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Cardfight!! Vanguard Speed Re-Upgrade

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This is to continue from this thread. Because of the several pages put into the discussion, and newer stuff being recently brought up in an already long discussion with people having left mid way in to not see it, this thread is going to be made specifically to talk about this feat and ONLY the new arguments for scaling reactions to the travel speed so that it can be properly evaluated without getting cluttered up. Now, let's get to the main point.

In the previous thread, this is the travel speed feat of discussion:



Because of the new rules on flight speed not scaling to reactions by default, this long discussion has been to discuss whether or not this travel speed feat would scale to the character's reactions under the new rule, followed by pages of discussion and points cluttered together. After analyzing said points and having them dropped during the thread, I've put forth new evidence that hasn't been given much evaluation, but should be able to suffice in scaling. This thread is to specifically address this new evidence only.

Now, as outlined in our speed rules, dodging unexpected obstacles is able to allow reactions to scale. This wasn't considered earlier in the previous thread, but evidence was found that suggests unexpected obstacles, and dangerous obstacles at that, were potentially dodged by the characters here in this speed feat. Without slowing.

At the time this speed feat was done, the planet the characters here travel to was being invaded by an enemy that becomes the main antagonist over the course of the series later. This early into the series, this enemy was recognized as a mysterious power spreading across Cray, destroying all life it comes across when it's presence passes through, threatening to bring the planet and all of it's inhabitants to extinction if not dealt with.

246410317_590024725373224_1200981419278794177_n.png


246579313_3144844009072091_2583473350559132533_n.png


246610857_432415458242020_3525690282852716420_n.png



Quite obviously, this enemy at this time is portrayed as such a big unexpected threat with it's presence already covering large swaths of the planet that the planet's inhabitants knew almost nothing about, other than that it's a huge threat to their world and proves fatal to them as it continues to spread. So when coming across this enemy's presence, one would clearly want to do everything they can to avoid this shit so that it doesn't, well....kill them. These characters coming across this enemy's presence during the feat would give them an unexpected and highly dangerous obstacle to avoid when approaching the planet.

And we don't have to play guessing games and just assume they came across this during the feat. We literally see them approach this enemy's presence when approaching the planet.

246670828_400828668201773_7568836764185897841_n.png


So all in all, by going near a force thats spreading, seen as a deadly presence and can literally kill you when near it, this should be good reasoning to claim they would avoid it, and at top speed, to avoid getting killed by it.

Now, to address possible counters against this:

"They knew the enemy was on the planet beforehand, so it wouldn't be an unexpected obstacle"

This uses bigger assumptions and borderline headcanon to argue against the simplicity of it being an obstacle. While the characters were aware of the planet being invaded by this large scale enemy, that is all that they knew of it when doing this feat. It invading the planet.

They were not in the know on specifics such as how much the enemy spread across the planet to know specific locations to go to in order to avoid it, nor they knew how fast this enemy was spreading across the planet to discern when and where to go to avoid it. This assumption only works if you assume the characters knew those kind of details beforehand or during the flight, which the series never proves or even implies this is the case. The fact that the path they were traveling on goes near the enemies presence when approaching the planet in the first place would show they didn't, and could not discern until getting close to it. Otherwise, they wouldn't have gone anywhere near it but avoided it all together.

This enemy being an unexpected obstacle also fits within the context the series gives at this point in time. They hardly knew anything about this enemy, so being unable to discern it or it's activity until extremely close to it is already supported by the series context, as opposed to having to assume 1, if not, 2 baseless assumptions in order to argue against it.

"The obstacle being dangerous would imply they'd carefully approach it instead of flying full speed"

This argument also doesn't quite work here for at least two or three reasons.

First, as already said above, they'd have to know the specifics of how much of the planet this enemy spread across, and how fast the enemy was spreading across the planet, in order to cautiously approach and avoid it completely. What was shown debunks this possibility entirely.

Second, if you are to assume they would discern the enemies presence early and then slow down before approaching it, the characters would then logically go to avoid the obstacle by not flying near it in the first place. They would've started slowing down super early so that when approaching the planet, they wouldn't go on a path that goes right up and near this enemies presence, but avoid it all together and search for a place on the planet that isn't near the enemy's presence. But as my scans show, this is not the case.

