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Common Calc Concern: Reaction Times for Blitzing Feats

DMUA

DMUA

He/Him
VS Battles
Calculation Group
24,825
6,075
This time, the practice I'm trying to demolish is entirely my fault. And I don't think I'll be pulling from any specific examples because it's so absurdly widespread.

Still, allow me to clarify my premise. Using the subsonic reaction timeframe for any feat in which characters are "completely blitzed" is dumb and I essentially introduced it as a way to allow people to cope feats that could totally happen in mundane timeframes into being subsonic because it essentially feels right.

It's almost hard to really structure this like what a proper CRT would be, because it's just so basic. While yes, specific projectiles we can easily imagine as being impossible to react to are subsonic like BB pellets or arrows, that doesn't really set a baseline for what's truly impossible to manage a reaction to. We have a chart for that, using the actual reaction timing of people as a frame of reference.

Factually, you only need to land a punch within less than .13 seconds to make an attack surpass an average guy's ability to react to it. This value goes higher in the case of athletes who've trained into having a better capacity to react to stuff coming at them, but it's never .029 seconds on anyone I'm aware of. Even the guy who cut a BB pellet with his sword needed advanced warning, and you're not going to get that if some guy just throws a punch at you, especially if that's his first offensive measure in the fight.

Again, I really don't know what else to put here, besides maybe just citing some reasons for numbers being what they are. Regardless, my conclusion is clear enough: We should use the actual peak of reaction timeframes for people, on our feats of surpassing people's reactions. Even if this docs the numbers a lot, you have to keep in mind that manga/anime or whathave you also has characters accelerate much faster than any human should be capable of, which throws off our ability to react since windup goes bust. To that end, someone that can go from stationary to Peak or even Athletic Human speed with their fist is bound to catch a guy off guard, and we should just let characters with those kinds of feats have Peak or Athletic human speed.

That's all.
 
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Reaction speed and perception speed aren't the same thing. A reaction blitz is when you can see something but can't move in time to react, a perception blitz is when you cant see something.

I don't think any human irl is able to become invisible by sheer speed so I don't think using human reactions for those kinds of feats when a human clearly doesn't come close to them makes sense.
 
Dinozxd said:
I don't think any human irl is able to become invisible by sheer speed so I don't think using human reactions for those kinds of feats when a human clearly doesn't come close to them makes sense.
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No human IRL can accelerate from 0 to 230 kilometers per hour on a dime either. That's what makes things much harder to track and perceive, a spontaneous change you might not necessarily be prepared to process.

In fact in general I think that's the underlying problem, we never account for acceleration as a potential factor. Obviously it's not relevant to the amount of speed a character can output directly, but it is certainly relevant to how fast they may appear and how difficult they are to properly respond to.
 
What if a character is superhuman? Or even subsonic? If they're blitzed, shouldn't we be able to use 0.08s or 0.029s?

Does this also include perception blitzes?
From what I understand, blizting a character's reaction means that the character can see the attack incoming but can't block them, but sometimes people count perception blitz and reaction blitz as the same thing, I'm confused.
 
I completely agree with this.

We should just use human to peak human reaction time for blitzing feats, unless the character's in question has a higher reaction time in universe without any calculations.

Using a Subsonic timeframe for all of these feats is illogical since this implies the person being blitz has Subsonic level reactions for no reason.

However, there are many factors in a human's ability to react to something. Distance, size, focus, light, and more.

Perception blitzes would indeed be higher than a reaction blitz, but we have no set standard for such a thing.

And there are different types of perception blitzes as well, which are impossible to tell in fiction without overly specific details.
 
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Yeah I always found it iffy to use Subsonic perception speed for a normal blitz. AFAIK, that shit is reserved exclusively for after-image fuckery, and even then, disappearing from the naked eye allowed for nothing beyond baseline Subsonic as per DT's drafts.
 
Yeah, regarding your first paragraph, I can recall back in my earlier days when you were more active in the calculations department. I can recall you weren't exactly the most reliable calc group member at the time, and it's nice to see you making amends for it.

In regards to this, I can certainly agree changes need to be done. If I recall correctly, reaction time actually is based on the stimuli. The general rule of thumb seems to be "250 ms for visual stimuli, 170 ms for auditory stimuli, and 150 ms for touch stimuli". It can probably be less for children and gamers (especially speedrunners) since the former perceives time slower than an elderly person whereas for gamers... A casual like me can do 10-11 clicks per second on a clicker game. I've taken three click speed tests: one at 10.3 clicks per second (97 ms per click): https://prnt.sc/yEbsXtnZIFNt

One at 10.3 clicks per second again...: https://prnt.sc/yzUJXYhHHEB-

And one at 10.3 clicks per second again...: https://prnt.sc/zuwCoRu4i7nh

With two hands, I got 17.8 clicks per second: https://prnt.sc/cKWmSnxwe886

This is just for a casual; a speedrunner can track very precise actions and frames in order to get the fastest times possible in a game.

Sub-100 ms movements are indeed possible and perceivable. I wouldn't go too far with it, as like you said, the guy who can slice a BB pellet needed expert concentration and rigorous training, and the figure of 1/274 second for human reaction time was specifically gotten off air force pilots if I recall correctly.

Now, in regards to this, I believe KingTempest made a thread concerning reaction times that may help with this thread. Me? I'd base any amount on blitzing on the speed at which something can normally move, like for example the movement of a punch. The fastest punch is nowhere even close to Supersonic, only 45 miles per hour: https://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/news/2013/8/fan-choice-record-august-9-50361/ (Heavyweight boxers usually clock in at up to 31 mph!)

