The Monitor.

https://***************.to/Comic/Justice-League-2018/Issue-27

This likely warrants considerable DC Comics revisions from us, so I would greatly appreciate help with asking the members I linked to above to comment here.
 
Well shit.

No idea how I'd help since I haven't been keeping track of Post-Flashpoint comic book issues due to the sheer amount of retcons being set off everywhere.
 
Okay. Thanks anyway. I will probably have to start a revision thread about this later.
 
Well, in this sca, the Monitor Sphere was formed with the current universal structure and it exist at the edge of thing. Plus, the Justice League can visit the Monitor Sphere. This would mean that we should probably ignore its appearance in the Unexpected series since in this story, the Multiverse is above the Monitor Sphere (Nil). However, i guess the Monitor Sphere is still a higher dimensional place since it still exist beyond the Sphere of the Gods.
 
Antvasima said:
I have read the issue, and it indeed seems like the Monitor Sphere has been retconned into being just another physical realm that the Justice League can visit.
In addition, Mandrakk the Dark Monitor has now been retconned into just being an aspect of The Monitor.

https://***************.to/Comic/Justice-League-2018/Issue-27

This likely warrants considerable DC Comics revisions from us, so I would greatly appreciate help with asking the members I linked to above to comment here.
Click to expand...
It sounds like a re-telling of their origins, actually. The Monitor Race were described as "descendants" of the original Monitor, which makes sense here as them being "aspects" of the original Monitor created during the 52 era.

With that being the case, it could arguably elevate the Monitor's original standing, with Mandrakk having his 1-B classification while being a dark aspect of the Original.
 
It sounds like a re-telling of their origins, actually. The Monitor Race were described as "descendants" of the original Monitor, which makes sense here as them being "aspects" of the original Monitor created during the 52 era.

With that being the case, it could arguably elevate the Monitor's original standing, with Mandrakk having his 1-B classification while being a dark aspect of the Original.

That make sense. According to many people, the Monitor Sphere, Mandrakk ect were never intended to be 1-A or something like that.
 
Here's what I'm getting from the newest issue:

  • The Monitor Sphere still exists at the highest level of reality, literally on the edge of it. It was stated within the issue that Mar Novu went there so he could look for answers, stated by Alpheus to involve peering into the Void. That at least matches Morrison's depiction of it in Final Crisis.
  • While it wasn't outright stated, the fact that Superman and the others didn't realize they were going to Nil until they were already there means the obvious: Alpheus took them there. Personally I don't see a big problem with that, it would be weirder if one of the Brothers couldn't take others there.
  • This has been obvious for a long time now, but Snyder's cosmology involves separate Creations from the main DCU that exist elsewhere in the Void. This is a concept that was also a key element of Mike Carey's Lucifer series, where we even saw characters that were from other Creations.
  • The Sixth Dimension is a realm beyond Creation, and therefore beyond the Monitor Sphere. We already saw that in the flashback since Perpetua and her sons were standing around the actual Multiverse (or the first incarnation of it before it was remade).
The main thing here is the revelation that the Monitors were all splinters of Mar Novu. I will just say this: that doesn't invalidate what we saw Mandrakk doing in Final Crisis. The important thing to discuss is whether a full power Mar Novu should scale to Mandrakk or not.
 
@PrinceOfTheMorning Maybe Mar Novu should be scale to Mandrakk or maybe beyond since Original Mar Novu exist in the Sixth Dimension which is beyond the Monitor Sphere but maybe we should wait a little. But at this point, we have enough information to have a good idea of the current cosmology.
 
The Sixth Dimension seems to be "a dimension of possibility". Starman said Shayne was "made of possibility" in the recent issue, which reflects what we heard in the "Sixth Dimension arc" - all the future universe iterations Alpheus created in the Sixth Dimension, and the future we saw, were "possibilities".

As far as it concerns the tiering of the Monitors, I would say Mar Novu, and his brothers as well, should scale to Mandrakk, or higher. Alpheus in the Sixth Dimension was fully capable of forging an "possible future multiverse", which he intended to use to replace the current Multiverse, transferring all the life essences of people who had a place to the new world. He even mentions that he hopes the Judges of the Source would not notice the "missing time" in the new Multiverse. Within the Sixth Dimension, Alpheus could turn "possibility" into "reality".

That says something about the level of power the Sixth Dimension has over the Multiverse.
 
For the In Multiverse version, it is pretty obvious that the Monitors and the brother three are not as strong as they are within the Monitor Sphere and the Sixth Dimension for the brothers. In Multiverse Mandrakk (Rox Ogama) was strong enough to defeat the Spectre and Radiant but was defeated by a bunch of Supermans and Green Lantern. Even the In Multiverse World Forger was knocked out (very briefly) by Superman empowered with many suns. So, the In multiverse version of the brothers and Mandrakk should be at the tier 2 maybe 2-C and for the regular In Multiverse Monitors, they should be 4-B since Green Lanterns can match them.
 
Nix Uotan no-sold the destruction of Universe-51, way beyond 4-B. It wasn't just the GLC that attacked Rox Ogama, it was the Supermen of the Multiverse as well as the Pax Dei, the GLC just delivered the final blow. And the poetic nature of his defeat combined with the meta narrative going on makes me think Nix Uotan and his plothax had a little something to do with it as well.
 
@PrinceOfTheMorning i forgot about Nix Uotan. Yeah, Nix Uotan is superiror to the average Monitors and you may be right about Rox Ogama defeat but i think he was somewhat weaker because he wasn't in the Monitor Sphere correct me if i'm wrong. I think 2-C for the strongest In Multiverse Monitors could work. But still.
 
