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Cardfight!! Vanguard Speed Re-Upgrade
- Thread starter ProfessorKukui4Life
- Start date
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Oh I was unaware, although his attacks were still stated to be light speed and blitzed multiple units.
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- Thread starter
- #83
"Speed of light" is ambiguous and can mean literally any level of FTL or MFTL for being such a bloody big tier.
Theres a reason why Dypso for instance isn't downgraded despite being the only character in DBS cited outright to move at the "speed of light".
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This isn't the same as with Dypso. Kai stated the attack itself moved at the speed of light. It's pretty straight forward, and does not mean ftl or mftl.
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- #85
And Dypso was stated himself to move at the speed of light. What difference is there between these?
And even if you can find one, we do not take speed of light as a means to counter something being at whatever high degree of FTL. The speed tier is hilariously huge and any degree of it falls under that.
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Dragon ball not only is irrelevant to what we're discussion, also has plenty of feats superior to ftl before he even stated that.
The attack is stated to move at light speed. Its as straight forward as you can get.
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- #88
It isn't. Its an example of a case where "Speed of light" isn't an argument at all for a downgrade.
And so is this with several universe crossing feats.
It isn't straight forward. We don't use speed of light to downgrade speed here.
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Travel speed
It's not a downgrade, they have no reaction feats of that level to begin with.
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- #91
Reactions are coming from the travel speed, which have reason(s) as said before to not slow. Either way, this isn't relevant. Speed of light isn't used to downgrade anything here, because "speed of light" isn't confined to just that.
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And this is why the downgrade was necessary, they don't have any reaction feats in battle to support an upgrade.
Speed of light is defined as that. I'm not sure where you're getting this misinformation. It's pretty straight forward.
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I have to work so please provide reaction feats to support them scaling.
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- #94
Which is your headcanon for thinking the attacks have set speed. They don't.
It isn't. Speed of light doesn't mean limited to light speed here.
Even then, Kamui's Units already show themselves reacting to it before it hits them as they put their arms up to cover, so it's still not an anti feat.
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Speed of light means speed of light. lol
Dyspo was said to be "faster than light" which can be any amount faster. But speed of light is one fixed value.
Also, currently the units have MHS+ attack speed for their lightning attacks, so if they don't have natural lightning, that needs to change as well.
Dyspo was said to be "faster than light" which can be any amount faster. But speed of light is one fixed value.
Also, currently the units have MHS+ attack speed for their lightning attacks, so if they don't have natural lightning, that needs to change as well.
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- #96
Either way, it's not an anti feat since it was reacted against.
This was part of why the lightning feats aren't counter arguments at all. We don't take lightning as a fixed value, or else there'd be no characters on this site who wield lightning that would be higher than MHS speed.
Plus, it would have to assume these lightning based attacks are natural lightning to stay at a fixed value in the first place.
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- #97
By the way, I seem to remember being told earlier that speed statistics won't deviate between each other as long as calc stacking isn't attempted or the character isn't under any circumstance to use a different speed.
This would be correct?
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What about the clip Quan showed where they couldn't react to it.
I am just unearthing an inconsistency in the pages. Because the page currently treats the lightning as real lightning. So if it is not, then that needs to be corrected accordingly.
I am not sure if I understand your statement correctly, but we do not use calc stacking because we don't generally assume that the character is using the same speed as they did in some other feat and also because it leads to inflation more often than not. If that doesn't answer your question, then I probably didn't understand your question correctly.
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Well in that case then I agree with AKM. We should remove the lightning attack speed rating as well. Except for Kai's light speed lightning.
Light speed is light speed. If it was faster he would have stated such.
In the scan I posted they don't even flinch. They're literally blitzed by the lightning.
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- #100
"Dont even flinch"
Again, wrong. They are in a defending position before the lightning hits them.
Which means they reacted.
Another point by the way that you probably left out is that Kai's attack with Vermillion went unguarded against Kamui's Units, which makes reacting or dodging not necessarily needed for they are letting the attack through.
So either you take them being in a defending stance before the attack hits as them reacting, or them not guarding the attack as letting it through on purpose, intentfully not offering resistance, and thus negating the blitz.
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Kai himself says the couldn't react. There's no feats in series proving they could.
Also note that this is supposed to be a super fast attack. If lightspeed is impressive and too much then how would mftl reaction speed be valid?
Also note that this is supposed to be a super fast attack. If lightspeed is impressive and too much then how would mftl reaction speed be valid?
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- #102
Where.....did he ever say such a thing?
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First off, our lightning page states that lightning needs to meet the right criteria of real lighting, so unless you guys can prove those units shoot real lightning, you cannot use it as an argument.
Secondly, is that even what that kid says in the japanese version? Because if he says something else then it's pointless to argue they can't react to lightspeed.
Even if that's what he says is legitimate, it's not like the monsters can actively dodge when playing the card game. A bit earlier in the video, the kid actually says the reason his opponents can't guard against his attack is because they don't have enough monsters. Unless it's proven monsters in the card game can naturally dodge attacks on their own, them not reacting to that lightspeed attack isn't an argument because the rules of the game.
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Considering the timeframe of the landing scene, we already determined that the reactions from them aren’t slow.
"Their reactions are Superhuman" is not equivalent to "Their reactions are MFTL+", and the former is not evidence for the latter.
And this is problematic because if a character has for any reason a justification to not slowdown, then how is their full speed ever gonna be able to be used?
The reasons to not have slowdown wouldn't be "Because they REALLY want to get there quickly" it'd be "Because they weren't anywhere near their intended destination" or "They had no intended destination and were flying across the universe aimlessly". Stuff that actually dismisses the possibility of slowdown.
"Their reactions are Superhuman" is not equivalent to "Their reactions are MFTL+", and the former is not evidence for the latter.
And this is problematic because if a character has for any reason a justification to not slowdown, then how is their full speed ever gonna be able to be used?
The reasons to not have slowdown wouldn't be "Because they REALLY want to get there quickly" it'd be "Because they weren't anywhere near their intended destination" or "They had no intended destination and were flying across the universe aimlessly". Stuff that actually dismisses the possibility of slowdown.
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I checked, and he does. It's even more specific, if anything.
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That's ok, but it still doesn't change my other point that the monsters aren't going to dodge the attack because it's the games rules. It's like seeing to monsters in Yu-Gi-Oh battle and once the character declared an attack, the other monster started dodging and straight up avoids the attack. That's not how it works to my knowledge.
If the monster can naturally dodge these attacks while playing the card game, then the it can be used as an anti-feat, but if the opposing player has to activate a card and guard against the attack than it's useless to talk about it.
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The units only battle at the speed at which the cardfighters command them to. It is very rare to see them fighting outside of cardfights.
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Yes, that's a part of what I mean. They can activate blocks and such but it's all depending on the players. Due to game mechanics any attack can be blocked with enough defense. They're typically guarding before the attack starts though.
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In series, the player can use a card during an attack to block it. The same humans who can fight and react to the same units in person.
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Well you can defend with the cards in your hand. The cards have different power levels which determines if the attack is fully blocked or not.
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Unless I misunderstood your question.
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There's a lot of variables that come into play tbh.
15:36 here's a visual of what I'm referring to.
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In that scan Blaster Blade attack. Kai played a card to block it. Then aichi got a boost to make the attack stronger.
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I agree, but the consistency of the speed in the verse is also relevant imo.