Third, more importantly, this isn't simply some small ranged stationary obstacle you would see to slow down and go around, under, or avoid like an asteroid belt or something. This enemy's presence, as an obstacle, covers an extremely large range and is a moving obstacle for continuing to spread across this range at a fast pace. Not only would slowing down to search for an un touched place not make sense, as the enemy would spread to it before you get the chance to do that, but slowing down in relation to a moving obstacle that's spreading from every direction towards you puts you at risk at being in contact the moment you slow down, instead of moving as fast as possible to get out of it's way before it touches you. And I don't think I need to explain why slowing down would be silly in a circumstance like that.

Even if by some chance that there's some amount of reasonability to think they would slow down when approaching this enemies presence, this said presence would continue to be moving towards them when they've slowed or come to a stop, so they would have to move again in order to then avoid getting in contact, and therefore, killed by it.

TL;DR:

Focusing on this new evidence brought up specifically, there should be plenty of reasonability for these guys to avoid the enemy as an obstacle at average / top speed.

Agree: @DarkDragonMedeus , @KieranH10 , @NomsNoms , @KingTempest
 
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All I'm going to say is please keep the (below) discussion calm, respectful and in good faith folks. The last thing anyone wants is another long winded augment that does more harm than good.

Now I'm outta here (But I really feel like a compromise is truly the best solution after the last CFV CRT kinda concluded abruptly imo).
 
All I'm going to say is please keep the (below) discussion calm, respectful and in good faith folks. The last thing anyone wants is another long winded augment that does more harm than good.

Now I'm outta here (But I really feel like a compromise is truly the best solution after the last CFV CRT kinda concluded abruptly imo).
Noted. What do you think about this though Axiom?
 
Noted. What do you think about this though Axiom?
Honestly the speed standards here are in flux and it sometimes feels like the goalposts are getting moved to the point it's kinda not worth discussing imo (I've already commented in length in the past why I don't even use this site's speed standards anymore so I digress) because of this I can't really give an opinion on speed standards since it's all fluff to me personally but I will say your arguments are well presented at least and I can understand the pressure of essentially supporting an entire verse by yourself.

Like I mentioned on the original CRT I have got zero stakes in this and tbh I have only watched Cardfight Vanguard once a long time ago (Essentially I don't think I'm knowledgeable about the verse in question to really give an informed opinion about the speed feats above).

So put me on "neutral" I guess? And I wish you (And those who contribute to this CRT) well.

Now I'm outta here for reals this time.
 
I have no idea on anything to do with the verse. But the OP seems to make sense, so this all seems fine.
 
So all in all, by going near a force thats spreading, seen as a deadly presence and can literally kill you when near it, this should be good reasoning to claim they would avoid it, and at top speed, to avoid getting killed by it.

Question: How fast was this deadly presence spreading?
 
Copy pasting the same stuff from the other thread... wow

So nothing has changed. Still no proof of any maneuvering to avoid unexpected obstacles at MFTL+ speeds. Just assumptions and headcanons. This isn't going to pass and I'd appreciate you stop bringing it up repeatedly.
 
1. No proof of them travelling at top speed in that instance when they are very close to the destination and would have logically slow down in order to avoid crashing into the planet and accidently destroying it.
2. Literally shown to travel in a straight line with no obstacle coming to harm them as they enter the planet.
3. Never shown to maneuver at top speed, which only comes from some weird assumption of events and is pure headcanon.
4. Characters know there is an unknown presence which can also be seen from far away, which disables any scaling to reactions.

This is literally not a case where someone is getting caught off guard by some unexpected obstacle so that they have to react at the very last moment to avoid it. So it quite blatantly won't scale to reactions according to the standards.

Not going to bother with this too much, unless something new is brought up.
 
1. No proof of them travelling at top speed in that instance when they are very close to the destination and would have logically slow down in order to avoid crashing into the planet and accidently destroying it.

-In a rush to get to the location as fast as possible

-knows the location would have lethal force spreading across it, slowing down puts them at risk at coming across it

You need a reason at this point for them to slow that early.

