DBS Manga: Super Saiyan Blue's multiplier

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Ngl you might actually have to make a thread to determine if the movie should be considered canon to the manga, that should determine things.

I accept the movie as a canon, the evidence is convincing. I still think in-universe statements are more reliable for that form in particular.

 

[Ped2018]

I need this to be a quick thread

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

I needed this to be a fast CRT because I was about to upgrade Early DB back to 5-C. I already did it, so this can take as long as it wants, Idrc

 

[Ednaxel2]

I'll see if I can get more staff on this

 

[Damage3245]

I thought that the statement given in the OP worked well enough as a "direct statement" for our standards (10% of one transformation =< another transformation), but fair enough if that is insufficient for the site standards.

Even if you do show that a powerup makes someone scale to something that's, say, 20x stronger than they were previously, we do not generalise that to being a 20x amp when their base increases, for reasons clearly outlined in our standards. In other words, it's not treated as a generally-applicable multiplier, it's just treated as scaling.

Are transformations in Dragon Ball ever inconsistent like that? Like, we don't assume the Super Saiyan multiplier works as 50x in the Frieza Saga and then as an unknown amp in other sagas?

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

This should not be a multiplier. Our standards on Multipliers are very explicitly clear:

@UchihaSlayer96 @Damage3245 @Maverick_Zero_X @DarkDragonMedeus @LordTracer @Elizhaa @Dereck03

What are you all doing using multipliers inferred by scaling of all things?

We should not have 7 staff members accepting something that objectively goes against site standards.

If you want things to operate differently, change the standards.

But until you do, multipliers have to come from direct statements, without being reasoned from something else.

Even if you do show that a powerup makes someone scale to something that's, say, 20x stronger than they were previously, we do not generalise that to being a 20x amp when their base increases, for reasons clearly outlined in our standards. In other words, it's not treated as a generally-applicable multiplier, it's just treated as scaling.

"This form is roughly equal to 10% of the other form" is a direct statement, I don't know what else to tell you.

 

[Agnaa]

I thought that the statement given in the OP worked well enough as a "direct statement" for our standards (10% of one transformation =< another transformation), but fair enough if that is insufficient for the site standards.

I can't really tell, since the link's broken. A variety of contextual things could make that fine, or invalid.

Are transformations in Dragon Ball ever inconsistent like that? Like, we don't assume the Super Saiyan multiplier works as 50x in the Frieza Saga and then as an unknown amp in other sagas?

We assume inconsistency by default

Another thing to keep in mind is that multipliers are not necessarily constant. For example: If a character is twice as fast as another at one point in time, that might not apply at any other point in time. Likewise if a technique is at one point twice as strong as another, that might change when the mastery of the techniques changes.

 

[Damage3245]

I can't really tell, since the link's broken. A variety of contextual things could make that fine, or invalid.

If there are contextual things that could potentially make it fine, maybe don't call out other staff members on accepting something "that objectively goes against site standards"?

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

We assume inconsistency by default

It is stated that the form itself gives a 50x boost to the user's base form, I have no idea how inconsistency can be assumed in good faith in this case. In the case of the site standards, the example used really doesn't apply to Dragon Ball. Forms don't change in multiplier.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

If there are contextual things that could potentially make it fine, maybe don't call out other staff members on accepting something "that objectively goes against site standards"?

I concur with this.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Yeah, this was a bad and unnecessary call especially for Dragon Ball where forms are pretty much the same always. Also there was no significant reasoning involved, but if this is the case then 50x would be the better option. But I really don't think 10% of a form is 100% of the other is that significant or indirect. It's clearly a 10x thing and that is a lowball already which fits with the general consensus on the site.

 

[Agnaa]

If there are contextual things that could potentially make it fine, maybe don't call out other staff members on accepting something "that objectively goes against site standards"?

Ah yeah mb, I thought it was referring to other characters, not the amp of other transformations from the same characters.

After re-reading over the OP another 10 times I think I see that as the point it's trying to make.

