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Yes but regardless there’s too much missing context that makes that a better alternative to scaling them to their actual fights.
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Bleach Tier 5 Scaling
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It's from Arc of course plus I agree with the OP also.Me just reaching chapter 5 and everyone agreed from +20minutes ago, am I just too slow
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That's contradicted by later statements.
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i forgot could you remind me?
also i forgot to mention this for fullbring ichigo, they sent kenpachi + other captains for the purpose of stopping ichigo if he decided to rebel wouldnt that imply that the soul society believes fullbring ichigo to be above kenpachi? they would also know how strong ichigo is considering they themselves added up their reiatsu for him as one of the novels stated they needed a huge amount of reiatsu to return ichigo to the power level he used to be at (which would be fkt ichigo as they cant sense him after that to know how strong he was).
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The thing with FKT/post Ulquiorra Ichigo is that he’s severely mentally nerfed. He has some statements indicating that he should be at a very high level, but is mentally nerfed self doesn’t really meet those expectations.
Also, iirc Unohana says “he has captain level reiatsu with half his cloak” and not “he’s equal to me with half his cloak”.
Also, iirc Unohana says “he has captain level reiatsu with half his cloak” and not “he’s equal to me with half his cloak”.
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what is your opinion about Sōkyoku? I don’t think we can come to a conclusion otherwise
EldemadeDityjon
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yea i reread that portion she was talking about captain level reiatsu, tho imo her take on captain level is something close to her own level (as she says we are similar in reiatsu right before that) or at least much higher than the usual(captain level has a lot of range as we know like sasakibe being captain tier and shikai ichigo folded him), as it wouldnt make sense for ichigo to be = captain level with half his power in bankai when in soul society he was = captain level while wounded when he met ukitake(ukitake didnt even say he is close he said this is without a doubt captain level reiatsu), and then trains with yoru then gets a x5 amp with bankai and then trains even more, he also uses his mask+black getsuga not to be able to do much to base ulq at start of hm to then matching base ulq in just bankai and overpowering him with his mask, he is def way beyond captain level at that point in the story in bankai, also AFTER she finds out this is just half his reiatsu she says he might be their only hope at defeating aizen(so ks has less to do with this as context was reiatsu) implying she believes he stands a chance against aizen (if he is mentally stable) + the fullbring stuff i mentioned about them sending kenny + more captains to stop fb ichigo when their goal was to restore his old power level (fkt ichigo). imo all this is enough for a possibly to scale when not nerfed mentally.
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Truth be told I am rather neutral about it at the moment.
I know that the novel is currently accepted as canon but using it as the basis for making so many characters Planet level when the only character suggested to be like that in the manga on the Shinigami's side is Bankai Yama makes me question it, given that Yama's is an over-time feat as well and Post-Timeskip Kenpachi is not suggested to be anywhere close to Yama in terms of power.
I mean, the list of supporting feats for the characters isn't exactly high when all we've got to go on is Yama.
Much of the novel being untranslated doesn't make me confident in it either.
There's not much I can do though if more staff want to base the scaling chains on the novel though. It's just my preference to rely on the manga more which never once suggests Kenpachi is remotely close to Planet level.
We dismiss Ichigo blocking the Sokyoku and destroying the Execution stands as outliers on his part, when the Sokyoku itself being Planet level could just be an outlier for the series and not worth upgrading so many characters to it.
EDIT: also the Sokyoku may only be planetary when it is being augmented dozens of times. Azashiro's spear could be superior just to the normal version of the Sokyoku.
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Yama's feat is more like DC rather than AP tho.
EldemadeDityjon
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If we just consider everything as outliers then bleach should be just downgraded to arrow level that should be fine.
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ZNT's passive energy output threatening all of SS is a DC feat as well as an AP feat for yama as focused and/or named attacks are far greater in potency than one's passive flow of spirit energy. This is shown in the FKT arc when yama's focused ennetsu jigoku was going to kill yama right on the spot and not even destroy FKT whereas an unfocused ennetsu jigoku released from weiss couldn't even incapacitate him and was also going to destroy an area many times the size of FKT and even threatened the world as implied by aizen.
So ZNT's mere existence threatening SS is just meant to hype up its power as this is an UNINTENTIONAL result of its overwhelming and nigh-uncontrollable power and would scale below ZNT's regular/focused attacks in AP. Whereas sokyoku threatening SS is probably an INTENTIONAL feat and may require a focused torrent of Spirit energy as you yourself argued.