Elizio33 said:
@PrinceOfTheMorning Yeah, Nix Uotan is superiror to the average Monitors
Click to expand...
That's the thing, at that time Uotan was only an average Monitor, in fact he could even be below average considering his youth (relative to others) and relatively low standing compared to some other Monitors. He didn't become superior to normal Monitors until he became the Superjudge.

Edit: When he tanked Universe-51's destruction I mean.
 
That's the thing, at that time Uotan was only an average Monitor, in fact he could even be below average considering his youth (relative to others) and relatively low standing compared to some other Monitors. He didn't become superior to normal Monitors until he became the Superjudge.

I thought Nix Uotan was already Superjudge when he confronted Rox Ogama?
 
@POTM

So how do you suggest that we should solve these scaling problems? Also, would you prefer to create a new revision thread for this purpose?
 
@PrinceOfTheMorning It's all good! Well, should we consider the In Multiverse Monitors being matched by Green Lanterns as an outlier? What do you think about the 2-C or Low 2-C In Multiverse Monitor?
 
@Ant If no one else does it by next week, I wouldn't mind. I'm too busy with a weird work schedule this week to do the subject justice though. There's a ton of context that needs to be taken into account.

The major thing I would hate to see ignored is the true nature of these beings. The original/"true" selves of each brother are smaller but relative in size and dimensional complexity to all of the DCU. Similarly, each of Mar Novu's aspects were smaller, but relative in size and dimensional complexity to the entire Orrery of Worlds. Problem is, it's easy to get caught up in the fact that we usually see these beings in infinitely smaller forms inside those lower dimensions. That's why I'm an advocate for multiple keys.

  • For example, Mandrakk being a splinter of Mar Novu doesn't mean Final Crisis never happened and he's weaker than COIE Monitor/Anti-Monitor. It lines up rather well with the idea that there's a major difference in power between the brothers we see in-multiverse and their true selves from beyond it.
 
Okay. Thank you for the help. Several keys might be a good idea, yes.
 
Takazuka said:
I agree with limbo and the moniter sphere getting a possible 1-A upgrade again aswell, given it was revealed in animal man that there are multiple writers besides grant morrisan that reside in limbo and make stories from limbo and incorperate them into realms lower than limbo. aswell as limbo being a void a non existing realm on a conceptual level. Now for the moniter sphere there may be more evidence to it being 1-A especially with how the moniters and the moniter sphere is in general. such as how the moniters exist in a realm with no dualities and only symmetries, the moniter sphere direclty touches the overvoid, the moniters are described as primal beings in a fundamental world that is non existent and existent at the same time, not to mention mandrakk was called a platonic concept and an avatar of a dc editor.
Click to expand...
Welp, I made a CRT that upgraded them to 1-A before. Which I believe was reasonable back then due to the stuff I gathered from both the comics and interview with GM. Apparently it was remove with little to no discussion/debate and the reasoning being its just bullshit.

the Monitor Sphere isnt part of Creation, like the Overvoid its an archetypal realm that exists beyond the DCU. It was even stated to directly touch the Overvoid. It doesnt just exist at the edge of creation. Its outside of it.

Morrison: Limbo is what's been erased, isn't it? It's literally the characters that are almost forgotten. Almost whited-out. It's the characters that have been dumped from the continuity for one reason or another. When I visited the idea in Animal Man back in the eighties, most of those characters were forgotten sixties characters. But now, the place is populated by these nineties Blood Pack and Hero Hotline guys! I've just always loved it as a concept. In the case of Superman Beyond, which was like a Yellow Submarine, Jason of the Argonauts tale, I wanted to take my super-Argonauts to that place at the very edge of art where all these forgotten ideas live. The last outpost of the DCU proper before the archetypal Monitor World and the Overvoid

1

The Monitor-Mind extends a probe and was shocked by the concept of stories

2

The Monitor-Mind has no defenses against stories. The probe withdraws and split into two, one half turned into the Thought Robot, the "mystery of the silent sentinel" haunts the Monitor-mind and infected it with questions and narratives. Legend takes place and the contagion spreads.

Note that the Thought Robot here is standing the Overvoid as the Monitor-Sphere still doesnt exist

3

The "mystery of the silent sentinel" is, however, in itself a story, which sparks the story of the race of monitors (story begets story), who are effectively descendents of the Monitor-mind.

The story of the Monitors is the story of the Monitor-mind

GM: No. Monitor-Mind has worked through its own Ultimate Story and spared Nix Uotan to be its sole representative and interface with the Multiverse. I see Uotan's 'hyperhero' role in the DCU as a cross between the Silver Surfer and Doctor Who (particularly the Earthbound Jon Pertwee iteration of the character).
 
Another thing tht i forgot to mention in my summary.

In their Battle their caused enough damage to the monitor sphere that the overvoid got visible as collateral damage, so whatever is the level of existence of the monitor sphere, CAS and mandrakk highly damaged It.
 
What we know so far:

We now know that all the Monitor Race in the 52 era were aspects of the original Monitor, Mar Novu.

The Monitor Sphere came into existence with the current iteration of the Multiverse. It exists at "the edge of things", and it should still have its properties from "Final Crisis".

Mar Novu, Mobius and Alpheus are each "Monitors", and they are the only three beings in Creation other than Perpetua who could enter the Sixth Dimension before the Source Wall broke. That should mean, within the Sixth Dimension at least, the Monitors would scale to above Mandrakk and, potentially, the Thought Robot.

Did I get that right?
 
@POTM

Thank you for the help, although it is probably good if you inform me via PM what you have in mind first, so the situation does not get out of hand.
 
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