Common Calc Concern: Evading the punches of other characters

[KLOL506]

I cant tell if you agree or disagree with me

I'm adding more conditions to fulfill on your arguments. Let's just say it was a bit... incomplete.

 

[Antvasima]

This seems to make sense to me.

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

@DontTalkDT @Executor_N0 @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Mr._Bambu @Damage3245 @DemonGodMitchAubin @Jasonsith @Wokistan @Migue79 @Psychomaster35 @CloverDragon03 @Dark-Carioca @AbaddonTheDisappointment @Aguywhodoesthings @Agnaa @DemiiPowa

What do you think about this?

 

[KLOL506]

Don't forget to take a look at the further additions I suggested too!

 

[M3X_2.0]

Don't forget to take a look at the further additions I suggested too!

Write a summary of the OP suggestions and yours. It'd help when evaluating.

 

[KLOL506]

Using the summary of DMUA:

"On the projectile dodging feats, or some similar page, there should be a note that it is banned to calculate the evasion of attacks between two evenly matched characters, as they are inherently contradictory to the fight surrounding it if taken at face value, and are just a trope used to exaggerate the extreme narrowness by which characters dodge attacks. It is fine if one character is clearly far superior to another and expressly allows an attack to get that close to their face before actually evading due to the sheer gap between them, or perhaps for static projectiles/techniques that they clearly outspeed such as a bullet. Otherwise, my support for this measure is the extreme prevalence of violating the rules on our Calc Stacking page, and thus it would be better to nip the potential for that in the future in the bud."

There's also my conditions for such a feat to even be validly used...

1. Find where the maximum speed is reached by the arm, and if said position is reached by the arm when the dodging starts

2. Find out if there is a reliable speed value in the source or from real life to use from.

However, care must be taken that it is consistent with the actual speed of those punches in the fight itself, if it isn't, just don't use it for calcs and scale those dudes to whatever speed feats they have on their own separately.

Additionally, some other additional factors must be taken into account:

3. You would actually need the speed to be mentioned within the story as well or some blatant direct statement that they were going all out (Assuming the speed statement is a little bit before the punch evasion feat).

4. (I wouldn't put this up as mandatory, but highly recommended) The proximity of the feat has to be very, very close to the statement, within like, 2-5 chapters or maybe a few pages, whichever one people think is best. But the idea is to have it within the same timeframe as the feat itself.

 

[DMUA]

Personally I'd lock it to just be the same combat encounter if not being performed at the exact moment of the feat, don't want to give ideas by slapping an arbitrary chapter count onto it

Either way I guess since this isn't getting any pushback the main thing to do would be writing up exactly how this should be put onto one of our pages, probably Projectile Dodging Feats but maybe it could go on calculations like the FTE stuff

And of course it'd cover all the stuff KLOL mentioned, but I'd also add that it can't contradict the fight itself being between two equal opponents, or the distance can't be immediately contradicted by the defensive measure, since it is ultimately an artistic technique meant to put extra emphasis on the danger more than a literal representation of how absurdly fast a character can move

 

[KLOL506]

And of course it'd cover all the stuff KLOL mentioned, but I'd also add that it can't contradict the fight itself being between two equal opponents, or the distance can't be immediately contradicted by the defensive measure, since it is ultimately an artistic technique meant to put extra emphasis on the danger more than a literal representation of how absurdly fast a character can move

Ay yo, I literally just put up the "can't contradict the fight itself" part from your summary, ya got ninja'd, bozo.

 

[M3X_2.0]

1. Find where the maximum speed is reached by the arm, and if said position is reached by the arm when the dodging starts

I don't think this is necessary, it's just basic stuff everyone knows.

2. Find out if there is a reliable speed value in the source or from real life to use from.

More like: The attack needs a statement for such speed being used, or shown to have the speed used. Arbitrary values like "peak human" cannot be used as they contradict the speed the character actually has on their profile.

I think the main issues are

1. We assume a speed for the character that is attacking that doesn't represent his true speed; using peak human or sub-sonic speeds for a Massively Hypersonic+ character. Using the MHS+ speed makes it calc stacking and using something below is hiding calculation.
2. Scaling inconsistencies, the calc makes one character far faster than the other, despite them being evenly matched when fighting.

I suggest the following: These kind of feats are only allowed when 1. There is a stated speed for the character during the feat, or during the usage of a technique (Character uses a transformation that is said to move at lightspeed) and 2. It shouldn't lead to inconsistencies, the character who is dodging should be faster than the other character and the profiles should reflect this.

