ben10(omnitrix) Immeasurable speed downgrade

[Reiner04]

In anycase, it's better to know the differences in arguments or where is ur position within crt.

If ur position is that bigbang is not Immeasurable speed regardless if it's pure explosion then that's that ig. Can't argue against something like that. But I'd appreciate if it gets acknowledged that there are others who thinks that moving bigbang, is immeasurable for reason that it crossed and created temporal dimensions while expanding. Thank you.

 

[Quintessence_PE]

Wasn't the Big Bang litterally refused as a Creation feat before like @Reiner04 said, but as an energy wave? That goes against the entire argument of the CRT.
Also how would you explain Ben dodging the attack which has already been struck, which btw, fills the Immesurable speed requirements

we discussed this issue pages ago, stop writing without reading the thread

 

[Lloydblitzed]

we discussed this issue pages ago, stop writing without reading the thread

Stop repeating stuff when you can't answer my previous questions...

 

[Quintessence_PE]

Stop repeating stuff when you can't answer my previous questions...

I have answered your questions, but your only goal is to annoy me, so I will not answer you further.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

I have answered your questions, but your only goal is to annoy me, so I will not answer you further.

You did not answer anything, and I don't understand your reaction speed feat from your main argument

 

[Georredannea15]

I was told that the currently accepted thing is that there are multiple temporal dimensions that these characters are moving through at once- or, rather, that they react to something that does. Is this not correct?

Their claim is that an explosion in timeless space that created the entire multiverse would be immeasurable.

So here's what they're saying;

This explosion in timeless space created the entire multiverse and timelines, which means that this explosion can move along all timelines. So the explosion is immeasurable because it created the whole multiverse.


@Deagonx @Mr. Bambu I know, normally users are can't tagging staff but I saw that you two were confused in the OP's case. Don't get me wrong, I only tagged you both to clarify this and "in my opinion" any explosion in a space without time that creates a multiverse should therefore not be immeasurable, that would basically be an assumption, but the decision here is yours.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

USER=835]@Deagonx[/USER] @Mr. Bambu I know, normally users are can't tagging staff but I saw that you two were confused in the OP's case. Don't get me wrong, I only tagged you both to clarify this and "in my opinion" any explosion in a space without time that creates a multiverse should therefore not be immeasurable, that would basically be an assumption, but the decision here is yours.

Pretty sure he dodged the explosion when it was strucking him

 

[Georredannea15]

Pretty sure he dodged the explosion when it was strucking him

If this bigbang is not immeasurable speed, then reacting to this bigbang is not immeasurable speed. So it doesn't make any difference if he reacts to it.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Their claim is that an explosion in timeless space that created the entire multiverse would be immeasurable.

So here's what they're saying;

This explosion in timeless space created the entire multiverse and timelines, which means that this explosion can move along all timelines. So the explosion is immeasurable because it created the whole multiverse.


@Deagonx @Mr. Bambu I know, normally users are can't tagging staff but I saw that you two were confused in the OP's case. Don't get me wrong, I only tagged you both to clarify this and "in my opinion" any explosion in a space without time that creates a multiverse should therefore not be immeasurable, that would basically be an assumption, but the decision here is yours.

It's not "normally", you just physically can't. You receive a ping if we type out a user's name like you just did (for example, this will show up as "Mr. Bambu mentioned you": @Georredannea15), we don't get a ping if a normal user does it.

I don't consider the OP to be a valid Immeasurable feat. Timeless void feats have been thrown out for some time now.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

If this bigbang is not immeasurable speed, then reacting to this bigbang is not immeasurable speed. So it doesn't make any difference if he reacts to it.

Still disagree with your reasoning because of what was said on page 7 and before

 

[Georredannea15]

It's not "normally", you just physically can't. You receive a ping if we type out a user's name like you just did (for example, this will show up as "Mr. Bambu mentioned you": @Georredannea15), we don't get a ping if a normal user does it.

