Cell Games Saga revisions (Dragon Ball Z)

[Nullflowerblush]

damn
i tried...

At the very least, Pre-RoSaT SSJ Gotenks and Post-RoSaT Gotenks upscale from High 4-C+ (>15.8587715849 Foe),—with Gotenks surpassing Vegeta (>8151.40859 Quettatons),—thus making Post-RoSaT SSJ Gotenks (>792.938579245 Foe) and Super Gotenks (>3.17175431698 KiloFoe) 4-B.

 

[Veronica]

Also if SPC is 47x baseline solar-system level, wouldn't that technically make SSJ Goku max power Kamehameha also solar-system level?

 

[Damage3245]

Also if SPC is 47x baseline solar-system level, wouldn't that technically make SSJ Goku max power Kamehameha also solar-system level?

I don't think any Super Saiyan Goku is implied to be Solar System level until DBS.

 

[Veronica]

I don't think any Super Saiyan Goku is implied to be Solar System level until DBS.

You mean when he one-shotted Cell in the image training?

 

[Damage3245]

You mean when he one-shotted Cell in the image training?

Yeah, though I don't fully agree with DBS Manga Goku's rating right now but that's a topic for another time.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

To be honest I think saying “over 47 times” isn’t really doing the large power gap between lowballed Cell and his Kamehameha justice. iirc Gohan and Cell are at worst vaguely above 326 Quettatons (4-C; based on them being >2x SSJ Goku), and the gap between the 4-B calc and baseline High 4-C is over 30,000x assuming I did my math right. That’s an enormous power increase for an attack that rarely even surpasses 2x.

Of course if there’s nowhere else to scale them then we can’t really do anything about it, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable to say that that kind of increase for a Kamehameha is kind of bonkers.

 

[Damage3245]

The thing is we run into the issue no matter which scaling we go with because Cell was able to survive hits from Super Saiyan 2 Gohan, yet he was destroyed by Super Saiyan Veget's Final Flash. So we does Vegeta's Final Flash make him 30,000x higher than normal?

I believe avoiding in the downscaling as much as possible if the best solution even if it is not perfect.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

The thing is we run into the issue no matter which scaling we go with because Cell was able to survive hits from Super Saiyan 2 Gohan, yet he was destroyed by Super Saiyan Veget's Final Flash. So we does Vegeta's Final Flash make him 30,000x higher than normal?

I believe avoiding in the downscaling as much as possible if the best solution even if it is not perfect.

I mean was Gohan even trying to kill Cell? Wasn’t Gohan playing around with him due to overconfidence, or am I just mixing up canon and Abridged stuff right now?

Also tbh the Final Flash being 30,000x makes more sense then the Kamehameha being 30,000x since it’s a stronger technique, plus you have arguments that Cell wasn’t at full power when he took that.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

yet he was destroyed by Super Saiyan Veget's Final Flash.

Vegeta damaged a Perfect Cell that admitted its power was eclipsed by Super Trunks; the Perfect Cell that Gohan fought against, even long before unleashing its full strength, was far superior to Goku, who surpassed Trunks at 50%.

 

[Damage3245]

Vegeta damaged a Perfect Cell that admitted its power was eclipsed by Super Trunks; the Perfect Cell that Gohan fought against, even long before unleashing its full strength, was far superior to Goku, who surpassed Trunks at 50%.

True, I was generalising a bit.

 

[Fastestthingalive50]

I entirely disagree with the downgrading, the kamehameha has never been show to cause such an insanely monumental increase that would warrant this.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Vegeta damaged a Perfect Cell that admitted its power was eclipsed by Super Trunks; the Perfect Cell that Gohan fought against, even long before unleashing its full strength, was far superior to Goku, who surpassed Trunks at 50%.

Yeah, also iirc Perfect Cell has no way of downscaling from Super Perfect Cell so he’d have no reasonable way to be 30,000x Vegeta.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Also I mentioned this in passing before, but could we possibly use the Spirit Bomb to set a maximum possible amp for Cell’s Kamehameha? The Saiyan saga Spirit Bomb is 2x base Goku, the Namek saga Spirit Bomb is over 20x base Goku, the Buu saga Spirit Bomb is 400x base Goku and the Universe Survival saga Spirit Bomb is stronger than SSB Goku. Since the difference between base Goku and the Spirit Bomb is always increasing and since the Spirit Bomb is always portrayed as superior to the Kamehameha, couldn’t we upscale SP Cell and enraged SSJ2 Gohan from 1/400th the 4-B calc?

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Agree with the OP.

 

[Damage3245]

Thanks for commenting.

 

[Chariot190]

The thing is we run into the issue no matter which scaling we go with because Cell was able to survive hits from Super Saiyan 2 Gohan, yet he was destroyed by Super Saiyan Veget's Final Flash. So we does Vegeta's Final Flash make him 30,000x higher than normal?