2. Literally shown to travel in a straight line.
Landing location isn't in the path traveled. Already showed and proved this with scans. Next.
3. Never shown to maneuver at top speed, which only comes from some weird assumption of events and is pure headcanon.
Literally showing them passing the location when approaching isn't headcanon. Next.
4. Characters know there is an unknown presence which can also be seen from far away, which disables any scaling to reactions.
Headcanon. They know the presence is there, but do not know specifics of how much it's covering the planet to know what to see or discern. Hell, they wouldn't even know what it looks like. Them traveling right near it proves me right. Next.
This is literally not a case where someone is getting caught off guard by some unexpected obstacle
An enemy they, at this point, hardly knew jack shit about definitely constitutes being an unexpected obstacle. To argue otherwise has to use assumption and heacanon, not the other away around.
 
Still still far, far slower than MFTL+ speeds?
Why would this mean lower than MFTL+?
In other words, even if they wanted to avoid it, there'd still be no need for them to be travelling at top speed in order to be ahead of it spreading.
The issue however is that when they are approaching the planet, they go right near the deadly presence. Literally right near it. By this point in the series, they know hardly anything about it, which includes not knowing what it looks like or what it would be.

So by coming extremely close to it, to then see it rapidly spread near them, they'd move as fast as possible to avoid dying. This would have to be the case, or else they would never travel near it in the first place.
 
This thread in a nutshell:

1. How to prove travel speed scales to reactions?

2. Assume that reactions scale to travel speed.

3. Because of the above assumption, claim that they were maneuvering frantically while traveling at MFTL+ speeds, which is only possible if above assumption is true.

4. Hence claim that you've proven travel speed scales to reactions.

I never knew the best way to prove something was to assume it.
 
And we don't have to play guessing games and just assume they came across this during the feat. We literally see them approach this enemy's presence when approaching the planet.

Wait what? Your screencap below this is circling the light from the character in question flying to the planet. Here's a screencap from a second beforehand without that in the way, and I can't see any "enemy's presence", just an ordinary planet. Is that cyan meant to be the enemy's presence? If so, how do you know that?

"The obstacle being dangerous would imply they'd carefully approach it instead of flying full speed"

This argument also doesn't quite work here for at least two or three reasons.


I'd more say "They're approaching a planet from another universe, so they'd have slowed down somewhat by the time they're in the planet's atmosphere", as our standards on scaling flight speeds reflect. Maybe that reason's bad, but there's still other reasons provided by our standards that aren't addressed.

Even if by some chance that there's some amount of reasonability to think they would slow down when approaching this enemies presence, this said presence would continue to be moving towards them when they've slowed or come to a stop, so they would have to move again in order to then avoid getting in contact, and therefore, killed by it.


We don't have to say they're slower than the enemy.

How fast is the enemy from other feats? We could say they're reacting at the speed it spreads. They can't be moving too fast considering it hasn't spread over the entire planet, and these characters in question flew across the observable universe in 3 seconds. They wouldn't need anything near that to outspeed them.

If you go to 0:32 in this clip, it's spreading across the planet very quickly. In less than 2 seconds, it's already covering vast swaths of the planet.


I don't think that's what's happening in that clip. I think the enemy had already reached those locations and is creating explosions in them. Otherwise the planet would have been completely covered in less than a minute after the invasion started, which I doubt lines up with the story.
 
And we don't have to play guessing games and just assume they came across this during the feat. We literally see them approach this enemy's presence when approaching the planet.

Wait what? Your screencap below this is circling the light from the character in question flying to the planet. Here's a screencap from a second beforehand without that in the way, and I can't see any "enemy's presence", just an ordinary planet. Is that cyan meant to be the enemy's presence? If so, how do you know that?
The black stuff that are covering swathes of the Planet is the enemies presence.

See this scan of the planet without any of it:

unknown.png


Then with it:

247317157_1605833299756475_8371451097681115790_n.png

I'd more say "They're approaching a planet from another universe, so they'd have slowed down somewhat by the time they're in the planet's atmosphere", as our standards on scaling flight speeds reflect. Maybe that reason's bad, but there's still other reasons provided by our standards that aren't addressed.
Which ones did I miss?
Even if by some chance that there's some amount of reasonability to think they would slow down when approaching this enemies presence, this said presence would continue to be moving towards them when they've slowed or come to a stop, so they would have to move again in order to then avoid getting in contact, and therefore, killed by it.

We don't have to say they're slower than the enemy.