Uhhh... I get it now. Thanks brother

I don't consider the OP to be a valid Immeasurable feat. Timeless void feats have been thrown out for some time now.

So, this was basically the one justification for immeasurable speed feat of the verse. Just that.

 

[Firestorm808]

It's not "normally", you just physically can't. You receive a ping if we type out a user's name like you just did (for example, this will show up as "Mr. Bambu mentioned you": @Georredannea15), we don't get a ping if a normal user does it.

I don't consider the OP to be a valid Immeasurable feat. Timeless void feats have been thrown out for some time now.

To reiterate, the previously accepted rating had nothing to do with timeless voids. It's about the energy wave crossing multiple temporal dimensions.

 

[Georredannea15]

To reiterate, the previously accepted rating had nothing to do with timeless voids. It's about the energy wave crossing multiple temporal dimensions.

So this is basically creating a multiverse in a timeless space and the timelines within it. The OP says that this is fundamentally different from what you are saying.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

So this is basically creating a multiverse in a timeless space and the timelines within it. The OP says that this is fundamentally different from what you are saying.

The OP says the Bigbang is creation feat instead of an energy wave...

 

[Georredannea15]

The OP says the Bigbang is creation feat instead of an energy wave...

It is basically a creation, this wave of "energy" creates it. The entire multiverse and timelines were created because of the bigbang.

 

[Quintessence_PE]

It is basically a creation, this wave of "energy" creates it. The entire multiverse and timelines were created because of the bigbang.

Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. I think I've explained it very clearly

 

[Deagonx]

I'll switch to neutral for now and wait for further input.

 

[Firestorm808]

@Mr. Bambu

To preface, let's look at an accepted inverse example: The DBH Chaos Ball. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Chaos_Ball

Accepted Explanation Page: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Immeasurable_Speed_Explanation_(Dragon_Ball_Heroes)

Immeasurable with its power (Upon appearing the Chaos Ball instantly spread its influence over the entire infinite multiverse, across part, present and future, absorbing all timelines. It absorbs all existence, along with Time Nest and Crack of Time, leaving behind a timeless void.)

In a similar manner but with the opposite effect, the energy wave expanded and absorbed the entire hyper-timeline structure, leaving behind a timeless void.

The current thread scenario deals with the opposite direction happening.

The previously accepted rating had nothing to do with timeless voids. It's about the energy wave crossing multiple temporal dimensions.

 

[Reiner04]

To reiterate, the previously accepted rating had nothing to do with timeless voids. It's about the energy wave crossing multiple temporal dimensions.

I believe Bambu is saying he agree with downgrade of solid rating but fine with possibly or atleast that's what I'm getting from his messages.

I agree with the downgrade, the rating is fine for different reasons and should be listed as such, I reckon. I haven't read the back discussion though, so I may switch: for now, as long as my position is known, all is well.

To be clear, I agree with Deagon that the case presented by the OP is very strange. But if they have feats currently accepted as "possibly" that would net Immeasurable anyways, I'm happy to leave it at "possibly" since the OP only tackles the for-sure rating.

 

[Quintessence_PE]

@Mr. Bambu

To preface, let's look at an accepted inverse example: The DBH Chaos Ball. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Chaos_Ball

Accepted Explanation Page: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Immeasurable_Speed_Explanation_(Dragon_Ball_Heroes)

Immeasurable with its power (Upon appearing the Chaos Ball instantly spread its influence over the entire infinite multiverse, across part, present and future, absorbing all timelines. It absorbs all existence, along with Time Nest and Crack of Time, leaving behind a timeless void.)

In a similar manner but with the opposite effect, the energy wave expanded and absorbed the entire hyper-timeline structure, leaving behind a timeless void.

The current thread scenario deals with the opposite direction happening.

"1. Mechikabura's Black Hole/Chaos Ball sucked everything (past, present and future) into himself (which is why it has 2-A range). We have two characters, Xeno Trunks and Chronoa, both reacting to its action before they were even caught in it. Returning to three points above, both Xeno Trunks and Chronoa demonstrated the ability to physically fly beyond time and now they reacted to a black hole that sucked everything on 2-A scale (past, present and future, all of time) which would further support that the DBH cast have obtained Immeasurable speed."

