Changing the Versus Thread One-Shot Gap

[Phoenks]

I don't see the utility in having a bunch of numbers if we're not providing one as our chosen one-shot value.

The utility comes in what those numbers represent rather than the values themselves. There are many characters in fiction that can survive having their bones broken by hits and taking gut punches that should knock any normal person out, so a 5x gap wouldn't mean much for those types of characters if it's just the gap between a normal and peak human. Many series have characters overcome gaps like that on a regular basis.

That's where other "gaps" come in.

The purpose of VSBW is to leave as little to interpretation as is possible- we cannot provide objective stances, obviously, but we can do our best. Providing a number of values and asking thread creators to do as they can seems less than ideal.

The one-shot gap is always going to be more of a suggestion that a one-size fits all one-shot value regardless, because, objectively speaking, there are characters who will not be one-shot by a 5x difference in power. Aka like every protagonist with a lot of willpower or accelerated development.

Which is where I see the merit in multiple values. It would allow us to be more accurate to what actually happens in battles with characters who don't have the endurance of normal people.

 

[Propellus]

The utility comes in what those numbers represent rather than the values themselves. There are many characters in fiction that can survive having their bones broken by hits and taking gut punches that should knock any normal person out, so a 5x gap wouldn't mean much for those types of characters if it's just the gap between a normal and peak human. Many series have characters overcome gaps like that on a regular basis.

That's where other "gaps" come in.


The one-shot gap is always going to be more of a suggestion that a one-size fits all one-shot value regardless, because, objectively speaking, there are characters who will not be one-shot by a 5x difference in power. Aka like every protagonist with a lot of willpower or accelerated development.

Which is where I see the merit in multiple values. It would allow us to be more accurate to what actually happens in battles with characters who don't have the endurance of normal people.

Have you gotten permission to comment?

 

[KLOL506]

Have you gotten permission to comment?

He is staff, only non-staff need permission to comment.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

He is staff, only non-staff need permission to comment.

Does this apply to staff from our sister wikis too? If so, we should clarify that in the rules.

 

[KLOL506]

Does this apply to staff from our sister wikis too? If so, we should clarify that in the rules.

Yes, it does, but Phoneks is a Content Moderator in the VSB wiki itself, whom I don't think I have to mention, have as much of a right to engage in staff threads as we CGMs do.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Yes, it does, but Phoneks is a Content Moderator in the VSB wiki itself, whom I don't think I have to mention, have as much of a right to engage in staff threads as we CGMs do.

I don't see Phoneks listed in the Content Moderator list.

 

[KLOL506]

I don't see Phoneks listed in the Content Moderator list.

Weird. Thought he was one on the wiki.

Either way, I don't think him being a staff on our sister wiki would deny him the privilege personally speaking.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yes, it does, but Phoneks is a Content Moderator in the VSB wiki itself, whom I don't think I have to mention, have as much of a right to engage in staff threads as we CGMs do.

Phoenks is a Content Mod for FC/OC wiki, not Vs Battles wiki by the looks of it.

 

[Phoenks]

I am not a VSBW staff.

However, if this is true:

Only staff members and regular members staff have deemed highly trustworthy may participate in Staff Discussion threads unless an explicit exception is noted.

Then would you say I am trustworthy enough to participate on these threads without permission for every message? I am trying to have an actual discussion that I do not think was discussed extensively on this thread.

 

[DMUA]

Does anyone else have an opinion on this suggestion?

I do not think it is useful to have a singular, rigid "one-shot" gap when there are so many factors at play in VS matches.

As Agnaa pointed out earlier, the true gap for a one-shot by the metrics listed for 5x is... 1x. Because placement just does allow you to take someone out of a fight with a single hit even in scenarios where it's an MMA fight against two dudes trained about the same way.

The rigid one-shot gap is supposed to represent a one-shot made with sheer brute force, where the placement only matters by virtue of hitting something vital to overall function rather than an arm or leg.

It's worthwhile to consider other factors that'd bring the value much lower and note that on the page, but in terms of values, we should just focus on what would incapacitate or kill an opponent without any other factors coming into play.

 

[SeijiSetto]

idk how common this interpretation was but i always imagined the one-shot gap as a difference large enough to put someone down / severely injure someone with a blow to like... anywhere you'd normally not consider a weakpoint between 2 human-level equal opponents

 

[Armorchompy]

Apparently, the fracture threshold of a human skull is at most 68.5 Joules, and 80 to 100 Joule strikes can easily cause them (Warning, this is a document examining a murder via strikes to the head, so it may be a bit morbid). So I wouldn't find the calculation used to get the 15x multiplier to be reliable in the first place.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

He is staff, only non-staff need permission to comment.

Technically he's FC/OC staff, so it's valid to raise the question. That said, I will afford him permission to comment now. What he's saying is valid discussion, though I think it's not helping the thread reach a conclusion.