It doesn't. The PC that took hits from Pissed SSJ2 Gohan, and the PC that Final Flash, are not comparable.

The moment Gohan goes SSJ2, before he lands even one hit on Cell, Cell immediately powers up unleashing the full power he was hiding, which Goku points out as he does it.
This one fact makes it so anything before rage amped SSJ2 Gohan and PC, are utterly disconnected in scaling to what comes before them as the Cell that, Trunks, Vegeta, Goku, and even SSJ1 Gohan fought, was an unknown vast amount weaker than the PC that didn't explode on contact with SSJ2.

Vegeta's Final Flash, or even SSJ1 Goku's warp kamehameha, simply does not affect whatever SSJ2 and Full Power PC have going on, they're effectively in their own little bubble.

 

[Damage3245]

Already acknowledged that above.

 

[ChoursDropoff]

Cell wasn’t even trying to destroy the solar system that was a byproduct of him attacking Gohan.

 

[KingTempest]

@Damage3245 what else needs to be done here

 

[Damage3245]

@Damage3245 what else needs to be done here

Need to complete Nullflowerblush's sandbox for the others characters, and wait for the 48 hours to pass before the thread can be added.

 

[CaveGamist]

I don't think any Super Saiyan Goku is implied to be Solar System level until DBS.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I mean what am I supposed to say here? This whole thing is a bunch of nonsense, but when the same few staff can just band together to prevent any kind of dissent from having any impact, it's not like I feel entirely compelled to have a voice here.

I disagree with all of this, but that doesn't mean much

 

[Eseseso]

I mean, it was never indicated that SPC wouldn't survive his own 4-B Kamehameha after it wiped out the Solar System. In fact, he still planned on wiping out all other planets in the verse.

I'm just gonna be neutral for now.

Edit: Wait, a force equal to his Kamehameha killed him in one shot...

Yeah definitely neutral. Both sides have point.

 

[CloverDragon03]

The thing is we run into the issue no matter which scaling we go with because Cell was able to survive hits from Super Saiyan 2 Gohan, yet he was destroyed by Super Saiyan Veget's Final Flash. So we does Vegeta's Final Flash make him 30,000x higher than normal?

I believe avoiding in the downscaling as much as possible if the best solution even if it is not perfect.

Also this is a very bad example considering that Gohan was toying with Cell whereas Vegeta was trying to kill him

 

[Damage3245]

I mean what am I supposed to say here? This whole thing is a bunch of nonsense, but when the same few staff can just band together to prevent any kind of dissent from having any impact, it's not like I feel entirely compelled to have a voice here.

I disagree with all of this, but that doesn't mean much

Okay, thank you for commenting.

I mean, it was never indicated that SPC wouldn't survive his own 4-B Kamehameha after it wiped out the Solar System. In fact, he still planned on wiping out all other planets in the verse.

Cell wasn't trying to hit himself with his own Kamehameha. And for the record it wasn't stated that Cell was actually aiming to blow up the Solar System itself with his final attack; his final attack was just that strong. The target of his attack was Gohan / the Earth, not necessarily the Solar System.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Edit: Wait, a force equal to his Kamehameha killed him in one shot...

Oh, I hadn't even thought about that.

 

[Ednaxel2]

Sorry for not keeping up as I'm late and I've only read the OP, but my main issue is with this is how it affects Buu Saga tiers. Cause if we continue multiplying the rest of the characters based on the Frieza calc then even Vegito would die to a Kamehameha from Cell. I think it's best to keep it the way it is OR suggest another way to downscale.

SS3 Goku's energy from mearly transforming was so powerful it could be felt in the Kaioshin realm, something we know can't be said for Cell/Gohan was they charged and fired their kamehamehas, SS3 Goku was also able to physically knock away Buu's copied kamehameha (though it wasn't charged as long as Cell/Gohan's blast).

Having SS3 Goku normally be above Gohan and Cell's Kamehameha would make the downscaling easier as Goku is only stronger than Cell Games Gohan as a SS2 meaning he's inferior as a SS1:

SS3 Goku (Majin Buu Saga) >4x SS2 Goku (Majin Buu Saga) >2x SS1 Goku (Majin Buu Saga) < SS2 Gohan (Cell Games)

So Gohan should be less than 1/8th of his Kamehameha physically. Not sure if this would be the best solution

 

[CloverDragon03]

Sorry for not keeping up as I'm late and I've only read the OP, but my main issue is with this is how it affects Buu Saga tiers. Cause if we continue multiplying the rest of the characters based on the Frieza calc then even Vegito would die to a Kamehameha from Cell. I think it's best to keep it the way it is OR suggest another way to downscale.

SS3 Goku's energy from mearly transforming was so powerful it could be felt in the Kaioshin realm, something we know can't be said for Cell/Gohan was they charged and fired their kamehamehas, SS3 Goku was also able to physically knock away Buu's copied kamehameha (though it wasn't charged as long as Cell/Gohan's blast).