"which would further support that the DBH cast have obtained Immeasurable speed."

there is not a single immeasurable speed argument for dbhs, there are multiple arguments, and these are quite different topics from yours
What you say is a support for dbhs, not the main cause of immeasurable speed

 

[Georredannea15]

@Mr. Bambu

To preface, let's look at an accepted inverse example: The DBH Chaos Ball. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Chaos_Ball

Accepted Explanation Page: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Immeasurable_Speed_Explanation_(Dragon_Ball_Heroes)

Immeasurable with its power (Upon appearing the Chaos Ball instantly spread its influence over the entire infinite multiverse, across part, present and future, absorbing all timelines. It absorbs all existence, along with Time Nest and Crack of Time, leaving behind a timeless void.)

In a similar manner but with the opposite effect, the energy wave expanded and absorbed the entire hyper-timeline structure, leaving behind a timeless void.

The current thread scenario deals with the opposite direction happening.

Yes, this is not the only context and basis in the DB. It's basically the only thing on the description page, but Xeno goku travels through the timelines in DBH with him pure speed (he even going beyond these with him speed) and the other characters scale from this. Well, it's just an example, DB has some of supports for this.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Yes, this is not the only context and basis in the DB. It's basically the only thing on the description page, but Xeno goku travels through the timelines in DBH with him pure speed (he even going beyond these with him speed,) and where the other characters scale from this. Well, it's just an example, DB has some of supports for this.

And reaction speed doesn't count as "pure speed" ? That's new

 

[Reiner04]

"1. Mechikabura's Black Hole/Chaos Ball sucked everything (past, present and future) into himself (which is why it has 2-A range). We have two characters, Xeno Trunks and Chronoa, both reacting to its action before they were even caught in it. Returning to three points above, both Xeno Trunks and Chronoa demonstrated the ability to physically fly beyond time and now they reacted to a black hole that sucked everything on 2-A scale (past, present and future, all of time) which would further support that the DBH cast have obtained Immeasurable speed."

there is not a single immeasurable speed argument for dbhs, there are multiple arguments, and these are quite different topics from yours

Just to be sure, are u arguing consistency of the bigbang feat? Or the rating of the feat? I've said it many times that there's lack of well known position or points of disagreement in crt to work on.

In anycase, it's better to know the differences in arguments or where is ur position within crt.

If ur position is that bigbang is not Immeasurable speed regardless if it's pure explosion then that's that ig. Can't argue against something like that. But I'd appreciate if it gets acknowledged that there are others who thinks that moving bigbang, is immeasurable for reason that it crossed and created temporal dimensions while expanding. Thank you.

 

[Georredannea15]

And reaction speed doesn't count as "pure speed" ? That's new

The point is not to "react" to the bigbang, the main problem here is that the bigbang is not immeasurable speed just because it created the entire multiverse and the timelines within it. This will be the last time I will tell you this, no need to go round in circles.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

"1. Mechikabura's Black Hole/Chaos Ball sucked everything (past, present and future) into himself (which is why it has 2-A range). We have two characters, Xeno Trunks and Chronoa, both reacting to its action before they were even caught in it. Returning to three points above, both Xeno Trunks and Chronoa demonstrated the ability to physically fly beyond time and now they reacted to a black hole that sucked everything on 2-A scale (past, present and future, all of time) which would further support that the DBH cast have obtained Immeasurable speed."

there is not a single immeasurable speed argument for dbhs, there are multiple arguments, and these are quite different topics from yours

According to the OP creater aka you, this wouldn't work as:

They have this speed because they are reacting to the bigbang, not travelling at pure speed between time dimensions.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

The point is not to "react" to the bigbang, the main problem here is that the bigbang is not immeasurable speed just because it created the entire multiverse and the timelines within it. This will be the last time I will tell you this, no need to go round in circles.

