- 16,927
- 4,844
This is to continue from this thread. Because of the several pages put into the discussion, and newer stuff being recently brought up in an already long discussion with people having left mid way in to not see it, this thread is going to be made specifically to talk about this feat and ONLY the new arguments for scaling reactions to the travel speed so that it can be properly evaluated without getting cluttered up. Now, let's get to the main point.
In the previous thread, this is the travel speed feat of discussion:
Because of the new rules on flight speed not scaling to reactions by default, this long discussion has been to discuss whether or not this travel speed feat would scale to the character's reactions under the new rule, followed by pages of discussion and points cluttered together. After analyzing said points and having them dropped during the thread, I've put forth new evidence that hasn't been given much evaluation, but should be able to suffice in scaling. This thread is to specifically address this new evidence only.
Now, as outlined in our speed rules, dodging unexpected obstacles is able to allow reactions to scale. This wasn't considered earlier in the previous thread, but evidence was found that suggests unexpected obstacles, and dangerous obstacles at that, were potentially dodged by the characters here in this speed feat. Without slowing.
At the time this speed feat was done, the planet the characters here travel to was being invaded by an enemy that becomes the main antagonist over the course of the series later. This early into the series, this enemy was recognized as a mysterious power spreading across Cray, destroying all life it comes across when it's presence passes through, threatening to bring the planet and all of it's inhabitants to extinction if not dealt with.
Quite obviously, this enemy at this time is portrayed as such a big unexpected threat with it's presence already covering large swaths of the planet that the planet's inhabitants knew almost nothing about, other than that it's a huge threat to their world and proves fatal to them as it continues to spread. So when coming across this enemy's presence, one would clearly want to do everything they can to avoid this shit so that it doesn't, well....kill them. These characters coming across this enemy's presence during the feat would give them an unexpected and highly dangerous obstacle to avoid when approaching the planet.
And we don't have to play guessing games and just assume they came across this during the feat. We literally see them approach this enemy's presence when approaching the planet.
So all in all, by going near a force thats spreading, seen as a deadly presence and can literally kill you when near it, this should be good reasoning to claim they would avoid it, and at top speed, to avoid getting killed by it.
Now, to address possible counters against this:
"They knew the enemy was on the planet beforehand, so it wouldn't be an unexpected obstacle"
This uses bigger assumptions and borderline headcanon to argue against the simplicity of it being an obstacle. While the characters were aware of the planet being invaded by this large scale enemy, that is all that they knew of it when doing this feat. It invading the planet.
They were not in the know on specifics such as how much the enemy spread across the planet to know specific locations to go to in order to avoid it, nor they knew how fast this enemy was spreading across the planet to discern when and where to go to avoid it. This assumption only works if you assume the characters knew those kind of details beforehand or during the flight, which the series never proves or even implies this is the case. The fact that the path they were traveling on goes near the enemies presence when approaching the planet in the first place would show they didn't, and could not discern until getting close to it. Otherwise, they wouldn't have gone anywhere near it but avoided it all together.
This enemy being an unexpected obstacle also fits within the context the series gives at this point in time. They hardly knew anything about this enemy, so being unable to discern it or it's activity until extremely close to it is already supported by the series context, as opposed to having to assume 1, if not, 2 baseless assumptions in order to argue against it.
"The obstacle being dangerous would imply they'd carefully approach it instead of flying full speed"
This argument also doesn't quite work here for at least two or three reasons.
First, as already said above, they'd have to know the specifics of how much of the planet this enemy spread across, and how fast the enemy was spreading across the planet, in order to cautiously approach and avoid it completely. What was shown debunks this possibility entirely.
Second, if you are to assume they would discern the enemies presence early and then slow down before approaching it, the characters would then logically go to avoid the obstacle by not flying near it in the first place. They would've started slowing down super early so that when approaching the planet, they wouldn't go on a path that goes right up and near this enemies presence, but avoid it all together and search for a place on the planet that isn't near the enemy's presence. But as my scans show, this is not the case.
Third, more importantly, this isn't simply some small ranged stationary obstacle you would see to slow down and go around, under, or avoid like an asteroid belt or something. This enemy's presence, as an obstacle, covers an extremely large range and is a moving obstacle for continuing to spread across this range at a fast pace. Not only would slowing down to search for an un touched place not make sense, as the enemy would spread to it before you get the chance to do that, but slowing down in relation to a moving obstacle that's spreading from every direction towards you puts you at risk at being in contact the moment you slow down, instead of moving as fast as possible to get out of it's way before it touches you. And I don't think I need to explain why slowing down would be silly in a circumstance like that.
Even if by some chance that there's some amount of reasonability to think they would slow down when approaching this enemies presence, this said presence would continue to be moving towards them when they've slowed or come to a stop, so they would have to move again in order to then avoid getting in contact, and therefore, killed by it.
TL;DR:
Focusing on this new evidence brought up specifically, there should be plenty of reasonability for these guys to avoid the enemy as an obstacle at average / top speed.