The one-shot gap is always going to be more of a suggestion that a one-size fits all one-shot value regardless

Broadly speaking, yes. Mechanically, no. The entire purpose of this thread is to find and agree upon an actual one-size-fits-all value. The best fitting one we can find.

 

[Antvasima]

I am not a VSBW staff.

However, if this is true:

Then would you say I am trustworthy enough to participate on these threads without permission for every message? I am trying to have an actual discussion that I do not think was discussed extensively on this thread.

I personally think that it seems fine, as you are still helping out community with important work.

 

[Antvasima]

I do agree with Tanin_iver about that 14x seems like a large gap for somewhat even matchups. Is there any lower border closer to 5x based on existing real world mathematical standards?

So about this...

Apparently, the fracture threshold of a human skull is at most 68.5 Joules, and 80 to 100 Joule strikes can easily cause them (Warning, this is a document examining a murder via strikes to the head, so it may be a bit morbid). So I wouldn't find the calculation used to get the 15x multiplier to be reliable in the first place.

And what multiplier would we end up with based on the above?

 

[Armorchompy]

Well, none, strikes from regular people could feasibly cause skull fractures if the delivery is very clean. I was just illustrating that the method used for the 14x gap might not be correct

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Noted.

So what about my first question in my last post above?

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Okay. Noted.

So what about my first question in my last post above?

@Armorchompy

 

[Armorchompy]

Not that I know of

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

@Antvasima This is the current vote tally:

1. Keep 7.5X: Mr._Bambu, Propellus, Armorchompy
2. Change to 5X: DarkDragonMedeus, LordGriffin1000, Crabwhale, Emirp sumitpo, Lonkitt, KingTempest, Armorchompy, TheRustyOne, KLOL506, Psychomaster35, SeijiSetto, CloverDragon03
3. Change to 14X: Antvasima, Mr._Bambu, Qawsedf234, DarkGrath, Elizhaa, LordGriffin1000, Maverick_Zero_X, Damage3245, Colonel_Krukov, FinePoint, DMUA, Psychomaster35, CloverDragon03

Overall, the vote is in favor of the 14X gap with 12 votes in its favor, followed by 9 votes for 5X and 2 votes for 7.5X. Do we have enough votes to apply anything yet?

 

[Crabwhale]

You know what, change me from neutral to 5x gap.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

You know what, change me from neutral to 5x gap.

Done.

 

[Antvasima]

On second thought, I also think that 14x sounds too high, as it would almost be like a bear fighting a human baby. We preferably need to find a lower set alternative solution based on some real world standards.

@DontTalkDT @Executor_N0 @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Mr._Bambu @Therefir @DMUA @Damage3245 @TheRustyOne @DemonGodMitchAubin @Jasonsith @Wokistan @Armorchompy @Migue79 @Psychomaster35 @CloverDragon03 @KLOL506 @M3X_2.0 @Dark-Carioca @AbaddonTheDisappointment @Aguywhodoesthings @Agnaa @Dalesean027 @Flashlight237 @SeijiSetto

Do any of you have any suggestions for a more workable solution?

 

[CloverDragon03]

Well my vote was always toward 5x, as that's the current gap between baseline 10-B and baseline 9-C (which is what our original 7.5x gap was founded on)

 

[Psychomaster35]

On second thought, I also think that 14x sounds too high, as it would almost be like a bear fighting a human baby. We preferably need to find a lower set alternative solution based on some real world standards.

@DontTalkDT @Executor_N0 @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Mr._Bambu @Therefir @DMUA @Damage3245 @TheRustyOne @DemonGodMitchAubin @Jasonsith @Wokistan @Armorchompy @Migue79 @Psychomaster35 @CloverDragon03 @KLOL506 @M3X_2.0 @Dark-Carioca @AbaddonTheDisappointment @Aguywhodoesthings @Agnaa @Dalesean027 @Flashlight237 @SeijiSetto

Do any of you have any suggestions for a more workable solution?

Like I said, I was also fine with 5x if 14x doesn't get accepted. I just didn't mind it.

 

[KLOL506]

I still retain my vote for a 5x multiplier to one-shot.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I still retain my vote for a 5x multiplier to one-shot.

Same

 

[Dalesean027]

Yeah I've talked about this myself off site, I'm more in favor of the 5x gap

 

[Propellus]

I still think the 7.5x gap shouldn't be touched, as it's rather the lower end compared to our updated 10-B and 10-A baselines

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I still think the 7.5x gap shouldn't be touched, as it's rather the lower end compared to our updated 10-B and 10-A baselines

The problem is, it's based on a gap that is now simply 5x and thus based on an outdated formula that is now sourceless. It's either stick to tradition or base it off a new study/practice. So unless there's a different reason to keep 7.5x, it needs a new source/reason instead of the generic 9-C to 10-B gap.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I personally prefer if we can find some official scientific value to base our new standard on, but if that does not work, I suppose that 5x is better than nothing.