Ye and wasn't Ben 10 litterally struck by that big bang while instanly dodging it?

 

[Quintessence_PE]

Ye and wasn't Ben 10 litterally struck by that big bang while instanly dodging it?

The point here is that the explosion is not an immeasurable speed. Why don't you understand that?

 

[Lloydblitzed]

The point here is that the explosion is not an immeasurable speed. Why don't you understand that?

Why are you bringing up reactions and saying its not like pure speed then lol?

 

[Quintessence_PE]

Why are you bringing up reactions and saying its not like pure speed then lol?

So, they're not travelling between timelines, they're just reacting to this explosion.
That's what I was trying to tell you.

 

[Huesito88]

The point here is that the explosion is not an immeasurable speed. Why don't you understand that?

Lloyd is mixing up some of the justification it wasn't accepted for that reason in the previous thread (the whole attacking visual of Ben 10)

 

[Reiner04]

Lloyd is mixing up some of the justification it wasn't accepted for that reason in the previous thread (the whole attacking visual of Ben 10)

Yeah previous thread which was arguing that bigbang is creation hax was rejected. That actually lead to a whole discussion rule thing infact. Bigbang explosion is just that. An explosion and expansion of spacetime.

 

[Firestorm808]

@DarkDragonMedeus

Your input is appreciated, as you took part in the original thread. Based on the context below, has your opinion on the Hyper-Timeline Energy Wave having Immeasurable speed changed? If so, why?

@Ultima_Reality Your input is also appreciated.

Objective: We are assigning speed to the energy wave that creates and traverses across the entire hyper-timeline structure.

The higher-dimensional energy wave simultaneously created and traversed infinite upon infinite standard timelines and hyper-timeline temporal dimension layers (past, present, future, etc.).

The reasoning isn't that "moves in void = immeasurable" it's that "moves across many temporal dimensions = immeasurable"

This lines up with the site definition: Immeasurable (Movement unbound from the flow of linear time, which cannot be measured. Given that S = D/T, if T is undefined, the speed formula cannot be applied. This is the same reason why multiple temporal dimensions also grant immeasurable speed.

When we look at precedent, we have an accepted inverse example: The DBH Chaos Ball. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Chaos_Ball

Accepted Explanation Page: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Immeasurable_Speed_Explanation_(Dragon_Ball_Heroes)

Immeasurable with its power (Upon appearing the Chaos Ball instantly spread its influence over the entire infinite multiverse, across part, present and future, absorbing all timelines. It absorbs all existence, along with Time Nest and Crack of Time, leaving behind a timeless void.)

In a similar manner but with the opposite effect, the energy wave expanded and absorbed the entire hyper-timeline structure, leaving behind a timeless void.

The current thread scenario deals with the opposite direction happening.

Again, thank you for your time and input.

 

[Quintessence_PE]

@DarkDragonMedeus

Your input is appreciated, as you took part in the original thread. Based on the context below, has your opinion on the Hyper-Timeline Energy Wave having Immeasurable speed changed? If so, why?

Objective: We are assigning speed to the energy wave that creates and traverses across the entire hyper-timeline structure.

The higher-dimensional energy wave simultaneously created and traversed infinite upon infinite standard timelines and hyper-timeline temporal dimension layers (past, present, future, etc.).

The reasoning isn't that "moves in void = immeasurable" it's that "moves across many temporal dimensions = immeasurable"

This lines up with the site definition: Immeasurable (Movement unbound from the flow of linear time, which cannot be measured. Given that S = D/T, if T is undefined, the speed formula cannot be applied. This is the same reason why multiple temporal dimensions also grant immeasurable speed.

When we look at precedent, we have an accepted inverse example: The DBH Chaos Ball. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Chaos_Ball

Accepted Explanation Page: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Immeasurable_Speed_Explanation_(Dragon_Ball_Heroes)

Immeasurable with its power (Upon appearing the Chaos Ball instantly spread its influence over the entire infinite multiverse, across part, present and future, absorbing all timelines. It absorbs all existence, along with Time Nest and Crack of Time, leaving behind a timeless void.)