Just use this.

 

[KLOL506]

More like: The attack needs a statement for such speed being used, or shown to have the speed used. Arbitrary values like "peak human" cannot be used as they contradict the speed the character actually has on their profile.

I guess that's a valid concern.

Just use this.

This looks fine.

 

[M3X_2.0]

"Refrain from calculating feats based on dodging attacks from other characters. This leads to multiple inconsistencies, such as:

1. The character who dodges the attack usually continues the fight against the attacker, but the calculation results in them being considered many times faster.
2. The speed used should be something concrete, like a stated speed or a demonstration of surpassing something like sound or light, for example. Arbitrary choices should not be used, as they may contradict the character's profile.

The calculation is only allowed when none of these points are contradicted."

Maybe this?

 

[KingTempest]

Would this apply to regular scaling too?

Like not even just calcs but just regular speed scaling on profiles to say there's 2 relative ppl and 1 does what's mention in the OP

Would that be prohibited

 

[M3X_2.0]

Yes, same thing.

 

[Agnaa]

@Agnaa

What do you think about this?

I currently have 33 threads in my "to-evaluate" backlog, I've added this to the list, and will get to it eventually.

 

[Clout5560]

"Refrain from calculating feats based on dodging attacks from other characters. This leads to multiple inconsistencies, such as:

1. The character who dodges the attack usually continues the fight against the attacker, but the calculation results in them being considered many times faster.
2. The speed used should be something concrete, like a stated speed or a demonstration of surpassing something like sound or light, for example. Arbitrary choices should not be used, as they may contradict the character's profile.

The calculation is only allowed when none of these points are contradicted."

Maybe this?

So. You can only use projectile speeds via dodging calcs like Naruto’s light fang? It HAS to be 100% stated so we can’t use peak human speeds now?

 

[Fikriskps]

I agree with DMUA

 

[Fikriskps]

So. You can only use projectile speeds via dodging calcs like Naruto’s light fang? It HAS to be 100% stated so we can’t use peak human speeds now?

Yes because the Speed Are Clear From Statement, Comparing Than Using Peak Human Speed for Punch its Vague

 

[KLOL506]

More or less, yeah.

Slow-motion time dilation calcs are different tho. They have their own rules and regulations different from this.

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

The speed used should be something concrete, like a stated speed or a demonstration of surpassing something like sound or light, for example. Arbitrary choices should not be used, as they may contradict the character's profile.

I disagree with this.

There are instances where the author wants to show speed differences between two characters. The character attacking the guy dodging the attack there may have broken the sound barrier before, but in that particular moment he doesn't, are we just gonna ignore the feat then?
I don't see how using baseline peak-superhuman or subsonic speed would hurt that much. If this goes through, verses like Lookism and The Boxer are (almost) not going to have any calculations.

Also the speed ratings in the profiles are often from calculations.

 

[M3X_2.0]

are we just gonna ignore the feat then?

Yes. They shouldn’t be calculated. There is nothing to calculate in the first place.

You can disagree, but there is no way we’re accepting that given all the issues.

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

The subsonic thing also has to be discussed (bringing this up because I think its relevant to the discussion since it's about projectile dodging).
What are the standards needed to use this value in a projectile dodging calcs?

I've seen CGMs agreeing with the usage if the character has subsonic rating, some say the attacks has to be blurry, some say being blurry is not sufficient, some say they have no idea.

I'm confused.

 

[KLOL506]

Scale to whatever other separate speed feat they have.

This rule is only for feats like this. Not for your actual standard projectile dodging feats, like dodging beams with stated speeds or bullets.

 

[M3X_2.0]

I've seen CGMs agreeing with the usage if the character has subsonic rating

That’s totally different, it doesn’t contradict the profile and the value used to calculate the feat.

Let’s say:

Character A dodged an attack from Character B at close range. B is Massively Hypersonic+, then you use sub-sonic speeds for the calc.

You are: 1. Hiding calculations, you’re just using subsonic because you can’t use the true speed (calc stacking) 2. You’re contradicting the profile. The character is MHS or subsonic?

Feats like this should be completely discarded.

 

[EndlessPheonix750]

I have another problem in the case of calc dodge punches there is such a thing as an off screen transition (which is not shown in its entirety in a frame), namely
The situation where char B's hand wants to touch char A's face→char A dodges a little→after the punch is dodged, char A & char B move simultaneously with their respective finals.