Agree: @DarkDragonMedeus , @KieranH10 , @NomsNoms , @KingTempest
In the previous thread, this is the travel speed feat of discussion:
Because of the new rules on flight speed not scaling to reactions by default, this long discussion has been to discuss whether or not this travel speed feat would scale to the character's reactions under the new rule, followed by pages of discussion and points cluttered together. After analyzing said points and having them dropped during the thread, I've put forth new evidence that hasn't been given much evaluation, but should be able to suffice in scaling. This thread is to specifically address this new evidence only.
Now, as outlined in our speed rules, dodging unexpected obstacles is able to allow reactions to scale. This wasn't considered earlier in the previous thread, but evidence was found that suggests unexpected obstacles, and dangerous obstacles at that, were potentially dodged by the characters here in this speed feat. Without slowing.
At the time this speed feat was done, the planet the characters here travel to was being invaded by an enemy that becomes the main antagonist over the course of the series later. This early into the series, this enemy was recognized as a mysterious power spreading across Cray, destroying all life it comes across when it's presence passes through, threatening to bring the planet and all of it's inhabitants to extinction if not dealt with.
Quite obviously, this enemy at this time is portrayed as such a big unexpected threat with it's presence already covering large swaths of the planet that the planet's inhabitants knew almost nothing about, other than that it's a huge threat to their world and proves fatal to them as it continues to spread. So when coming across this enemy's presence, one would clearly want to do everything they can to avoid this shit so that it doesn't, well....kill them. These characters coming across this enemy's presence during the feat would give them an unexpected and highly dangerous obstacle to avoid when approaching the planet.
And we don't have to play guessing games and just assume they came across this during the feat. We literally see them approach this enemy's presence when approaching the planet.
So all in all, by going near a force thats spreading, seen as a deadly presence and can literally kill you when near it, this should be good reasoning to claim they would avoid it, and at top speed, to avoid getting killed by it.
Now, to address possible counters against this:
"They knew the enemy was on the planet beforehand, so it wouldn't be an unexpected obstacle"
This uses bigger assumptions and borderline headcanon to argue against the simplicity of it being an obstacle. While the characters were aware of the planet being invaded by this large scale enemy, that is all that they knew of it when doing this feat. It invading the planet.
They were not in the know on specifics such as how much the enemy spread across the planet to know specific locations to go to in order to avoid it, nor they knew how fast this enemy was spreading across the planet to discern when and where to go to avoid it. This assumption only works if you assume the characters knew those kind of details beforehand or during the flight, which the series never proves or even implies this is the case. The fact that the path they were traveling on goes near the enemies presence when approaching the planet in the first place would show they didn't, and could not discern until getting close to it. Otherwise, they wouldn't have gone anywhere near it but avoided it all together.
This enemy being an unexpected obstacle also fits within the context the series gives at this point in time. They hardly knew anything about this enemy, so being unable to discern it or it's activity until extremely close to it is already supported by the series context, as opposed to having to assume 1, if not, 2 baseless assumptions in order to argue against it.
"The obstacle being dangerous would imply they'd carefully approach it instead of flying full speed"
This argument also doesn't quite work here for at least two or three reasons.
First, as already said above, they'd have to know the specifics of how much of the planet this enemy spread across, and how fast the enemy was spreading across the planet, in order to cautiously approach and avoid it completely. What was shown debunks this possibility entirely.
Second, if you are to assume they would discern the enemies presence early and then slow down before approaching it, the characters would then logically go to avoid the obstacle by not flying near it in the first place. They would've started slowing down super early so that when approaching the planet, they wouldn't go on a path that goes right up and near this enemies presence, but avoid it all together and search for a place on the planet that isn't near the enemy's presence. But as my scans show, this is not the case.
Third, more importantly, this isn't simply some small ranged stationary obstacle you would see to slow down and go around, under, or avoid like an asteroid belt or something. This enemy's presence, as an obstacle, covers an extremely large range and is a moving obstacle for continuing to spread across this range at a fast pace. Not only would slowing down to search for an un touched place not make sense, as the enemy would spread to it before you get the chance to do that, but slowing down in relation to a moving obstacle that's spreading from every direction towards you puts you at risk at being in contact the moment you slow down, instead of moving as fast as possible to get out of it's way before it touches you. And I don't think I need to explain why slowing down would be silly in a circumstance like that.
Even if by some chance that there's some amount of reasonability to think they would slow down when approaching this enemies presence, this said presence would continue to be moving towards them when they've slowed or come to a stop, so they would have to move again in order to then avoid getting in contact, and therefore, killed by it.
TL;DR:
Focusing on this new evidence brought up specifically, there should be plenty of reasonability for these guys to avoid the enemy as an obstacle at average / top speed.
Agree: @DarkDragonMedeus , @KieranH10 , @NomsNoms , @KingTempest
Last edited: