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New lucifer issue just released
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DC Comics Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Matthew_Schroeder
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http://***************.to/Comic/Lucifer-2016/Issue-14?id=101300
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- #163
Now that I've read more things, I'm starting to disagree that the mainstream DC Multiverse is just 11th-Dimensional. The quotes from Grant Morrison we are using as evidence all come from outside actual Comicbooks, and none of them bring up 11-Dimensional. They simply mention that he used certain concets from Superstring-Theory, particulary parallel universes, Brane-Space and a Bulk-Space, and Quantum Vibrations.
I think it would be better to use actual comic evidence.
I think it would be better to use actual comic evidence.
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Well, I have a hard time interpreting it as anything other than that he has been trying to follow the multiversal structure established by real world science for the small 52 universes-sized local multiverse.
However, he also established that this is just one of an endless amount of clusters.
However, he also established that this is just one of an endless amount of clusters.
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- #165
Local Multiverse = / = Totality of the Bleed-Multiverse which has Infinite Universes =/= Hypertime =/= Totality of the Multiverse, though.
He also applied many concepts that came from Wildstorm Comics, such as the Bleed. The Wildstorm Comic Planetary also established the Multiverse in its totality as 196,833-Dimensional, and that particular comic was released after Wildstorm merged with DC, and would later have a crossover with Batman.
He also applied many concepts that came from Wildstorm Comics, such as the Bleed. The Wildstorm Comic Planetary also established the Multiverse in its totality as 196,833-Dimensional, and that particular comic was released after Wildstorm merged with DC, and would later have a crossover with Batman.
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I think that Grant Morrison's current version of the multiverse is the most prominent, recent, and reliable version of what applies to DC proper.
Wildstorm and DC were initially treated as separate entities. Just because one concept was later imported, does not mean that all of it was. And we definitely cannot apply Warren Ellis' standards to Mandrakk and the Thought Robot, which definitely follow Grant Morrison's cosmology.
Wildstorm and DC were initially treated as separate entities. Just because one concept was later imported, does not mean that all of it was. And we definitely cannot apply Warren Ellis' standards to Mandrakk and the Thought Robot, which definitely follow Grant Morrison's cosmology.
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- #167
You didn't get my point at all, the Wildstorm Comic I brought shares continuity with DC. Morrison himself treats everything as canon. He brings that up numerous times during interviews. He doesn't ignore past information, he just fuses it all together. His very concept of Hypertime, as he explained it, is basically to say that every single fictional DC storyline, and derivation and interpretation of said storyline happened, and that it is all simultaneously true rather than contradictory.
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http://web.archive.org/web/20091027095511/geocities.com/hypertime2000/features/morrison.html
Home > Features > Morrison's Hypertime
If you visit Warren Ellis' message boards at his official website, you can read a discussion about Ellis' conversation with Morrison over Hypertime. Ellis was so impressed by Morrison's definition of the concept that he said, "I have seen the glory." While I wouldn't even go that far, here's what Ellis says about the concept, taken from his message board...
"It's one of those things that's difficult to capture on paper if you're not the originator, I suspect. Firstly, it wasn't set up to explain continuity glitches. That's not its point, as described to me. It's...
It's Grant trying to describe a new physics for fictional reality. And it's time considered as a volume. a three-dimensional artifact.
My recall is flawed. We were drinking heavily. There could be crucial mistakes in the following:
Take a glass sphere studded all over with holes, and then drive a long stick right through the middle of it, passing exactly through the center of the volume. That's the base DC timeline. Jab another stick through right next to it, but at a different angle, so that they're touching at one point. That's an Elseworlds story. Another stick, this one rippled, placed close in so that it touches the first stick at two or three points. That's the base Marvel timeline. Perhaps others follow the line of the DC stick for a while before diverging, a slow diagonal collision along it before peeling off. This sphere contains the timeline of all comic-book realities, and they theoretically all have access to each other. In high time, at the top of the sphere, is OUR reality, and we can look down on the totality of Hypertime, the entire volume.
Hypertime is a tool for the consideration of fictional reality.
I think that's what he said, anyway. "
http://web.archive.org/web/20000615...eruniverse.com/newsarama/newsarama010899.html
"We live outside what is known as the DC or Marvel Universes, because we can look into it them imaging those comics are real and all they are doing is telling us a real story. The Marvel universe does exist, the Hulk will still be here when Stan Lee is gone. Batman is here and Bob Kane is dead. So it's a real universe to a certain extent. Those characters have an existence beyond their creators.