Y'all should make those sorts of things more clear (wtf is SSG? what is an SS version of SSG?), or not ask random people who have never seen Dragon Ball for input.

I'll go delete my earlier comment and dip then. I don't know what being a "Super Saiyan level with the power of Super Saiyan God" means, or how to judge whether that's more reliable or not.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Ah yeah mb, I thought it was referring to other characters, not the amp of other transformations from the same characters.

After re-reading over the OP another 10 times I think I see that as the point it's trying to make.

Y'all should make those sorts of things more clear (wtf is SSG? what is an SS version of SSG?), or not ask random people who have never seen Dragon Ball for input.

I'll go delete my earlier comment and dip then. I don't know what being a "Super Saiyan level with the power of Super Saiyan God" means, or how to judge whether that's more reliable or not.

I don't know why they'd do that.

They should've at least pointed towards my post, which explains in detail what the point is, in case we do call someone who doesn't know about Dragon Ball. Although we would like input from any staff to solve the dispute.

 

[Agnaa]

10x argument: Goku and Vegeta are portrayed as equals in basically every instance leading to the tournament. (Chapter 5 and Chapter 7)

Yet, Vegeta couldn't beat Hit's timeskip as a Super Saiyan Blue. Later, Goku manages to shorten and beat Hit's timeskip as a Super Saiyan God, an inferior form.
Whis explains the reason why Vegeta couldn't do the same thing is because he wasn't even at 10%, implying 10% of SSB is roughly comparable to SSG's full power.


50x argument: We currently accept the movie as canon to the manga. In the promo material, Super Saiyan Blue is said to be "Super Saiyan version of Super Saiyan God", several times. This is also stated in the movie. Thus, it's supposed that the multiplier that Super Saiyan gives (50x) to a regular Saiyan is also applied to the SSG form.

This post helps, but leaves me with some questions:

1. If SSB is meant to be stacked on top of SSG (as the 50x argument implies), how could Vegeta's flawed SSB be weaker than it?
2. What is the content of that "Vegeta's not even 10%" scan? It's not working for me.

Without answers to those, I can't confidently answer.

While I am leaning towards 50x ("you're not even 10%" seems like less reliable reasoning than "this is just stacking a prior transformation at the same time"), I feel like it'd sort of objectively have to be one of those or the other.

If SSB and SSG are separable, than the claim that SSB is normal Super Saiyan stacked on SSG would have to be false.

If SSB and SSG aren't separable, then Vegeta failing to overpower Hit while Goku could could only mean that Goku got stronger, or Hit got weaker. As using SSB would entail using SSG.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

This post helps, but leaves me with some questions:

1. If SSB is meant to be stacked on top of SSG (as the 50x argument implies), how could Vegeta's flawed SSB be weaker than it?
2. What is the content of that "Vegeta's not even 10%" scan? It's not working for me.

Without answers to those, I can't confidently answer.

While I am leaning towards 50x ("you're not even 10%" seems like less reliable reasoning than "this is just stacking a prior transformation at the same time"), I feel like it'd sort of objectively have to be one of those or the other.

If SSB and SSG are separable, than the claim that SSB is normal Super Saiyan stacked on SSG would have to be false.

If SSB and SSG aren't separable, then Vegeta failing to overpower Hit while Goku could could only mean that Goku got stronger, or Hit got weaker. As using SSB would entail using SSG.

IMO, it's just a Goku being stronger thing. This is the statement,btw.



But you can clearly see even SSJ Goku faring better. And tbf, the statement talks about Goku's God form in comparison to Vegeta's Blue form in specific,not the forms in general.



The counters were that Goku and Vegeta were shown to be relative in strength, but afaik those statements were pre U6 vs U7 arc, so I dunno how much value they'd hold.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

This post helps, but leaves me with some questions:

1. If SSB is meant to be stacked on top of SSG (as the 50x argument implies), how could Vegeta's flawed SSB be weaker than it?
2. What is the content of that "Vegeta's not even 10%" scan? It's not working for me.