In a similar manner but with the opposite effect, the energy wave expanded and absorbed the entire hyper-timeline structure, leaving behind a timeless void.

The current thread scenario deals with the opposite direction happening.

Again, thank you for your time and input.

The reason why Immeasurable Speed is given is because the omnitrix was working before the multiverse was created. The fact that this explosion creates time does not mean that the explosion is faster than the time continuum. This is a simple creation of spacetime, and basically the explosion's creation of all spacetime and the multiverse is just a range achievement.
As i said above, since these feats are not immeasurable speed, this reaction speed shouldn't be immeasurable speed and it should be removed.
The fact that the Omnitrix is reacting to this explosion, a big bang that created space-time, should not imply immeasurable speed. It does not matter whether this explosion created a hypertimeline or whether it was high-dimensional, because regardless of these dimensions, it represents a feat of creation and cannot be considered as having occurred faster than time. Additionally, there are other aspects of this scene that do not make sense and contribute to its overall incoherence.

"1. Mechikabura's Black Hole/Chaos Ball sucked everything (past, present and future) into himself (which is why it has 2-A range). We have two characters, Xeno Trunks and Chronoa, both reacting to its action before they were even caught in it. Returning to three points above, both Xeno Trunks and Chronoa demonstrated the ability to physically fly beyond time and now they reacted to a black hole that sucked everything on 2-A scale (past, present and future, all of time) which would further support that the DBH cast have obtained Immeasurable speed."

"which would further support that the DBH cast have obtained Immeasurable speed."

there is not a single immeasurable speed argument for dbhs, there are multiple arguments, and these are quite different topics from yours
What you say is a support for dbhs, not the main cause of immeasurable speed

 

[Reiner04]

Current staff opinions and position;

1. Immeasurable speed due to energy wave creating all of tineline and hypertimeline as well as transversing it: @Firestorm808
2. Agree with removal of solid immeasurable but fine with possibly immeasurable rating: @Mr. Bambu
3. Neutral: @Deagonx

 

[Quintessence_PE]

Agree with removal of solid immeasurable but fine with possibly immeasurable rating: @Mr. Bambu

I don't consider the OP to be a valid Immeasurable feat. Timeless void feats have been thrown out for some time now.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I still think Firestorm makes sense.

 

[Hellformer]

Atp no staff totally agrees with the thread, it's either disagree, neutral or make some changes.

 

[Firestorm808]

I still think Firestorm makes sense.

Thank you for your time and input.

 

[Reiner04]

@Quintessence_PE Last time i put him in the agree with complete downgrade (because of what u said, that he agrees with complete downgrade, that no immeasurable speed, not even possibly) despite thinking/knowing that bambu is fine with possibly rating. And also that i just wanted it get concluded either side so i decided to push for deagonx 3rd point, i tagged Bambu for it. But he said he agrees with op and deagonx but has specified that he agrees for it to be downgraded to possibly rating, just like before it. I think you're misunderstanding Bambu answer. Unless he decided to switch the opinion based on something but just hasn't specified it. I have never ever liked playing votes smh

Current justification should be removed but finds Current rating fine due to hypertimeline: @Mr. Bambu (overall agree with downgrade ig?)

I agree with the downgrade, the rating is fine for different reasons and should be listed as such, I reckon. I haven't read the back discussion though, so I may switch: for now, as long as my position is known, all is well.

To be clear, I agree with Deagon that the case presented by the OP is very strange. But if they have feats currently accepted as "possibly" that would net Immeasurable anyways, I'm happy to leave it at "possibly" since the OP only tackles the for-sure rating.

 

[Quintessence_PE]

Ultima said it will come to this issue so we keep waiting

If an explosion that creates a hypertimeline is immeasurable speed, then that will be the end of the matter, but if ultima says otherwise, then that will change.

The only thing that needs to be done now is for ultima to make a cool entrance here.