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Changing the Versus Thread One-Shot Gap
- Thread starter Agnaa
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@DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality @Executor_N0
Can any of you try to find a rational real world-based value for this, please, so we do not just choose something arbitrary?
Can any of you try to find a rational real world-based value for this, please, so we do not just choose something arbitrary?
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You as well, @Agnaa and @Qawsedf234 .
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If we don't want to have arbitrary rating, I'd suggest just getting rid of the one shot page completely and use common sense to determine if something is a stomp.
Knocking out is impossible to calculate period, there are too many variables that determine if someone will be knocked out that don't have anything to do with joules.
Instant death is "easier", since at the least we can agree a 14x punch to the head would kill, but it's very likely something far less can do the same. You don't need to break the skull to cause fatal damage to the human brain. This is a tricky subject, even if we're only factoring in head shots to make it simpler.
It's hard to find information on this because "one punch" deaths have reasonings beyond the punch. Many are because they fell and hit the hard ground which damaged their skull. Others had existing injuries that became worse and worse until that "one punch" killed them. (The majority of them fall because they get knocked out as well)
There is not a single case of a human killing another with the punch being the only injuring factor. Knock outs are plenty, but that isn't usable for our standards.
Tanking damage would be probably be better, but surprise, no one has ever calculated that before. At least from what I've been able to find.
Knocking out is impossible to calculate period, there are too many variables that determine if someone will be knocked out that don't have anything to do with joules.
Instant death is "easier", since at the least we can agree a 14x punch to the head would kill, but it's very likely something far less can do the same. You don't need to break the skull to cause fatal damage to the human brain. This is a tricky subject, even if we're only factoring in head shots to make it simpler.
It's hard to find information on this because "one punch" deaths have reasonings beyond the punch. Many are because they fell and hit the hard ground which damaged their skull. Others had existing injuries that became worse and worse until that "one punch" killed them. (The majority of them fall because they get knocked out as well)
There is not a single case of a human killing another with the punch being the only injuring factor. Knock outs are plenty, but that isn't usable for our standards.
Tanking damage would be probably be better, but surprise, no one has ever calculated that before. At least from what I've been able to find.
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What do the rest of you think about this?
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Versus threads are not as moderated as CRTs (nor should they necessarily be), I don't think "use common sense" really works there, I've seen very silly arguments like "3x isn't a big AP gap" or "a 1.5x AP gap is basically an even fight" thrown around completely earnestly.
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Sometimes they actually are - that a 3X is really not a big AP gap in some cases, making the "use of common sense" harder and more subject to subjective points.
In this case, I remain that a 14x gap would fit better to warrant an AP stomp - else a whole lot of matchups would be AP stomps and therefore the very need to reconsider the function of a versus debate thread.
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Yes it is wtf
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Then basically no fight is ever going to be considered "fair" if we were to enter this form of logic either way at all, rendering every single match to be pointless
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First off, no, either get an actually close AP matchup or get one where there's more wincons than raw strength. Second, I don't care. What do you suggest as an alternative, just pretending that isn't true because it's not fun?
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Believe me, I've seen enough school/real life events fights getting a good idea of how consistent people are able holding their own against people slightly stronger than him if not, stronger in general if you want to get technical depending on the kind of sport. Except, yours on the other hand doesn't seem to be this supportive enough to your own doubts for gaps this miniscule to be considered "one-shots". But if that's the way you just want to roll based on you simply not caring, then so be it, because I already know this is not going to go anywhere besides a whole series of "NO U" so I'll just stop right here.
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You're right when you say "slightly stronger". I can't really say much about this specific case given it's anecdotal evidence with no detail but I would wager the strength difference between competitors of just about any IRL competition is like, 20% at most or something. Weight classes exist for this very reason, you just cannot have a fair fight between a heavyweight and even a middleweight, and that is operating off A: a smaller AP "gap" than what we have here, B: A non-simplified IRL durability system, where someone's durability isn't going to be 1 to 1 comparable to their AP, C: A set of rules that prevents the fight from turning into an all-out contest of strength. And even then when you don't have weight classes in play you get something like this where the stronger (much less skilled fighter) just kind of manhandles the weaker one (Granted neither is trying to hurt the other here but I feel like the result is pretty obvious).
