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Cal's Base Sonic CRT

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Zamasu_Chan

Zamasu_Chan

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Cal wrote this, I won't participate much but here goes his CRT.

So recently, Sonic has been upgraded to scale to the power of 4 Chaos Emeralds due to beating Chaos 4, with others beating Chaos 2 and Chaos 1.

Now that's normally okay. You beat a character, you scale to a character. Easy, right?

Well, there's a major problem with that, and that's that the franchise has no idea how to treat Chaos. The most consistent form the characters have been matched with is Chaos 0, the one that absorbed zero Chaos Emeralds. This is the case in Sonic Battle, where it's Chaos 0 that the cast is portrayed equal to (and while this is pure game mechanics, Chaos 0 hits the hardest out of everyone in the game). Sonic Adventure 2 Battle portrays Chaos 0 as equal to Knuckles and Rouge, despite SA having Knux beat Chaos 2. Then Generations comes out and has Sonic beat Perfect Chaos despite Super Sonic being required to take him down. Yet in Forces, despite everyone seemingly having gotten stronger, it's Chaos 0 that people are scared of.

And that's the thing. Nobody takes Chaos 0 lightly in any appearance he shows up in, despite the fact that he should be fodder to Big the Cat if we're being realistic.

And being honest, scaling to higher Chaos forms creates a massive matter of inconsistencies. For example, Cheese, a Chao, scales to Sonic, who according to the profiles is Chaos 4 level. Chaos is the Chao's god. Yet this random Chao is equal to an amped version of its god? I don't think so. And it also leads to some other inconsistencies, like Eggman's casual robots that he pilots, like the Egg Mobiles, or things like his fodder Eggrobos (and not the one from Lost World) being stronger than his doomsday weapons like the one in Sonic Advance 3. That would be like if a TIE Fighter wound up being stronger than the Death Star. It's a massive inconsistency.

People are going to bring up the argument of "Oh, Chaos 0 must've just gotten stronger over time!" No, that's pure headcanon. This is never stated once in the series, and it's ridiculous to say that a character somehow became stronger than he was when he absorbed four godlike items despite nothing saying he got stronger.

The cast should only scale from Chaos 0, not Chaos 4. And if this is the only feat they have that scales to the power of an Emerald, they should be scaled to the baseline planetary statements of Emerl and the other numerous planet busting statements like the one in Riders.
 
I agree with this, I was going to address the over the place circular scaling in more detail eventually, but this is a decent start.
 
@LordGriffon, not really. Most of his power is dependent on the Chaos Emeralds.
 
"The most consistent form the characters have matched with is Chaos 0, the one that absorbed zero Chaos Emeralds."

Except throughout most of Chao 0's appearances, barring Sonic Battle and his dubiously canon appearance in Sonic Adventure 2, Chaos 0 is treated as a pushover. • In Sonic Adventure, Sonic fodderizes Chaos 0 and proceeds to defeat his subsequent transformations throughout the rest of the game. • In Sonic Forces, Chaos 0 is one shot by Classic Sonic, and then in a later scene a literal army of Chaos 0s is dealt with by the whole cast and a bunch of background characters. • Then of course we have Generations, where Sonic defeats Perfect Chaos, who is massively superior to Chaos 0

Sonic Battle and SA2 can be dismissed as outliers unless the theory that Chaos 0 became stronger from his SA appearance holds weight.

As for Chaos 0 "not being taken lightly", the actual feats/showings should take precedence over the character being hyped up by statements in this case, or else we have Infinite scaling above Solaris due to being stated to be "Sonic's most powerful enemy yet".

"And being honest, scaling to higher Chaos forms creates a massive matter of inconsistencies. For example, Cheese, a Chao, scales to Sonic, who according to our profiles is Chaos 4 level. Chaos is the Chao's god. Yet this random Chao is equal to an amped version of its God? I don't think so."

This is an Argument from Incredulity. It's never explained why certain characters in the series are as strong as they are, but they've displayed the power levels through feats. Tails and Cream for example are diminutive, adolescent sidekicks yet they're shown capable of fighting on par with "all-powerful" fire demons and androids with millennia worth of combat data.

"And it also leads to some other inconsistencies, like Eggman's casual robots that he pilots, like the Egg Mobiles, or and things like his fodder Eggrobos being stronger than his doomsday weapons like the one in Sonic Advance 3. That would be like if a TIE Fighter wound up being stronger than the Death Star. It's a massive inconsistency."

First of all, no, random Eggrobos from Sonic 3 don't scale to the Emeralds. They're Low 6-B via scaling from Classic Sonic.

"The cast should only scale from Chaos 0, not Chaos 4. And if this is the only feat that scales to the the power of an Emerald, they should be downgraded to the baseline planetary statements of Emerl and the other numerous planet busting statements like in Riders."