How fast is the enemy from other feats? We could say they're reacting at the speed it spreads. They can't be moving too fast considering it hasn't spread over the entire planet, and these characters in question flew across the observable universe in 3 seconds. They wouldn't need anything near that to outspeed them.
Well, other than the feat I linked for Damage earlier, it's implied the enemy also has a universe crossing feat of it's own if this helps (just recalled this now, thats why I didn't post it earlier btw).

The enemies presence is cited by Takuto in this point in the series to be traveling from Cray into a space he brought the series's main characters to, and after destroying it, it would travel to Earth next.

246981199_389863439514096_5375225103896681626_n.png

247110734_257551692976907_182310453858907639_n.png

246724009_198306259111934_3189556448438744297_n.png
 
By the way, quick question thats semi unrelated but also related to this discussion.

For a travel feat, if a character was unconsciously traveling somewhere or being physically moved somewhere by force, doesn't see the end location until the literal last moment and can stop themselves, how good could the reactions be?
 
The black stuff that are covering swathes of the Planet is the enemies presence.

Oh okay, in which case the area they flew into was absolutely not covered by the black stuff, so your point there is still wrong.

Which ones did I miss?


The one I mentioned a sentence earlier. Sorry if my wording was confusing, I meant to say the reason you provided in the OP may be bad, but that's not the reasoning given by the standards page.

Well, other than the feat I linked for Damage earlier, it's implied the enemy also has a universe crossing feat of it's own if this helps (just recalled this now, thats why I didn't post it earlier btw).

The enemies presence is cited by Takuto in this point in the series to be traveling from Cray into a space he brought the series's main characters to, and after destroying it, it would travel to Earth next.


Well hey, if they're capable of doing that yet aren't taking over planets in 0.00000000001 seconds, then it sounds like they're also slower when not traveling across the universe.

For a travel feat, if a character was unconsciously traveling somewhere or being physically moved somewhere by force, doesn't see the end location until the literal last moment and can stop themselves, how good could the reactions be?


Fairly good, but there would still be some amount of slowdown.
 
Oh okay, in which case the area they flew into was absolutely not covered by the black stuff, so your point there is still wrong.
The point is that they are near the enemies presence in the area they flew into.
Well hey, if they're capable of doing that yet aren't taking over planets in 0.00000000001 seconds, then it sounds like they're also slower when not traveling across the universe.
Your sort've forgetting the planets inhabitants, which would be offering obvious resistance against an invading power to not get instantaneously conquered.
Fairly good, but there would still be some amount of slowdown.
My bad I forgot to add in another detail to this. What if they are extremely close to the end location and don't see it until the last moment? For example, coming to the ground of the planet?
 
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The point is that they are near the enemies presence in the area they flew into.

They are not near at all. They are, at closest 55 pixels away from the enemies' presence. That planet has a diameter of 706 pixels. Assuming that diameter's comparable to the Earth's (12,700 km), they would be landing about 990km away from the enemies. That is not near at all.

Your sort've forgetting the planets inhabitants, which would be offering obvious resistance against an invading power to not get instantaneously conquered.


If the planet's inhabitants are stopping the spread so well, why would the character in question need to worry about avoiding it when they're heading in 990km away from the enemies' frontier?

My bad I forgot to add in another detail to this. What if they are extremely close to the end location and don't see it until the last moment? For example, coming to the ground of the planet?


The slowdown would be on the behalf of the entity doing the transporting.
 
They are not near at all. They are, at closest 55 pixels away from the enemies' presence. That planet has a diameter of 706 pixels. Assuming that diameter's comparable to the Earth's (12,700 km), they would be landing about 990km away from the enemies. That is not near at all.
That isn't the accepted size of Cray here. That said, I see your point now when looking at the math done for this.

However, my new points for trajectory should still hold. And if the characters have reasons to be rushing to the location, should that not counter the default assumption for slowing?
The slowdown would be on the behalf of the entity doing the transporting.
Okay. Now, what if the entity causing the transporting on someone else is also doing it unconsciously?
 
However, my new points for trajectory should still hold. And if the characters have reasons to be rushing to the location, should that not counter the default assumption for slowing?

What are your new points for trajectory?