Without answers to those, I can't confidently answer.

While I am leaning towards 50x ("you're not even 10%" seems like less reliable reasoning than "this is just stacking a prior transformation at the same time"), I feel like it'd sort of objectively have to be one of those or the other.

If SSB and SSG are separable, than the claim that SSB is normal Super Saiyan stacked on SSG would have to be false.

If SSB and SSG aren't separable, then Vegeta failing to overpower Hit while Goku could could only mean that Goku got stronger, or Hit got weaker. As using SSB would entail using SSG.

This is the statement.


Super Saiyan Blue, formely named "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan", is described as "Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God", thus, they are connected. The reason why it's supposed it's stacked, is because, Super Saiyan is 50 times stronger than Base Form, this is currently accepted.

Super Saiyan God has a boost over base form
Thus, if SSB is the the same boost over the Super Saiyan form, which is 50x base, SSB would be 50x SSG.

IMO, it's just a Goku being stronger thing. This is the statement,btw.

But you can clearly see even SSJ Goku faring better. And tbf, the statement talks about Goku's God form in comparison to Vegeta's Blue form in specific,not the forms in general.

If you're just going to declare things that have not been proven, you shouldn't step in.

They were portrayed as equals in the entire series up to this point, and Hit was basically playing with Goku. One couldn't claim Goku's SSJ form is above Vegeta's drained Blue form based on their performances against Frost, so pointing out SSJ Goku doing better against Hit (after figuring out his gimmick, an advantage Vegeta lacked) is pointless unless you wanted to argue for such ludicrous scaling.

EDIT: Not to mention, Hit was not close to full power against Goku until he used SSG

 

[Agnaa]

Super Saiyan Blue, formely named "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan", is described as "Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God", thus, they are connected. The reason why it's supposed it's stacked, is because, Super Saiyan is 50 times stronger than Base Form, this is currently accepted.

Super Saiyan God has a boost over base form
Thus, if SSB is the the same boost over the Super Saiyan form, which is 50x base, SSB would be 50x SSG.

That helps with the second question, not so much the first.

My question is simply, "Does using SSB inherently involve using SSG?"

If it does, then the argument for 10x is incoherent, since Vegeta supposedly had another powerup on top of Goku's, yet was losing, and so Goku must have gotten stronger, or Hit must have gotten weaker, rendering that whole 10% comparison irrelevant.

If it doesn't, then the argument for 50x is incoherent, since you can't stack SS on SSG without using SSG.

If it's unclear, let me know. I'll probably just default to 50x, for the reasons I outlined earlier (felt even more strongly, now that the 10% comparison seems to be between Vegeta and Goku, rather than Vegeta and another one of Vegeta's own transformations), but it's be nice to have clarity on that.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

That helps with the second question, not so much the first.

My question is simply, "Does using SSB inherently involve using SSG?"

If it does, then the argument for 10x is incoherent, since Vegeta supposedly had another powerup on top of Goku's, yet was losing, and so Goku must have gotten stronger, or Hit must have gotten weaker, rendering that whole 10% comparison irrelevant.

If it doesn't, then the argument for 50x is incoherent, since you can't stack SS on SSG without using SSG.

If it's unclear, let me know. I'll probably just default to 50x, for the reasons I outlined earlier (felt even more strongly, now that the 10% comparison seems to be between Vegeta and Goku, rather than Vegeta and another one of Vegeta's own transformations), but it's be nice to have clarity on that.

If it helps, a manga guide states

DBS manga guides have the same statement as the movies. So, if the argument is that the manga never states SSJB is SSGSS then that wouldn’t help determine things.

超サイヤ人ゴッド超サイヤ人
超サイヤ人ゴッドのパワーを持ったサイヤ人の超サイヤ人。エネルギー消費が激しい。 髪色は青だ。
Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan
A Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God. Energy consumption is intense. Hair color is blue.

If it helps, probably doesn't,but I tried.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

If it helps, a manga guide states

If it helps, probably doesn't,but I tried.