Having SS3 Goku normally be above Gohan and Cell's Kamehameha would make the downscaling easier as Goku is only stronger than Cell Games Gohan as a SS2 meaning he's inferior as a SS1:

SS3 Goku (Majin Buu Saga) >4x SS2 Goku (Majin Buu Saga) >2x SS1 Goku (Majin Buu Saga) < SS2 Gohan (Cell Games)

So Gohan should be less than 1/8th of his Kamehameha physically. Not sure if this would be the best solution

I much prefer this solution for actually having a logical basis and not resulting in ludicrous things like Vegito dying to SPC's Kamehameha

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Vegito would die to a Kamehameha from Cell

Super Gotenks is, like, 3x the Solar Kamehameha so...

SS3 Goku's energy from mearly transforming was so powerful it could be felt in the Kaioshin realm, something we know can't be said for Cell/Gohan was they charged and fired their kamehamehas

we don't know actually

(though it wasn't charged as long as Cell/Gohan's blast)

Then, why even mention it?

 

[CloverDragon03]

we don't know actually

Nothing of that sort was felt by King Kai during any of the Gohan vs. Cell stuff, even the Kamehameha clash, whereas he felt Goku powering up into SSJ3

 

[Damage3245]

Nothing of that sort was felt by King Kai during any of the Gohan vs. Cell stuff, even the Kamehameha clash

Just want to note that King Kai was dead by the point of the Kamehameha clash and was basically being just used as a radio by Goku.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Nothing of that sort was felt by King Kai during any of the Gohan vs. Cell stuff, even the Kamehameha clash, whereas he felt Goku powering up into SSJ3

You do realize that King Kai was actively participating in telepathic communication between Goku and Gohan, right? Why would he need to see his reaction to their energy when he was already shown observing the battle? It wouldn't provide anything like the reactions from the Z-Fighters do.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Just want to note that King Kai was dead by the point of the Kamehameha clash and was basically being just used as a radio by Goku.

He was dead when Goku was going SSJ3 too... This doesn't really change anything

 

[CloverDragon03]

You do realize that King Kai was actively participating in telepathic communication between Goku and Gohan, right? Why would he need to see his reaction to their energy when he was already shown observing the battle? It wouldn't provide anything like the reactions from the Z-Fighters do.

Well yeah he was doing all that, but us not getting anything about the energy being felt from over there means it wasn't potent enough to reach there, whereas we know from the Buu Saga that potent enough energy can reach there

 

[Chariot190]

Reading the chapter.

Ignoring Cell, who did seem to take a few moments to charge up a kamehameha, the opposite could be said of Gohan.

Gohan didn't really even charge up his kamehameha, it wasn't a special kamehameha in anyway whatsoever, not only did he begin charging way after Cell, but in the time it took him to say the name, he was done charging, fired, and managed to clash with Cell's, all while actively not using his full power as said by Goku like 3 pages later.

Unless we want to say a normal ass kamehameha that's actively being held back and not even using his full power, is thousands of times above Gohan's usual stats, something don't up.

Additionally, Cell wasn't one shot by an attack equal to his kamehameha, he was one shot by Gohan unleashing his full power in a split moment, eating his kamehameha, and him. That is not the same as being killed by an attack equal to his own, because that simply isn't what happened.

 

[Veronica]

I mean what am I supposed to say here? This whole thing is a bunch of nonsense, but when the same few staff can just band together to prevent any kind of dissent from having any impact, it's not like I feel entirely compelled to have a voice here.

I disagree with all of this, but that doesn't mean much

But isn't it true that SKK>his punch?

 

[Nullflowerblush]

i mean didn't the daizenshuu say goku gave gohan some of his own power? plus there's that whole genki thing going on where being motivated grants a boost. isn't that accepted on the ki page?

 

[Chariot190]

i mean didn't the daizenshuu say goku gave gohan some of his own power? plus there's that whole genki thing going on where being motivated grants a boost. isn't that accepted on the ki page?

That's def the case in the anime, but in the manga, literally all I'm seeing is Goku going "bro gohan, youre holding back wtf" and then Gohan unleashing all his power and eating the Solar Kamehameha and Cell. It's only ever worded in regards to Gohan's own power.

And well, even if it was the case, so? Goku is like 20,000x less than said attack, he could have given ALL his power, it wouldn't have done shit to actually change anything, he's a complete nonfactor.

 

[Damage3245]

I'm not strictly opposed by the way to scaling SSJ3 Goku to Cell's Solar Kamehameha. There were noticeably similar effects in their displayed power here and here. (Though this might not mean much... Even Vegeta can do this)

Just waiting to see what others say.

 

[Ednaxel2]

Super Gotenks is, like, 3x the Solar Kamehameha so...

How??