I already addressed why Chaos 0 scaling to the cast is flawed, but Cal, you do realize that the characters fought Emerl while he was empowered by Chaos Emeralds, right? Even if them scaling to Chaos 1-4 was flawed, they'd still scale to the Emeralds via fighting Emerl.

So yeah, I disagree completely
 
strongly disagree with the downgrade, chaos 0 is not the only benchmark here to powerscale characters; user's points make the most sense here
 
Chaos 0 was still considered a threat to Knuckles in Sonic Adventure, and has persisted as a strong opponent in both Sonic Battle and Sonic Forces. And most if not all of Base Sonic's "Tier 5" feats are based on multiple steps of reverse power-scaling. But that's for another day.
 
Don't cover my points. If you cover anyone's points, cover the person that argued with you's points.

INB4 your arguements boil down to "You are wrong and my name is green"
 
And again with the "No Context" or "Case by Case scenarios". Megaman is Tier 5 based on multiple feats that are literally his own feats with no power up shenanigans. And Mario has a bunch of Tier 4 feats without power ups and constantly defeats Tier 4 bosses without the need for power ups. And Mario also has multiple Tier 2 feats in base form that are outliers, so his Tier 4 feats are actually his mid tier showings. Sonic also has a bunch of supposed Tier 5 stuff; when half of them are either a statement with no context rather than feats, aren't feats at all, or are performed by characters empowered by all 7 Emeralds and thus should be far above Base Sonic. Again, avoid talking about Mario on a Sonic thread whenever possible because it leads to bad blood a lot.

It's also obvious there's too many people who don't know what false equivalency or straw man even means. Also, don't use "colored names" as an argument.
 
Your best point is you got speculation of Tails being fearful of Chaos 0 and he was suffering PSTD.

Chaos 4 is beaten by base characters straight up.
 
Mephistus said:
Your best point is you got speculation of Tails being fearful of Chaos 0 and he was suffering PSTD.
Click to expand...
Despite the fact Tails has beaten Chaos 4 with no problem.Chaos 0 is looked down as almost a pushover to Sonic and the main cast.
 
Mario's feats are all from scaling. Sonic's feats are all from scaling. I fail to see the issue.

Bad blood or not, I know Cal is a Mario supporter and it's the easiest way to call him out on his double standard.
 
ShadowWarrior1999 said:
Chaos 0 would already scale to an Emerald since he fought Emerl who is powered by them.

So the scaling to 1.4 yottatons stays.
Click to expand...
You reaffirmed what I was talking about when it came to circular scaling. So Chaos 0 > Chaos 0? That doesn't make sense. Heck, Knuckles lost to single emerald Emerl at that, yet is Chaos 4 level. There's a lot of circular scaling going on in the series. And that's different from powerscaling.
 
Also, Chaos Emeralds are far too inconsistent to be taken seriously, and shouldn't be part of the power scaling chain for the feat of one Emeralds. Chaos Emeralds are 5-B based on one feat, when two or more struggled to do feats far less then that constantly. When a certain other verse has many of a "Common power source" and many of that same having many tier 4 feats, and yet people try to pass the hundreds of feats equals outlier but this feat isn't an outlier based on 1 feat followed by a whole bunch of backwards scaling.
 
You reaffirmed what I was talking about when it came to circular scaling. So Chaos 0 > Chaos 0? That doesn't make sense. Heck, Knuckles lost to single emerald Emerl at that, yet is Chaos 4 level. There's a lot of circular scaling going on in the series. And that's different from powerscaling.

No, Chaos 0 already is that level and emeralds boost him futher, plus Knuckles beat Chaos 2 in a 1-1 in a completely fair way
 
About Chaos. It's never stated that Chaos 0 is fodder. The only feats of him being fodderized is gameplay. I could level up my Pokemon team to lvl 100 and stomp the game but doesn't mean that Red no-diff'd Blue. With Forces, no, it's not just Tails suffering from PTSD. One, that's your own interpretation and purely headcanon. Two, Chaos 0 was capable of hurting Sonic as well as the others, and is treated on par with Zavok, Shadow, Metal Sonic, and Infinite. If you're saying that Chaos 0 was no-diff'd by the cast then you're saying Shadow and Metal Sonic get no-diff'd by the cast. There's undeniable inconsistencies here.
 
Provide statements or scans of Chaos 0 being stated to be fodder. All you're going on is the interpretation of Chaos 0 being fodder when he has several feats of him not being so.
 
It really doesn't need to be stated in game tbh when cutscenes and gameplay indicate he ain't that tough.SA Sonic beat him with next to no problem.
 
I did in my big comment?

Plus he being fodder doesn't matter, he simply scales to it in zero and the emeralds amp him further than that, no circular scaling here, plus the whole Shadow throwing his emerald in Battle because he was already using it's full power
 
Chaos 0 can still be able to fight people who can fight his stronger forms. Many people on this wiki downscale from their stronger forms. Chaos 0 isn't fodder, but he isn't tier 6 either.
 
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