I don't think so, I don't think getting there in 0.0001 seconds versus getting there in 0.00000000000000000000000001 seconds really matters that much. We're not assuming they'd dawdle around and take minutes to travel there.

Okay. Now, what if the entity causing the transporting on someone else is also doing it unconsciously?


No? Pre-programmed flight paths can still involve slowdown.
 
However, my new points for trajectory should still hold. And if the characters have reasons to be rushing to the location, should that not counter the default assumption for slowing?

What are your new points for trajectory?
Gimme a sec to get the new scans, but basically there’s evidence to prove more explicitly that trajectory had to happen instead of assuming it.
I don't think so, I don't think getting there in 0.0001 seconds versus getting there in 0.00000000000000000000000001 seconds really matters that much. We're not assuming they'd dawdle around and take minutes to travel there.

This isn’t what I meant. I meant if they are rushing or have reasons to rush, that should negate the default assumption of slowing.

Okay. Now, what if the entity causing the transporting on someone else is also doing it unconsciously?

No? Pre-programmed flight paths can still involve slowdown.
I didn’t mean pre-programmed, I meant they unconsciously did it out of nowhere with no preset intent to. It being a “it just happened” scenario.
 
This isn’t what I meant. I meant if they are rushing or have reasons to rush, that should negate the default assumption of slowing.

That idea is exactly what I was responding to. I don't think rushing precludes slowing down such that they'd arrive 0.00001 seconds later.

I didn’t mean pre-programmed, I meant they unconsciously did it out of nowhere with no preset intent to. It being a “it just happened” scenario.


I don't really understand this, that'd have to come from somewhere. If their powers malfunctioned, their powers directed it. If they did it unconsciously, they unconsciously directed it.
 
This isn’t what I meant. I meant if they are rushing or have reasons to rush, that should negate the default assumption of slowing.

That idea is exactly what I was responding to. I don't think rushing precludes slowing down such that they'd arrive 0.00001 seconds later.
Okay then why not if you can say?
I didn’t mean pre-programmed, I meant they unconsciously did it out of nowhere with no preset intent to. It being a “it just happened” scenario.

I don't really understand this, that'd have to come from somewhere. If their powers malfunctioned, their powers directed it. If they did it unconsciously, they unconsciously directed it.
That doesn’t make sense, how can you direct something you aren’t consciously causing? And by that I mean cause a slowdown to happen without active intent?
 
Okay then why not if you can say?

Because such delay would be miniscule with the timescales these series tend to operate from. Considering you're saying that they'd need to rush to escape the enemies when they'd be, at minimum, hundreds of kilometers away and barely advancing over that period of time, I don't think it's justified to keep their speeds that high.

That doesn’t make sense, how can you direct something you aren’t consciously causing? And by that I mean cause a slowdown to happen without active intent?


The same way you could cause the flight to happen without active intent. Unconsciously.
 
Spoke with Kuki about this in a PM.

I think the planetary landing seems more like a crash-landing that doesn't scale to their speed, but this seems solid if they avoided an enemy (one of somewhat similar speed, which I asked about but never got an answer to) in mid-flight.

I'm not claiming the OP doesn't need proof, but the onus to actually prove that they decelerated or have some method to slow down should definitely be on the people claiming they decelerated or have some method to slow down.
 
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Because such delay would be miniscule with the timescales these series tend to operate from. Considering you're saying that they'd need to rush to escape the enemies when they'd be, at minimum, hundreds of kilometers away and barely advancing over that period of time, I don't think it's justified to keep their speeds that high.
Avoiding the enemy wasn’t the only reason for why they’d be in a rush to their location however, it’s also because the enemy poses an extremely big threat to their world and they came to the planet in the first place with the intent to confirm if something that becomes very important in dealing with this enemy happened.
That doesn’t make sense, how can you direct something you aren’t consciously causing? And by that I mean cause a slowdown to happen without active intent?

The same way you could cause the flight to happen without active intent. Unconsciously.
I don’t see how both fall under the same boat instead of the lesser assumption that an unconscious circumstance would end with no slowdown.

Never heard of slowing down when not paying attention to cause that.
 
I think the planetary landing seems more like a crash-landing that doesn't scale to their speed, but this seems solid if they avoided an enemy (one of somewhat similar speed, which I asked about but never got an answer to) in mid-flight.