Although I'd like to ask to clarify on the "inherently" part, if i may.

 

[Agnaa]

That manga guide statement seems to imply that SSB inherently involves SSG.

By "inherently" I mean "entering the SSB state requires entering/being in the SSG state, you cannot have SSB without SSG".

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

My question is simply, "Does using SSB inherently involve using SSG?"

Well, I was hoping my answer: "It's Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God (SSG)" would suffice to tell you that, yes, it does.

If it does, then the argument for 10x is incoherent, since Vegeta supposedly had another powerup on top of Goku's, yet was losing, and so Goku must have gotten stronger, or Hit must have gotten weaker, rendering that whole 10% comparison irrelevant.

Going over an older multiplier is an option. However, this is incoherent and inconsistent in either case. This is why we would have to pick which multiplier is more reliable.
Goku has no signs of being over five times stronger than Vegeta, as when it came to their performances in their regular Super Saiyan forms, it was roughly similar.

If it's unclear, let me know. I'll probably just default to 50x, for the reasons I outlined earlier (felt even more strongly, now that the 10% comparison seems to be between Vegeta and Goku, rather than Vegeta and another one of Vegeta's own transformations), but it's be nice to have clarity on that.

Their base forms are equal, as my previous post showcased. However, I wouldn't argue that it doesn't contradict the 50 times multipliers.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

That manga guide statement seems to imply that SSB inherently involves SSG.

By "inherently" I mean "entering the SSB state requires entering/being in the SSG state, you cannot have SSB without SSG".

No you... can go Blue from Base form. In fact, it's how the form goes most of the time.

But again, Goku uses the power of Super Saiyan God form then goes Super Saiyan, which results in Blue, so yes.

 

[Damage3245]

No you... can go Blue from Base form. In fact, it's how the form goes most of the time.

But again, Goku uses the power of Super Saiyan God form then goes Super Saiyan, which results in Blue, so yes.

In the Moro arc, when Goku and Vegeta are so drained of their Ki and they can't sustain their Super Saiyan Blue transformations, they go down to Super Saiyan God form. This may be relevant.

 

[Agnaa]

Well, I was hoping my answer: "It's Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God (SSG)" would suffice to tell you that, yes, it does.

Going over an older multiplier is an option. However, this is incoherent and inconsistent in either case. This is why we would have to pick which multiplier is more reliable.
Goku has no signs of being over five times stronger than Vegeta, as when it came to their performances in their regular Super Saiyan forms, it was roughly similar.

Their base forms are equal, as my previous post showcased. However, I wouldn't argue that it doesn't contradict the 50 times multipliers.

If so, then we just have to take the Vegeta/Goku/Hit thing as an unresolvable inconsistency. Saying that SSB is only a 10x amp doesn't fix that, since Vegeta and Goku were both using SSG, yet Goku fared far better.

50x it is.

 

[Damage3245]

@The_Yellow_Topaz Yeah, looks like we should go for 50x for now unless something new comes up.

 

[TegamiBachi25]

So SSJB accepted as 50x right now? Let’s go and cook

 

[TiltedFN]

50x seems good, agree

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Great, now that's solved. Can we apply that immediately on my speed scaling blog?

 

[Ednaxel2]

Great, now that's solved. Can we apply that immediately on my speed scaling blog?

If I'm correct, changes need to be applied 48 hours after its been accepted

 

[TheRustyOne]

If I'm correct, changes need to be applied 48 hours after its been accepted

No, it's 48 hours from the thread's creation not when it's accepted.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

@The_Yellow_Topaz Yeah, looks like we should go for 50x for now unless something new comes up.

Applied to my scaling blog. This is kind of meaningless towards AP so I can't exactly apply this the profiles. What I can do is apply this to the Goku and Vegeta AP ratings stating SSB is "Super Saiyan version of Super Saiyan God" rather than the 10% statement

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

This has been applied, what do you think? Yes, Goku's profile is the only profile that has the information on this.

This can be closed if everything is a-ok.