This does not mean you cannot have a fair fight between two people with something like a x4 AP gap but the weaker fighter would need to be some very significant advantage.
I'm sorry, are you sure you actually understand what something like a x5 gap is? You seem to be under the impression that is something you can see in fights IRL but it is closer to like, a very strong guy vs a gorilla.
It is indeed the way I want to roll based on it not being an argument that's taking me in bad faith and relying on a bunch of poorly understood anecdotal evidence.
XSOULOFCINDERX
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Am I allowed to bump Staff Threads as Non-Staff?
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I think that is a good point. We may need to use 14x for practical, rather than realistic fighting conditions, reasons, due to that too many of our current matchups will have to be removed otherwise, which is not realistic for the continued maintenance of this community.
I suppose that I am also fine with 14x in that case then.
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IdiosyncraticLawyer
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Bump.
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@DontTalkDT @Executor_N0 @Migue79 @DemonGodMitchAubin @Dark-Carioca @AbaddonTheDisappointment @Dalesean027 @Aguywhodoesthings @DemiiPowa @Therefir Your input here would be appreciated.
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Fine with either 5x or 14x as per Armor's points above and the actual reasoning behind the two
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Yeah I'm fine with either 5x or 14x
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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@Antvasima This is the current vote tally:
- Keep 7.5X: Mr._Bambu, Colonel_Krukov, Propellus, Armorchompy
- Change to 5X: Antvasima, DarkDragonMedeus, LordGriffin1000, Crabwhale, Emirp sumitpo, Lonkitt, KingTempest, Armorchompy, TheRustyOne, KLOL506, Psychomaster35, SeijiSetto, CloverDragon03, Dalesean027, AbaddonTheDisappointment, Dark-Carioca, Therefir
- Change to 14X: Antvasima, Mr._Bambu, Qawsedf234, DarkGrath, Elizhaa, LordGriffin1000, Maverick_Zero_X, Damage3245, Colonel_Krukov, FinePoint, DMUA, Psychomaster35, Jasonsith, Dalesean027, AbaddonTheDisappointment, Dark-Carioca
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Didn't Antvasima retract his vote from the 14x gap.
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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No.
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Oh, I haven't seen that post. Just remembered and older one.
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I'm fine with either 5x or 14x as well
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I thought I said I was fine with 5x
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Prolly must've missed it then.I thought I said I was fine with 5x
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Well, given that it would be very hard to have any matchups at all with just a 5x matchup difference, I think that we need to use 14x for practical rather than realistic reasons, in lack of better options. Meaning that I do not support a 5x difference anymore.
@DarkDragonMedeus @Mr._Bambu @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Ultima_Reality @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @GyroNutz @Firestorm808 @Everything12 @Maverick_Zero_X @Crabwhale @Agnaa @Just_a_Random_Butler @DarkGrath @Executor_N0 @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Mr._Bambu @Therefir @Ugarik @DMUA @Damage3245 @TheRustyOne @DemonGodMitchAubin @Jasonsith @Wokistan @Armorchompy @Migue79 @Psychomaster35 @CloverDragon03 @KLOL506 @M3X_2.0 @Dark-Carioca @AbaddonTheDisappointment @Aguywhodoesthings @Agnaa @Dalesean027 @DemiiPowa @Flashlight237 @SeijiSetto
What are your current views regarding this issue?
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Bambu is twice on this ping list
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Yes. Sorry about that.
Well, they might change their minds to break the deadlock based on the very serious practical issue that I mentioned.
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x14 is just completely irrational. If we're going to ignore realism then we might as well not have a one-shot gap at all, rather than one that's not at all reflective of how things would go down. I don't like it but if we're refusing to look at the facts we might as well be vague about it and say "yeah even a relatively small gap like x4 [random number] can lead ot a one-shot but various factors can play a role therefore we do not have a set in stone one-shot value".