But they didn't. As I pointed out, they entered hundreds of kilometers away from the enemies. And there's no known interaction with the mid-flight. And there's no demonstration of the enemies having high reaction speeds.

I'm not claiming the OP doesn't need proof, but the onus to actually prove that they decelerated or have some method to slow down should definitely be on the people claiming they decelerated or have some method to slow down.

That idea you're voicing (that we assume there's no slowdown in flight speed feats) goes against the site's standards, as discussed extensively in these threads.

If you think it should work that way, make a thread to try changing the site's standards, instead of voting in threads in ways that go contrary to these standards.

Avoiding the enemy wasn’t the only reason for why they’d be in a rush to their location however, it’s also because the enemy poses an extremely big threat to their world and they came to the planet in the first place with the intent to confirm if something that becomes very important in dealing with this enemy happened.

And like I said, with the timescale of events, I don't think arriving there 0.000001 seconds later really matters for that.

I don’t see how both fall under the same boat instead of the lesser assumption that an unconscious circumstance would end with no slowdown.

Never heard of slowing down when not paying attention to cause that.


You're applying intuitions that seem broken in this case. I've never heard of unconsciously flying, but if that's happening, I don't see why there wouldn't be unconscious slowdown as well.

I also don't see how "When you're unconscious you have reactions so high that you don't need to slow down" is the lesser assumption.
 
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But they didn't. As I pointed out, they entered hundreds of kilometers away from the enemies. And there's no known interaction with the mid-flight.
I outright said avoided. It's a very, very different outcome if they landed randomly or moved hundreds of kilometres away from this enemy by choice. Given that they circled the planet, the latter is entirely possible.
And there's no demonstration of the enemies having high reaction speeds.
Ok, then. Like I said, I didn't get an answer for this before.
That idea you're voicing goes against the site's standards, as discussed extensively in these threads.

If you think it should work that way, make a thread to try changing the site's standards, don't make those standards be applied inconsistently.
It claims you shouldn't scale if there are no obstacles and that characters can decelerate. We get no indication of either here (it frankly is the opposite), so the burden of proof to show that this actually meets the standards is just as much on you as the OP. Even AKM in the previous thread said.
  • These things are normal, and are assumed to be the case in any scenario until abnormal proof indicates otherwise.
Kuki has abnormal proof.

What we should look into is how the mechanics of space-travel work in this verse. Can they simply sense planets to land on, or do they know the exact spatial coordinates? I think that's a very important factor to consider, and I'd appreciate it if either you or Kuki could get back to me on this.
 
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What we should look into is how the mechanics of space-travel work in this verse. Can they simply sense planets to land on, or do they know the exact spatial coordinates? I think that's a very important factor to consider, and I'd appreciate it if either you or Kuki could get back to me on this.
As far as this feat goes, it’s never totally confirmed if the exact spatial coordinates are known rather than just the basic general vicinity of the planet, but this is what at best would be known instead of the locations on the geography of the planet.
 
If they know exactly where not to go or where to go on the planet based on something like a person, then I think Agnaa is right here.

They could easily decelerate and manoeuvre around the enemy if that were the case.
 
I outright said avoided. It's a very, very different outcome if they landed randomly or moved hundreds of kilometres away from this enemy by choice. Given that they circled the planet, I strongly doubt it's the former.

I would not call that circling the planet. They had a smoothly trajectory coming from off-camera. That doesn't look like a mid-flight readjustment upon seeing the enemies they have to avoid.

No it really doesn't. It claims you shouldn't scale if there are no obstacles and that characters can decelerate. We get no indication of either here (it frankly is the opposite), so the burden of proof is very much on you.

While the wording on the page isn't that explicit, the threads had this topic brought up, and it was concluded that the burden of proof is to show that there are obstacles and that characters did not decelerate. Which hasn't been sufficiently demonstrated here.

I don't think the slight indication of "They had a thing to do at their destination!" counts as proof that they didn't slow down until they were 1m away from the surface.

I would also like to remind you and others in this thread that, for their reactions to scale to the full value, they would have to be moving at full-speed and not perceive an obstacle until it was 1m away, before avoiding it. If they slowed down a certain amount beforehand, or if they reacted from a larger distance, that would reduce the amount they scale to.
 
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