If there is a specific reaction time listed for a character, like for example, Debby the Corsifa (whose reaction time is explicitly shown to be within the window of 5 milliseconds), I'd use that for blitzing instead of our norms, but otherwise, it's best to base blitzing on whatever real-life examples we have lying around.
 
Yes DMUA is correct. I'm unsure why people are talking about perception times because that is completely different.
 
I suppose this is a pretty straightforward "calc group members, use more reasonable values" but I am bumping since this is important in a retroactive sense as well, we should probably revise calcs using this sort of stuff
 
@DMUA Couple of questions:

1) Just say Character A has feats of moving as fast as lightning, reacting to lightning and dodging lightning and said lightning is lightning speed. Would we still use peak human reactions if he gets blitzed or would it be fair to use a massively hypersonic reactions?

2) If Characters B moves too fast for Character C to see or follow visual, but Character C states he can clearly see Characters A's moves. The Story/author tells us that Character A's said moves happened in 0.001 seconds, would we use peak reaction timeframes or the given inverse timeframes of character reactions from the story?
 
Serlock_Holmes said:
For my question?
Click to expand...
Yes.
PowerToScale said:
1) Just say Character A has feats of moving as fast as lightning, reacting to lightning and dodging lightning and said lightning is lightning speed. Would we still use peak human reactions if he gets blitzed or would it be fair to use a massively hypersonic reactions?

2) If Characters B moves too fast for Character C to see or follow visual, but Character C states he can clearly see Characters A's moves. The Story/author tells us that Character A's said moves happened in 0.001 seconds, would we use peak reaction timeframes or the given inverse timeframes of character reactions from the story?
Click to expand...
Also refer to hiding calculations, here. A move happening in .001 seconds is explicit enough but you shouldn't apply it to everything.
 
DMUA said:
Yes.
Click to expand...
That makes no sense. Someone who can perceive lighting, but is blitzed would need to be blitzed with that reaction time. It's wrong to assume peak human reactions when someone reacts to things no human would for the same reason someone winning arm wrestling against superman wouldn't get peak human LS.
 
Serlock_Holmes said:
That makes no sense. Someone who can perceive lighting, but is blitzed would need to be blitzed with that reaction time. It's wrong to assume peak human reactions when someone reacts to things no human would for the same reason someone winning arm wrestling against superman wouldn't get peak human LS.
Click to expand...
Breaks our calculation rules, AKA hiding calculations

Unless they're given a canon perception timeframe in the series, then no
 
KingTempest said:
Breaks our calculation rules, AKA hiding calculations

Unless they're given a canon perception timeframe in the series, then no
Click to expand...
So people react to lighting which a human doesn't have the time to process, but for everything else we give them human reactions because big speed is scary? Makes zero sense, but since it's a rule I won't make a fuss about it.
 
 
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Viott said:
This does not apply to appearanceism. If there is evidence that the character being punched is subsonic, infrasonic perception can be used and this guy has
Here :
Click to expand...

The full statement is here and it only mentions that this speed is reacheable via using stick like weapons (basically using Kali Arnis). This can't be scaled to the guy in the other feat.
Zefra3011 said:
"Ogre" Angry blitzes Ran
Click to expand...
Kinda have a problem with this since this feat involves dissapearing out of sight, not blitzing.
Zefra3011 said:
Base Mikey kicks Taiju
Click to expand...
Same goes to this.

Other ones seem fine to me.
 
Dinozxd said:
The full statement is here and it only mentions that this speed is reacheable via using stick like weapons (basically using Kali Arnis). This can't be scaled to the guy in the other feat.

Kinda have a problem with this since this feat involves dissapearing out of sight, not blitzing.

Same goes to this.

Other ones seem fine to me.
Click to expand...
You are wrong Jay moves 69.444 m/s using the stick and this guy is faster than Jack with the stick
 
Dinozxd said:
The full statement is here and it only mentions that this speed is reacheable via using stick like weapons (basically using Kali Arnis). This can't be scaled to the guy in the other feat.

Kinda have a problem with this since this feat involves dissapearing out of sight, not blitzing.

Same goes to this.

Other ones seem fine to me.
Click to expand...
Is it just him? The person that Mikey kicked in Supersonic Calc, the maximum athletic person should be 0.2.
 
Viott said:
You are wrong Jay moves 69.444 m/s using the stick and this guy is faster than Jack with the stick
Click to expand...
That would make him Subsonic, not Supersonic+? You can't use attacking speeds of other characters because that would be Hiding Calculations (I think).
Viott said:
Is it just him? The person that Mikey kicked in Supersonic Calc, the maximum athletic person should be 0.2.
Click to expand...
Peak human reaction speed is 0.08 seconds as KingTempest said somewhere above.
 
Dinozxd said:
That would make him Subsonic, not Supersonic+? You can't use attacking speeds of other characters because that would be Hiding Calculations (I think).
Click to expand...
What I mean is that the man who gets punched is much faster than jay with a stick, so subsonic perception can be used.
Dinozxd said:
Peak human reaction speed is 0.08 seconds as KingTempest said somewhere above.
Click to expand...
This unfortunately does not apply to normal humans. 0.08 is only used for superhumans.

Prove that the person who got kicked is a superhuman
 
So what are the consensus conclusions here so far?
 
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