What this means is that the calculation done by that person will be invalid because it violates the projectile dodging formula, where someone usually calculates like this:
(Distance of char A move × speed of char B ÷ distance before char B attacks char A) The problem is in the distance of char A move & the distance of char b attack, the simple situation does not occur simultaneously, there is a situation that is hidden in the off screen as above (because frame by frame it will not be possible to make it as detailed as possible).

Case calc yuu vs aroon

cmiiw

 

[M3X_2.0]

I don’t quite understand what you said, could you rephrase?

 

[EndlessPheonix750]

So I suggest calc that smells of punch dodge should be avoided

 

[EndlessPheonix750]

I don’t quite understand what you said, could you rephrase?

To put it simply, when the enemy's hand is about to hit our face, we will react slightly to avoid it, then when the enemy's hand has already passed our face, we will avoid it with a big reaction.

 

[M3X_2.0]

There are instances where the author wants to show speed differences between two characters.

Also this. You don’t need concrete values for everything. You don’t need to calc how much faster a character is compared to the other. You just scale the fastest one above the other.

To put it simply, when the enemy's hand is about to hit our face, we will react slightly to avoid it, then when the enemy's hand has already passed our face, we will avoid it with a big reaction.

Refer to this: https://vsbattles.com/threads/staff-thread-putting-standards-on-reactions-calculations.150868/

 

[EndlessPheonix750]

Refer to this: https://vsbattles.com/threads/staff-thread-putting-standards-on-reactions-calculations.150868/

I didn't find the answer to my question

 

[M3X_2.0]

Your question is related to the OP of that thread.

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

That’s totally different, it doesn’t contradict the profile and the value used to calculate the feat.

Let’s say:

Character A dodged an attack from Character B at close range. B is Massively Hypersonic+, then you use sub-sonic speeds for the calc.

You are: 1. Hiding calculations, you’re just using subsonic because you can’t use the true speed (calc stacking) 2. You’re contradicting the profile. The character is MHS or subsonic?

Feats like this should be completely discarded.

Let's say there's this character who has supersonic+ rating in his profile, the rating comes from a calculation of dealing with a baseball.
However, without any calculations, he only has FTE feats and doesn't have any feats of breaking the speed of sound.

Also there are cases where a character has only shown peak-superhuman feats without calculation, but with calculations they have FTE ratings, should peak human- superhuman speeds be unusable here?

I think where they scale to without calcs should take the precedence here.

 

[M3X_2.0]

should peak human- superhuman speeds be unable here?

If it contradicts the rating on their profile, yeah.

I think where they scale to without calcs should take the precedence here.

Then downgrade the character to the speed you’re using to calculate a feat. Why would you use something different from their profile?

A calc is supposed to be made for something like dodging a projectile, evading something, not dodging a punch or a kick from another character. You don’t have the speed, you’re assuming one. You’re basically making up a feat. There’s nothing to calculate when a character dodges another character’s attack. You just scale them above the other. It’s as simple as that.

 

[EndlessPheonix750]

Your question is related to the OP of that thread.

I checked and my question in this thread is irrelevant, as it talks about bullet speed, perception and even slightly alludes to dodging projectiles. But unfortunately my question makes more sense here, as it addresses human speed

 

[M3X_2.0]

I mean if you don’t think your question is related to that thread then I don’t think you’ll get any answers from here.

 

[Fikriskps]

well i gues what m3x said is relavant, Showing dodging a kick or punch each other is showing they are Equal At Reacting things like that

 

[EndlessPheonix750]

I mean if you don’t think your question is related to that thread then I don’t think you’ll get any answers from here.

So, what would you suggest to answer my question, should I make a thread or what?

 

[EndlessPheonix750]

A calc is supposed to be made for something like dodging a projectile, evading something, not dodging a punch or a kick from another character. You don’t have the speed, you’re assuming one. You’re basically making up a feat. There’s nothing to calculate when a character dodges another character’s attack. You just scale them above the other. It’s as simple as that.

I agree

 

[KLOL506]

Like bro, just check the Raoh vs Kenshiro feat. This is what that rule applies to.

It does not apply to projectiles that have stated speeds (Like Light Fang in Naruto being SoL as per databooks) or whose speeds we already know from IRL examples (Bullets, missiles, meteors, asteroids, lightning, actual light beams from stars, etc.)

 

[MysticCarnage]

I agree with morrishatesyou here