So ZNT and SAFWY kenny can both be on the planet tier of power but ZNT's DC/range and AP >>>>>> SAFWY kenny's
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Also when we're given an objective statement like:
"Character A's power > Character B's power"
We assume that it takes any of B's amped STATES/TRANSFORMATIONS into account unless stated otherwise. For example, if beerus is stated to be stronger than vegeta by an irrefutable source, we assume that it takes his super saiyan transformations into account and not just base. This is no different to azashiro's spear > Sokyoku as the sok's amp is just a regular linear increase to its power (or it just using/coming close to its true power) and isn't anything special like senna using the blank's energy
"Character A's power > Character B's power"
We assume that it takes any of B's amped STATES/TRANSFORMATIONS into account unless stated otherwise. For example, if beerus is stated to be stronger than vegeta by an irrefutable source, we assume that it takes his super saiyan transformations into account and not just base. This is no different to azashiro's spear > Sokyoku as the sok's amp is just a regular linear increase to its power (or it just using/coming close to its true power) and isn't anything special like senna using the blank's energy
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I don't remember that being a rule on the site.
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He isn't saying that within the context of some-sort of rule on this Wiki.
What he's saying is, Logically we should assume when a statement like " A Characters Power > B Characters Power" is made it takes in account for all known stage's of that Power which in this case would be the full-power of the Sokyoku in the context of Azashiro's Spear.
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Ummmm we use this exact reasoning to scale:
0 espada yammy > any espada in their release states/2nd release
Butterfly aizen > bankai yama
Yhwach > any sternritter even in their volts (pre-aush)
I could go on lol...
So if we're to be consistent with the reasoning you used prior, then we'd have to remove the scaling justifications used on the profiles listed above and pretty much any character on this site who's scaling relies on statements like "Char A's power > Char B's power"
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Since that's not a rule, I don't agree that I have to assume that.
Don't assume I necessarily agree with all prior instances of it in use.
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Just because that isn't a "Rule" within the Wiki doesn't mean we can't assume it when it follows basic logic? that doesn't make any form of sense
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That depends on our interpretation of what is logical and what is reasonable to assume.
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...No? unless what you consider to be "Logical" is contradictory to what "Logic" is and within mine and Rebirth's case it doesn't while your's does.
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There's a couple more things in the OP that I don't agree with that I haven't gotten to yet like base Yhwach scaling above 7 Gremmy's or Bankai Yamamoto scaling above 7 Gremmy's. Or Pernida scaling in power to Post-Gremmy Kenpachi.
Not sure if it is worth getting into now though or later.
Not sure if it is worth getting into now though or later.
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Well if that's the case then I'd have expected you to be gung ho about it considering this way of justifying AP/speed ratings is pretty much everywhere on this site. Regardless:
Premise 1: Character A and B have no special attributes whatsoever. B has a transformation that amps his stats by 2X
Premise 2: Character A is stated to be more powerful than B despite B having free access to that 2X amp that's well within his character to use
Conclusion: Character A scales above B in his amped state
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Fair enough. We'll have to wait and see what the others say.
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I know my opinion doesn't really matter with this being accepted or not but i agree.
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isnt it accepted like this on the wiki : base yhwach>=yama >>cfyow byakuya>tybw byakuya>tybw bankai kenny>tybw shikai kenny>7 gremmys? also i dont agree with pernida too for now (i didnt read the entire doc )
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I'm just going off of the scaling chains described in the OP.
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I have another issue with Chapter 3 of the OP which I will try to address later tonight.
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Regarding Azashiro’s reishi spear, I think it’s fine to put it above the full yield of Solyoku for the fact that it “far surpasses” Sokyoku. So even if you thought that meant it out scaled “base Sokyoku” it would likely be relative to “peak Sokyoku” since it far surpasses whatever version of Sokyoku it outscales.
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sorry had a small accident
whats going on rn
whats going on rn
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I'll likely have time to leave a comment tonight on it.
What impact does nixing the 1000 x multiplier have?
What impact does nixing the 1000 x multiplier have?
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Nothing, scaling stays the same, values change
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Not to be overly pedantic but if the values change then the impact isn't 'nothing'. I get your point though.
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bump
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Threads don't need to be bumped if less than 24 hours have passed.
(Will be posting a bit later)
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