The idea of Hypertime is that it's the first time that a character in the DCU understands the universe that he lives in and gets outside and looks back at it, and sees that there's more than one timeline. There's always a timeline, and the main timeline is always the DCU. This current timeline we live in started with the Monitor and the Anti-Monitor causing all these problems, and one universe existed from there. But from outside the DC Universe, as readers, we know that's not the way it happened. From inside, they don't know - they're at the mercy of forces that alter their timeline constantly. Finally, they're getting to see what that is.
Say something like Watchmen exists in its own continuity or timeline...sometimes that timeline will cross the DC Universe timeline, and carry with it something that changes the DCU. For instance, Alan Moore's ideas in Watchmen or Frank Miller's ideas in the Dark Knight impact with the DCU and change it forever, so it suddenly appears as grim for ten years.
Also, suddenly ideas can come back from pre-crisis, and come around in a loop and impact again, which is what we're getting now with slightly brighter superheroes that we haven't seen for a while. We're not going back to the past, the whole idea is to suggest that every single thing that as ever existed in DC and every other comic universe is true, because we know it, and we can buy it and read it. The people who live in it don't know it - they don't know that they've ever had multiple Earths that didn't have superheroes during the war, or did, depending on which timeline they live in.
http://web.archive.org/web/19991004...runiverse.com/newsarama/newsarama012299b.html
While throwing around several ideas, the team finally settled on a story where Superboy visits different Elseworlds. "We thought it'd be great to establish that there was a way - but not necessarily an easy way - to visit these Elseworlds, to say that everything DC publishes fits together and matters in some way or other," explained Kesel. "I wrote up a memo outlining what we wanted to do, convinced it would be shot down in flames. I almost had a heart attack when Mike Carlin gave it a thumbs up! Then he threw in the clincher - that we should work with Grant Morrison, Mark Waid and editor Dan Raspler on this, since they were starting up something very similar." The similar "something" of course was Hypertime. As Raspler would later point out to Kesel, it seemed fitting to everyone to involve Superboy in Hypertime since, in many ways, "he was the character who really got the short end of the stick in Crisis."
http://web.archive.org/web/19991018181652/http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dunes/7637/comics/wiz.html
Ignoring all mentions of Real Life and Marvel Comics, Hypertime is meant to be the story of DC. If it was ever published, it is true, and it is contained in it. Of course, there are levels beyond Hypertime, such as Limbo which is beyond the Story of DC, and in it the entire Story is contained within the Book of Infinite Pages, and further beyond that is the Monitor Sphere, which is a "Self-Assembling Hyper-Story".
It is also worth mentioning that the Monitor-Sphere is the final sphere of creation, separated from the Overvoid solely by the Source Wall. There can't be a larger creation outside of it because it is, by definition, the highest level of creation.
Home > Features > Morrison's Hypertime
If you visit Warren Ellis' message boards at his official website, you can read a discussion about Ellis' conversation with Morrison over Hypertime. Ellis was so impressed by Morrison's definition of the concept that he said, "I have seen the glory." While I wouldn't even go that far, here's what Ellis says about the concept, taken from his message board...
"It's one of those things that's difficult to capture on paper if you're not the originator, I suspect. Firstly, it wasn't set up to explain continuity glitches. That's not its point, as described to me. It's...
It's Grant trying to describe a new physics for fictional reality. And it's time considered as a volume. a three-dimensional artifact.
My recall is flawed. We were drinking heavily. There could be crucial mistakes in the following:
Take a glass sphere studded all over with holes, and then drive a long stick right through the middle of it, passing exactly through the center of the volume. That's the base DC timeline. Jab another stick through right next to it, but at a different angle, so that they're touching at one point. That's an Elseworlds story. Another stick, this one rippled, placed close in so that it touches the first stick at two or three points. That's the base Marvel timeline. Perhaps others follow the line of the DC stick for a while before diverging, a slow diagonal collision along it before peeling off. This sphere contains the timeline of all comic-book realities, and they theoretically all have access to each other. In high time, at the top of the sphere, is OUR reality, and we can look down on the totality of Hypertime, the entire volume.
Hypertime is a tool for the consideration of fictional reality.
I think that's what he said, anyway. "
http://web.archive.org/web/20000615...eruniverse.com/newsarama/newsarama010899.html
"We live outside what is known as the DC or Marvel Universes, because we can look into it them imaging those comics are real and all they are doing is telling us a real story. The Marvel universe does exist, the Hulk will still be here when Stan Lee is gone. Batman is here and Bob Kane is dead. So it's a real universe to a certain extent. Those characters have an existence beyond their creators.
The idea of Hypertime is that it's the first time that a character in the DCU understands the universe that he lives in and gets outside and looks back at it, and sees that there's more than one timeline. There's always a timeline, and the main timeline is always the DCU. This current timeline we live in started with the Monitor and the Anti-Monitor causing all these problems, and one universe existed from there. But from outside the DC Universe, as readers, we know that's not the way it happened. From inside, they don't know - they're at the mercy of forces that alter their timeline constantly. Finally, they're getting to see what that is.