It's dumb but it's better than willingly pretending that an incorrect value is correct just so that we can have vs matches happen. At the very least I demand acknowledgement, even if we do go with x14, that a much smaller gap than that can prove to be nearly insurmountable for the weaker foe and can lead to a one-shot, with 14x only being when AP stomps will basically 100% happen, otherwise I guarantee to you that people will refit their perception of AP gaps and get to conclusions like x10 being a viable gap in a fistfight.
It's dumb but it's better than willingly pretending that an incorrect value is correct just so that we can have vs matches happen. At the very least I demand acknowledgement, even if we do go with x14, that a much smaller gap than that can prove to be nearly insurmountable for the weaker foe and can lead to a one-shot, with 14x only being when AP stomps will basically 100% happen, otherwise I guarantee to you that people will refit their perception of AP gaps and get to conclusions like x10 being a viable gap in a fistfight.
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what we set the gap to is entirely arbitrary
it's not like we instaban matchups that have a more than 7.5x diff as it is right now (because in cases like those it usually comes down to hax or so), so what difference does it make if we change it?
the number by itself does nothing, setting it to 14x won't make a 2 or 3x gap any LESS punishing, for example.
you can be in favor of 14x but the sole reasoning of "a 5x gap would make matchups difficult" when we don't currently restrict matchups based on said gap is kinda flawed, no?
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I don't recall the specifics of this thread but I don't think the 14x was made solely just so we could allow matches to happen. That was just a reason Ant is against 5x. As a whole, matches are made regardless of the number we set as mentioned so I don't believe it holds up as a solid reason.
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It wasn't, but arguments have been made against its validity and ignoring them for the sake of match viability rather than actual accuracy is not acceptable.
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I feel some irony into this piece of the statement, considering that the people that are mostly interested in battleboarding has this same kind of amount
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I technically agree, but I want our members who actually help us out to be able to have some fun here as well.
Mr. Bambu
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"First means I missed it, second means no", perhaps?
I still agree with anything aside from 5x. 7.5x is fine for historical reasons and possesses the exact amount of justification as 5x (but is easier to achieve, as we already have it). 14x is as good a hard-set number as any, even if the choice of lethal wound is basically arbitrarily chosen. I accept either still.
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Keep in mind, I have seen threads be considered an AP stomp when the AP difference was only like 2 or 3 times difference in AP. Though not because it was a "One-shot" per say, but rather because the match basically consisted of 2 nigh identical characters where the only difference was one character being noticeably stronger/tougher. I know decisive victory =/= stomp, but it was agreed if character A was objectively going to win against character B with minimal damage at worst, it's kind of too one-sided.
Now as for other notes, technically, one-shotting has little to do with AP gaps and more to do with sweet spotting; even characters with less AP/Durability can one-shot a character with more AP/Durability via jabbing pressure points. Also, a punch does not need to kill a target for it to be considered a OHKO, as simply knocking them out counts. And furthermore, even AP gaps that are enough to cause a one-shot doesn't have to be labeled as a stomp. A character could still win via other methods such as hax obviously or even via sharp weapons and superior speed, range, and/or skill.
I am still preferring the 5x since that meets our general definition of a gap between a 9-C and baseline 10-B unless we raise our baseline for 9-C up to 450 Joules to keep the 7.5x gap. 14x while based on a reasonable study might come off as pretty high and could perhaps encourage more people to make bad match ups that turn out to be AP stomps. So in the end, I still think 5x is the least bad option.
Now as for other notes, technically, one-shotting has little to do with AP gaps and more to do with sweet spotting; even characters with less AP/Durability can one-shot a character with more AP/Durability via jabbing pressure points. Also, a punch does not need to kill a target for it to be considered a OHKO, as simply knocking them out counts. And furthermore, even AP gaps that are enough to cause a one-shot doesn't have to be labeled as a stomp. A character could still win via other methods such as hax obviously or even via sharp weapons and superior speed, range, and/or skill.
I am still preferring the 5x since that meets our general definition of a gap between a 9-C and baseline 10-B unless we raise our baseline for 9-C up to 450 Joules to keep the 7.5x gap. 14x while based on a reasonable study might come off as pretty high and could perhaps encourage more people to make bad match ups that turn out to be AP stomps. So in the end, I still think 5x is the least bad option.
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