 

[Propellus]

The problem is, it's based on a gap that is now simply 5x and thus based on an outdated formula that is now sourceless. It's either stick to tradition or base it off a new study/practice. So unless there's a different reason to keep 7.5x, it needs a new source/reason instead of the generic 9-C to 10-B gap.

Well, hey if the gap is basing off something new besides our classic 10-B to 9-C comparison in a reasonable fashion, then I don't mind. But to me personally the 7.5x just feels more like low-end method than 5x. But since I'm clearly outvoted here, there's nothing really I can do about it at this point

 

[Colonel_Krukov]

I'm more in favour of either 14x or keeping it at 7.5x

 

[Mr. Bambu]

The problem is, it's based on a gap that is now simply 5x and thus based on an outdated formula that is now sourceless. It's either stick to tradition or base it off a new study/practice. So unless there's a different reason to keep 7.5x, it needs a new source/reason instead of the generic 9-C to 10-B gap.

5x remains equally as baseless and arbitrary. There is no reasonable reason to choose 5x aside from sounding nice.

 

[Jasonsith]

7.5x: Already in use, simple to use. Previously used since it was the gap from baseline 10-B to baseline 9-C.

5x: Current gap from baseline 10-B to baseline 9-C. This is pursued to keep in line with our previous quasi-standard.

14x: Based on the value needed to punch through the human body (specifically at the head) compared to baseline human level, which is agreed to be an instantly lethal attack and gives some general mathematical basis upon which to base this value.

Yes. On that note, here's the current tally (people are allowed to vote for two if they wish):

1. Keep 7.5X: Mr._Bambu, Propellus, Armorchompy
2. Change to 5X: DarkDragonMedeus, LordGriffin1000, Emirp sumitpo, Lonkitt, KingTempest, Armorchompy, TheRustyOne, KLOL506, Psychomaster35, SeijiSetto
3. Change to 14X: Antvasima, Mr._Bambu, Qawsedf234, DarkGrath, Elizhaa, LordGriffin1000, Maverick_Zero_X, Damage3245, FinePoint, DMUA, Psychomaster35

@AKM sama @DontTalkDT @Celestial_Pegasus @Andytrenom @Wokistan @Ultima_Reality @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @GyroNutz @Firestorm808 @Everything12 @Just_a_Random_Butler @Agnaa
For the Administrators and Bureaucrats who haven't commented yet, I would like for you to voice your opinions soon so we can wrap this up quick.

Reading...

Okay I do see 14x being more viable as a one-shot gap

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

This is the current vote tally now:

1. Keep 7.5X: Mr._Bambu, Propellus, Armorchompy
2. Change to 5X: Antvasima, DarkDragonMedeus, LordGriffin1000, Crabwhale, Emirp sumitpo, Lonkitt, KingTempest, Armorchompy, TheRustyOne, KLOL506, Psychomaster35, SeijiSetto, CloverDragon03
3. Change to 14X: Mr._Bambu, Qawsedf234, DarkGrath, Elizhaa, LordGriffin1000, Maverick_Zero_X, Damage3245, Colonel_Krukov, FinePoint, DMUA, Psychomaster35, Jasonsith

Overall, the votes are now slightly in favor of the 5x now.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

This is the current vote tally now:

1. Keep 7.5X: Mr._Bambu, Propellus, Armorchompy
2. Change to 5X: Antvasima, DarkDragonMedeus, LordGriffin1000, Crabwhale, Emirp sumitpo, Lonkitt, KingTempest, Armorchompy, TheRustyOne, KLOL506, Psychomaster35, SeijiSetto, CloverDragon03
3. Change to 14X: Mr._Bambu, Qawsedf234, DarkGrath, Elizhaa, LordGriffin1000, Maverick_Zero_X, Damage3245, Colonel_Krukov, FinePoint, DMUA, Psychomaster35, Jasonsith

Overall, the votes are now slightly in favor of the 5x now.

I'll note that Lonkitt has retired, however.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'll note that Lonkitt has retired, however.

I'm aware but retiring doesn't mean their input is invalid as they were staff when they voted. Also, Lonkitt simply retired and wasn't "Demoted" or anything like that.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I'm aware but retiring doesn't mean their input is invalid as they were staff when they voted. Also, Lonkitt simply retired and wasn't "Demoted" or anything like that.

I didn't say demoted, I'm saying their vote is tenuously valid- all input is, theoretically, valid. We tend to count votes on matters even if those votes don't amount to a proper usable vote- the court of public opinion is recognized. 's all I meant.

 

[Colonel_Krukov]

If I can vote twice, please put my second vote down for 7.5x please.