Say something like Watchmen exists in its own continuity or timeline...sometimes that timeline will cross the DC Universe timeline, and carry with it something that changes the DCU. For instance, Alan Moore's ideas in Watchmen or Frank Miller's ideas in the Dark Knight impact with the DCU and change it forever, so it suddenly appears as grim for ten years.
Also, suddenly ideas can come back from pre-crisis, and come around in a loop and impact again, which is what we're getting now with slightly brighter superheroes that we haven't seen for a while. We're not going back to the past, the whole idea is to suggest that every single thing that as ever existed in DC and every other comic universe is true, because we know it, and we can buy it and read it. The people who live in it don't know it - they don't know that they've ever had multiple Earths that didn't have superheroes during the war, or did, depending on which timeline they live in.
http://web.archive.org/web/19991004...runiverse.com/newsarama/newsarama012299b.html
While throwing around several ideas, the team finally settled on a story where Superboy visits different Elseworlds. "We thought it'd be great to establish that there was a way - but not necessarily an easy way - to visit these Elseworlds, to say that everything DC publishes fits together and matters in some way or other," explained Kesel. "I wrote up a memo outlining what we wanted to do, convinced it would be shot down in flames. I almost had a heart attack when Mike Carlin gave it a thumbs up! Then he threw in the clincher - that we should work with Grant Morrison, Mark Waid and editor Dan Raspler on this, since they were starting up something very similar." The similar "something" of course was Hypertime. As Raspler would later point out to Kesel, it seemed fitting to everyone to involve Superboy in Hypertime since, in many ways, "he was the character who really got the short end of the stick in Crisis."
http://web.archive.org/web/19991018181652/http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dunes/7637/comics/wiz.html
Ignoring all mentions of Real Life and Marvel Comics, Hypertime is meant to be the story of DC. If it was ever published, it is true, and it is contained in it. Of course, there are levels beyond Hypertime, such as Limbo which is beyond the Story of DC, and in it the entire Story is contained within the Book of Infinite Pages, and further beyond that is the Monitor Sphere, which is a "Self-Assembling Hyper-Story".
It is also worth mentioning that the Monitor-Sphere is the final sphere of creation, separated from the Overvoid solely by the Source Wall. There can't be a larger creation outside of it because it is, by definition, the highest level of creation.
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Hmm. Perhaps, although the problem is that hypertime is an old concept that DC just began to delve into, and has since abolished, and that it would per definition include franchises beyond that of DC Comics itself, which is all that the Monitor-Sphere encapsules.
In addition, my impression was that the Monitor-Sphere strictly encapsuled and kept track of the local 52-universe multiverse cluster, not all of them combined.
In addition, my impression was that the Monitor-Sphere strictly encapsuled and kept track of the local 52-universe multiverse cluster, not all of them combined.
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- #170
Hypertime is mentioned in the New 52 storylines. It definitely hasn't been abandoned.
No, Monitor-Sphere exists as the ultimate and primal level of existence, right next to the Overvoid. Even Limbo which is beyond the story of DC Comics is a tiny disc floating in it.
No, Monitor-Sphere exists as the ultimate and primal level of existence, right next to the Overvoid. Even Limbo which is beyond the story of DC Comics is a tiny disc floating in it.
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Well, I remember reading interviews in which it was stated that hypertime had been abandoned, but perhaps the concept has been reinstated again?
Anyway, within Countdown the Monitors were strictly stated to monitor the 52 local universes, not all of the infinite clusters that were established during Multiversity.
I find it very hard to accept that 52 universes would require a 196833-dimensional reality to sustain them, and such an existence would vastly transcend cubic time/hypertime in any case.
Anyway, within Countdown the Monitors were strictly stated to monitor the 52 local universes, not all of the infinite clusters that were established during Multiversity.
I find it very hard to accept that 52 universes would require a 196833-dimensional reality to sustain them, and such an existence would vastly transcend cubic time/hypertime in any case.
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Also, you know how I feel about inconsistencies between different writers, that cannot be reconciled, no matter how hard Morrison might try.
For example, if hypertime is supposed to contain all of fiction, it automatically fails, given that we feature structures and concepts that vastly transcend such minor attempts for containments.
For example, if hypertime is supposed to contain all of fiction, it automatically fails, given that we feature structures and concepts that vastly transcend such minor attempts for containments.
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I'm not trying to interfere here but even in Final crisis events secret files revealed that bleedspace contains multiverses .
http://i.imgur.com/6IVsc9M.jpg?1
http://i.imgur.com/6IVsc9M.jpg?1
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- #174
What Countdown stated is frankly irrelevant to what is established in Final Crisis and Morrison's own Multiverse map. The monitors do Monitor the Orrery, yes, as the Orrery of Worlds are the original 52 Universes, but the fact of the matter is that Monitor-Sphere is the highest level of existence.
This is repeatedly shown in Superman Beyond 3D. Limbo exists outside of the story of DC Comics, being a place of pure nothingness with no heroes, no villains, no drama and no conflict, and within it was the Book of Infinite Pages that encompasses Hypertime, essentially. The story of DC was within that book.
Limbo itself is a tiny lower-dimensional disc at Monitor Sphere, which is the most primal level of existence. In fact parts of it literally fall out into the Overvoid. And on a metatextual level, when the Thought Robot emerges on it for the first time, he feels the presence and breath of the reader.
This is repeatedly shown in Superman Beyond 3D. Limbo exists outside of the story of DC Comics, being a place of pure nothingness with no heroes, no villains, no drama and no conflict, and within it was the Book of Infinite Pages that encompasses Hypertime, essentially. The story of DC was within that book.
Limbo itself is a tiny lower-dimensional disc at Monitor Sphere, which is the most primal level of existence. In fact parts of it literally fall out into the Overvoid. And on a metatextual level, when the Thought Robot emerges on it for the first time, he feels the presence and breath of the reader.
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- #176
I never said Hypertime contains all of fiction. I said it contains all of DC.
The difference between Morrison's approach and yours is that he is well aware of all the different interpretations, lores, cosmologies, continuties and events, and their self-contradictory nature, but rather than drive himself tired and infuriated trying to reconcile it all under one cohesive singular cosmology, he embraces all of them as all being mutionally true.
The difference between Morrison's approach and yours is that he is well aware of all the different interpretations, lores, cosmologies, continuties and events, and their self-contradictory nature, but rather than drive himself tired and infuriated trying to reconcile it all under one cohesive singular cosmology, he embraces all of them as all being mutionally true.
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Hmm. Okay. I am still uncertain if Morrison ever intended to incorporate Warren Ellis' higher-dimensional structure, given that he refers to regular 11-dimensional multiversal string theory, but I am extremely busy, and do not have the energy to argue about it.
Tier 1-B Thought Robot and Mandrakk then?
Are any other characters affected?
Tier 1-B Thought Robot and Mandrakk then?
Are any other characters affected?
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- #178
1-B or High 1-B, both work. I prefer the later. Scales to Thought Robot, Mandrakk, Captain Adam. Oh, and also Dax Novu and The Empty Hand, but those have no profiles.
Information on Limbo:
Information on Limbo:
- Limbo is outside the Multiverse.
- There are no stories , no heroes, no events on Limbo.
- Inside Limbo is the Book of Infinite Pages which contains all of existence inside it .
- After coming in contact with the Overvoid, Captain Adam states that there is no duality, only symmetry .
- When coming into Monitor-Sphere, Superman / Thought Robot feels the breathing and presence of the reader (In the original comic in 3D, his hand "reaches out" to try touching you), and sees how tiny Limbo is from his new perspective .
- He describes how everything is different, more profound, more meaningful and absolute in the Monitor's realm .
- The Monitor-Sphere is a realm of pure thought (information), also called The Blank, The Nil, The Gone. There, both form and meaning surrender to the Overvoid.
- The Monitors are described as "essential natures", and as "Primal forms in a fundamental world". Monitor-Sphere is also the realm where the story has its origi .
- Monitor-Sphere is described as a being a "Self-Assembling Hyper Story" .
- During their fight, the Thought Robot literally shoves Mandrakk down into the Overvoid. Showing how the Monitor-Sphere is the original and highest level of reality, touching The Void .
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- #180
He literally created the Thought Robot. He held its pure energy in his hands and send it to the Monitor-Sphere where it materialized in its form.
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They are two mandrakk profiles
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- #186
It must be a glitch.
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It still showns two Mandrakk profiles
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While searching the character profiles it still shows two Mandrakk profiles
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Does Elaine have 4th wall awareness? or is it because she's nigh omniscient that she can act as the comics narrator?
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- #194
Probably a mix of both, but she is clearly written as 4th Wall-Aware in the current Lucifer Run. I wonder if that'll ever go anywhere.
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Monitor and Antimonitor are the aspect of original monitor . They were born at the dawn of time while Mandrakk existed before the DC multiverse was created and over saw the flaw
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- #197
No, they don't scale. Monitor Sphere was never a thing during Crisis on Infinite Earths.
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- #199
In addition, Mandrakk and the Monitor Pantheon were created "after" the original Monitor and Anti-Monitor happened and failed their purposes. So they are not created equal, either.
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